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unsui888
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Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility
#14382096 - 05/01/11 11:12 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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so let me first define what i'm referring to the will as. i tend to concur with harry frankfurt's notion of the will in that it is the desire that leads one towards the motivation to effectively act. what makes a "person" a person and unique from another human being (living corpse, whichever you prefer) or animals is the mere fact that they have second-order volitions, or the desire to will the action effectively. however, not all persons have freedom of the will (Harry Frankfurt gives the case of the unwilling, willing, and wanton addict to illustrate this point). Freedom of the will is not the same as freedom of action as we can have free will without having any freedom of action. Instead, it's simply having the will that you want to have in order to act effectively; you're free to constitute one desire as your will instead of another (conflicting) desire.
in the case of the unwilling addict (which some of you may me familiar with through your own experience as an addict), he/she tries to overcome desire for the desired drug, but fails to do so. There's conflicting desires, in which the unwilling addict wants the desire to refrain from drugs to constitute his/her will or to be effective (thus having a volition of the second-order; to want to will X). But since the desire that leads him to action is not the desire he/she wants, then the unwilling addict's will is not free.
if a person (such as the unwilling addict) has no freedom of the will, are they still to be held morally responsible for their actions? explain your thoughts...
as for me, whether the person has freedom of will or not, they should always be held responsible for their actions because the desire to use said drug is still a desire of their own, even though they may not want to identify with it. also, another question to think of is: why do some people, such as addicts, identify with one of their desires (such as refraining from drug use), while dismissing their conflicting desire as a desire that is not of their own?
thoughts brothers and sisters?
-------------------- "a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing" primus------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool
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g00ru
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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: unsui888]
#14382214 - 05/01/11 11:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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i think freedom of the will goes deeper than the desire to act. I equate the will with the attention. And what we focus our attention on is where our desire force (for lack of a better term) will gravitate towards. Imo we only have a certain amount of desire within us that we cannot get rid of, we can only shift it to different things. If you desire a car, a girlfriend, and money, you could shift that desire towards "higher" goals by focusing your attention more on music and art, or on your heart. The highest desire would be union with God, in my humble opinion.
The reason the attention is the source of our freedom is that it is the only aspect of our experience that appears to be totally self-inclusive and self-reflexive in its movement. When it is still and focusing on itself, this attention is known as being.
Most people think desire dictates where the attention goes, but in reality it's the other way around. When we have cluttered minds that are always chirping away, the attention is being dominated by stream of thoughts and desire, and this is when we are constrained and unfree. In the case of an addict it is a particularly viscous cycle of constraint. To me this is karma, because I believe the causes and effects stretch beyond this life.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: unsui888]
#14382248 - 05/01/11 11:57 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I don't consider intent as all-important. If a rattlesnake strikes my child, I will kill it whether it was being mean or just defending its territory.
A drunk driver generally has no intention of killing someone. They should still be convicted of murder IMO.
I do not care about who has ultimate responsibility. If you killed my child by firing a gun off on the Fourth of July in celebration or were a vicious gang-banger pulling a drive-by shooting the result is the same.
The gang-banger was conscious of what he was doing and the party reveler was not so conscious. So what? The loss of life and the pain is the same.
The same thing if a human was clinically retarded and killed someone. Why should he get a pass because his IQ is lower than average? Why I should I care if does not understand the ramifications of his actions?
I was playing racquetball last week and an opponent blasted me with the ball in a social game. I asked him if he did not see me in front of him attempting to clear the lane. No response. I asked two more times. No response except to repeat it was an accident. So, I said, you should have no problem when I 'accidentally' rip one into you.
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zoomfan
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if i undersand you correctly, your asking if even though there really is no freedom of will, should a person have to pay for their actions. my answer would be yes, with a big but. the justice system is acting as though will is free and is sort of a personal punishment. rather than what the accused deserves, the justice system should be focusing on what will actually help to both protect the world from this person and to help the person deal with the problems which caused the offense. i have been to prison and it is the most frustrated with, and ashamed ive ever been with my country, to think that people have to live that way for growing a plant, or having a bad day, etc i cant explain enough how ashamed i was, one minute i was a normal productive human being and the next thing my life was completely in the control of a bunch of dicks who like their jobs too much. i think prison is the worst possible solution even for people who will never be a productive member of society.
-------------------- Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.
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unsui888
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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: g00ru] 1
#14383188 - 05/01/11 03:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said: i think freedom of the will goes deeper than the desire to act. I equate the will with the attention. And what we focus our attention on is where our desire force (for lack of a better term) will gravitate towards. Imo we only have a certain amount of desire within us that we cannot get rid of, we can only shift it to different things. If you desire a car, a girlfriend, and money, you could shift that desire towards "higher" goals by focusing your attention more on music and art, or on your heart. The highest desire would be union with God, in my humble opinion.
The reason the attention is the source of our freedom is that it is the only aspect of our experience that appears to be totally self-inclusive and self-reflexive in its movement. When it is still and focusing on itself, this attention is known as being.
Most people think desire dictates where the attention goes, but in reality it's the other way around. When we have cluttered minds that are always chirping away, the attention is being dominated by stream of thoughts and desire, and this is when we are constrained and unfree. In the case of an addict it is a particularly viscous cycle of constraint. To me this is karma, because I believe the causes and effects stretch beyond this life.
i never said freedom of the will is simply the desire to act, rather it's the capacity to have the desire (that leads you to act effectively) be the desire that you want to will. there's preference, which implies reflection took place.
so, if my attention is on the TV screen, this dictates that my desire is to watch TV? what if i didn't want to watch TV, but had to because of a homework assignment, which is why my attention is on it? attention being the dictator for our desires seems implausible, unless you have a better example. but i'm not even sure where freedom of the will and moral responsibility come into play with what you're saying, so i'm not sure i see any relevance to your post with what i was asking...
-------------------- "a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing" primus------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool
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unsui888
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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: zoomfan]
#14383235 - 05/01/11 03:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zoomfan said: if i undersand you correctly, your asking if even though there really is no freedom of will, should a person have to pay for their actions. my answer would be yes, with a big but. the justice system is acting as though will is free and is sort of a personal punishment. rather than what the accused deserves, the justice system should be focusing on what will actually help to both protect the world from this person and to help the person deal with the problems which caused the offense. i have been to prison and it is the most frustrated with, and ashamed ive ever been with my country, to think that people have to live that way for growing a plant, or having a bad day, etc i cant explain enough how ashamed i was, one minute i was a normal productive human being and the next thing my life was completely in the control of a bunch of dicks who like their jobs too much. i think prison is the worst possible solution even for people who will never be a productive member of society.
i'm not interested in whether a person should be punished or not (i'm sorry for your past situation, but glad you're out of prison now)... rather whether this person should be held morally responsible for their actions if that person has a will, but it's not free in the sense that he has the will that he wants to have...
as i said, i think all people, whether they're unwilling, willing, etc. should be held responsible for their actions because regardless of whether that was the desire they wanted to constitute their will or not, their action was still a desire of their own (even though they don't want the desire to be their own)...
but say when it comes to mentally handicap people of the like, i'm not sure i extend my beliefs this far.part of me wants to say the mentally handicap should not be held responsible for their actions as they're not in the right state of mind. or maybe all "normal" people should be held morally responsible for their actions, while mentally handicap people should only be held responsible for their actions (rather than morally responsible)... is there even such a difference in being morally responsible VS responsible?
-------------------- "a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing" primus------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: unsui888]
#14383241 - 05/01/11 03:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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No its like if your attention is one the T.V., then your desires are being shaped by the T.V. program. Plus you're probably increasing your desire to watch T.V. in the future. If you don't really wanna be watching T.V. then its some other desire that's forcing you in that direction, which going to school is based on (like a job and money in the future which would be a desire for power and security).
And to answer your question, I do think we have free will, I think the will is synonymous with the attention and is generally controlled by desire, and so an addict is still responsible for his actions. He does ultimately have freedom of will, he's just lost his power to control his attention by being fixated on always getting a fix. Although, we are all controlled by conditioning in some way so maybe some legislative mercy would be in order depending on the case.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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deCypher



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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: unsui888]
#14383261 - 05/01/11 03:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
unsui888 said: if a person (such as the unwilling addict) has no freedom of the will, are they still to be held morally responsible for their actions? explain your thoughts...
If the addict originally made a free choice to use a highly addictive drug, then I'd say they are responsible for their subsequent addiction and actions resulting from their addiction.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: deCypher]
#14383269 - 05/01/11 03:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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What if the addict lives with his dependency not by personal choice, but because of a choice made in the past by his doctor?
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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The addict still (presumably) had the capability to research the addictiveness of the drug that the doctor wanted to prescribe and the ability to say no. It's not like the doctor strapped him or her down and forcibly injected them with opiates.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: deCypher]
#14383294 - 05/01/11 03:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Not many people have the proclivity for drug research possessed by most Shroomery members, and if you're in serious pain the natural inclination is to take the drug your doctor gives you to get rid of it.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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Sure, but none of that eliminates the responsibility incurred from freely making the choice to take the drug.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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unsui888
Embodied


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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: g00ru]
#14383395 - 05/01/11 04:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said: No its like if your attention is one the T.V., then your desires are being shaped by the T.V. program. Plus you're probably increasing your desire to watch T.V. in the future. If you don't really wanna be watching T.V. then its some other desire that's forcing you in that direction, which going to school is based on (like a job and money in the future which would be a desire for power and security).
if it's some other desire that's forcing me into action (watching TV), then does this imply the action is not free? regardless if another desire is forcing me into action or not, my present attention is still on the tv, and as you said this dictates my desire...
@decypher: i concur with your comments...
-------------------- "a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing" primus------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: unsui888]
#14383946 - 05/01/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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desire is a loop, it breeds more desire. I guess we should specify whether we're speaking about the original desire that lead you to watch T.V., or the new desires being inflamed by watching it (and all those commercials, ya know).
Your actions are only as free as the degree to which you have control over your cravings/desires imo. Otherwise you are a slave to the senses.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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unsui888
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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: g00ru]
#14384206 - 05/01/11 06:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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yes, this is why i distinguished what a will is apart from a desire... your will is the desire that motivates you to act effectively. your will is free when your will is the will you want to have...
so if we're only as free as how much control we have over our desires, then it seems like desires such as hunger, perhaps even sex, etc. are not freedoms of the will...? would you agree?
-------------------- "a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing" primus------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: unsui888]
#14384290 - 05/01/11 06:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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yeah i would, although i don't want to be free from my sex desire or my desire to create.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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unsui888
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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: g00ru]
#14384582 - 05/01/11 07:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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and just for future reference to people replying... i'm more interested in whether you think a person should be held morally responsible with regards to Harry Frankfurt's notion of freedom of the will...
-------------------- "a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing" primus------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes


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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: unsui888]
#14385066 - 05/01/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
unsui888 said:
Quote:
zoomfan said: if i undersand you correctly, your asking if even though there really is no freedom of will, should a person have to pay for their actions. my answer would be yes, with a big but. the justice system is acting as though will is free and is sort of a personal punishment. rather than what the accused deserves, the justice system should be focusing on what will actually help to both protect the world from this person and to help the person deal with the problems which caused the offense. i have been to prison and it is the most frustrated with, and ashamed ive ever been with my country, to think that people have to live that way for growing a plant, or having a bad day, etc i cant explain enough how ashamed i was, one minute i was a normal productive human being and the next thing my life was completely in the control of a bunch of dicks who like their jobs too much. i think prison is the worst possible solution even for people who will never be a productive member of society.
i'm not interested in whether a person should be punished or not (i'm sorry for your past situation, but glad you're out of prison now)... rather whether this person should be held morally responsible for their actions if that person has a will, but it's not free in the sense that he has the will that he wants to have...
as i said, i think all people, whether they're unwilling, willing, etc. should be held responsible for their actions because regardless of whether that was the desire they wanted to constitute their will or not, their action was still a desire of their own (even though they don't want the desire to be their own)...
but say when it comes to mentally handicap people of the like, i'm not sure i extend my beliefs this far.part of me wants to say the mentally handicap should not be held responsible for their actions as they're not in the right state of mind. or maybe all "normal" people should be held morally responsible for their actions, while mentally handicap people should only be held responsible for their actions (rather than morally responsible)... is there even such a difference in being morally responsible VS responsible?
Speaking of moral responsibility removed from consequences is almost completely meaningless.
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unsui888
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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: Sleepwalker]
#14385112 - 05/01/11 09:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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okay, would you care to elaborate on that? what you essentially just said to me is meaningless...
-------------------- "a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing" primus------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: Freedom of the will & Moral responsibility [Re: g00ru]
#14386756 - 05/02/11 03:05 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Saying that desire stems from attention is nonsense. Desire primarily stems from internal needs, such as nutrition, shelter, replication, safety and pleasure. Our attention is strongly influenced by this and not vice versa. Most who feel controlled by their surroundings just give too much power to the external possibilities compared with their their inner needs instead of finding the right external possibilities after they have identified their inner needs. This leaves a large area for tricksters with false promises, but even that is the responsibility of the one being tricked, if their internal desire is so strong that they will accept a lie which can possibly blind (not fulfill) their desire.
Morphium used against real body-pain is said to be not addictive.
A free choice always might be to sacrifice ones life for that (different) choice, that's why the simplest (not easiest) choice always is the possibility not to act, as this means not to partake in life. In fact, that is what the power-hungry are trying to inflict on the sheeps, robbing them their choices and letting them think there is none, while profiting from them. Good morning World !
Edited by BlueCoyote (05/02/11 03:15 AM)
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