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OfflinexFrockx
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Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words.
    #14380178 - 04/30/11 11:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Sometimes I encounter difficult situations in life, where I meet people who I don't understand. Sometimes I don't understand them because they act differently than I do. Sometimes I don't understand them because they are trying to do things to me that I don't like, or doing things to other people that I don't like. When I see people doing things that I don't like, or agree with, I sometimes, even often, don't understand them.

What I'm getting at here is that its a lot of work to understand people, so what I do instead is explain them using simple words. If they believe in God, I don't need to sit down and think about why, I just call them stupid. It is a lot less work. If they want to join the miliary, I call them immoral, because I don't want to have to understand why they would make that decision. If people question me, I don't want to think about why they don't know what I do, I just call them ignorant and that's that.

Do you see what I mean? It is very relieving to explain people using simple words instead of understanding them. Its so easy, in fact, that I almost always prefer to do that instead of trying to learn more about the person to try to understand. Why would I burden myself with all that work, when it is so easy to just use a word and move on?


Edited by xFrockx (04/30/11 11:17 PM)


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14380242 - 04/30/11 11:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I pretty much agree, although I put effort in understanding people that I care about.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
    #14380256 - 04/30/11 11:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You would agree to my sarcasm.

I don't care about you, but I still try to understand you.


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14380300 - 04/30/11 11:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I don't care about you, but I still try to understand you.


If you try to understand me, then you care about me to a certain extent.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14380308 - 04/30/11 11:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Im not sure your descriptions are very useful.

What about scientists who have happy families, live liberal, productive, intellectual lives, but also 'believe in god'? Are they more stupid than your run-of-the-mill atheist?


And as for people joining the army, although you might think killing is wrong, you might also be under the impression that you must kill in order to avoid being killed. I mean, this makes sense given it has been basically true throughout all of human history. So if a person wants to protect a peaceful society whereby moral codes can be upheld, they might think they have to fight for it.
You might think there is no real enemy, but if you did think there was an enemy, would you really call it immoral to defend yourself?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14380373 - 04/30/11 11:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I don't find these short explanations useful either, if by useful you mean understanding people. They are extremely useful, however, for forgetting about people.


Edited by xFrockx (04/30/11 11:53 PM)


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
    #14380376 - 04/30/11 11:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Oh do I? How do you know?


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14380476 - 05/01/11 12:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mikehauncho said:
People are actually very simple animals once you look at them in that light...


Most of them, anyways. :stoned:


Quote:

xFrockx said:
Oh do I? How do you know?


Because if you're trying to understand me, this means you're putting effort into it--if you put effort into understanding me, this means I concern you to some extent (concern as in interest). One cannot be interested in something that one does not care about in the least.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
    #14380511 - 05/01/11 12:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Because if you're trying to understand me, this means you're putting effort into it--if you put effort into understanding me, this means I concern you to some extent (concern as in interest). One cannot be interested in something that one does not care about in the least. "


How do you know that?


Edited by xFrockx (05/01/11 12:18 AM)


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14380548 - 05/01/11 12:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

care: a person or thing that is an object of attention...

If you're interested in me, then I am an object of your attention--if I am an object of your attention, then by definition, you care about me.


Honestly, I'm sort of surprised, and also a bit disappointed that I had to spell it all out for you. :lol::tongue:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
    #14380579 - 05/01/11 12:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So because you accept a definition of caring that makes what I said wrong I must also accept it? Why should I use yours?

Here's my definiton: "a cause or object of worry, anxiety, concern, etc."

It makes what you said wrong. I can try to understand without being worried, anxious or concerned. Now accept my definition. :yesnod:


Edited by xFrockx (05/01/11 12:35 AM)


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
    #14380630 - 05/01/11 12:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
So because you accept a definition of caring that makes what I said wrong I must also accept it? Why should I use yours?


I was going to ask you which definition of "care" you're using, but I didn't think the discussion would get to this point.


Quote:

xFrockx said:
Here's my definiton: "a cause or object of worry, anxiety, concern, etc."


Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
Oh do I? How do you know?


Because if you're trying to understand me, this means you're putting effort into it--if you put effort into understanding me, this means I concern you to some extent (concern as in interest).




Quote:

xFrockx said:
It makes what you said wrong.


No it doesn't, because that's pretty much exactly what I said.


Quote:

xFrockx said:
I can try to understand without being worried, anxious or concerned.


No you can't--again, if you're putting effort into understanding me, this means that I concern you to some extent (concern as in interest).


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
    #14380672 - 05/01/11 12:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"I was going to ask you which definition of "care" you're using, but I didn't think the discussion would get to this point."

I'm only going there because I'm willing to see how this "debate" plays out if we both use the same strategy that you think works(apparently, I still don't know if you are serious in this method of debate, which does not concern me or make me care about you but does leave me something to understand about you) .

"No it doesn't, because that's pretty much exactly what I said."

Can you be more specific? From what I can see it is different. If you can explain I can disagree further.

"No you can't--again, if you're putting effort into understanding me, this means that I concern you to some extent (concern as in interest). "

Not according to the definition I am using. Concern and interest are not the same thing as I am using them here.

Concern - to trouble, worry, or disquiet
Interest - to engage or excite the attention or curiosity of

So here we are, again. I can try to understand you without caring about you, or being concerned about you.


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14380704 - 05/01/11 12:54 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"I was going to ask you which definition of "care" you're using, but I didn't think the discussion would get to this point."

I'm only going there because I'm willing to see how this "debate" plays out if we both use the same strategy that you think works(apparently, I still don't know if you are serious in this method of debate, which does not concern me or make me care about you but does leave me something to understand about you) .


I'm not sure why you're saying that you don't know if I am serious about this strategy that you say I think works...:undecided:


Quote:

xFrockx said:
"No it doesn't, because that's pretty much exactly what I said."

Can you be more specific? From what I can see it is different. If you can explain I can disagree further.


My definition included the descriptors "an object of attention". yours included "a cause for concern"--do you honestly need the similarity between the two to be pointed out to you?


Quote:

xFrockx said:
"No you can't--again, if you're putting effort into understanding me, this means that I concern you to some extent (concern as in interest). "

Not according to the definition I am using. Concern and interest are not the same thing as I am using them here.

Concern - to trouble, worry, or disquiet
Interest - to engage or excite the attention or curiosity of

So here we are, again. I can try to understand you without caring about you, or being concerned about you.


Oh, well if you're using that definition, sure, but that wasn't the definition I was using.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (05/01/11 01:01 AM)


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
    #14380792 - 05/01/11 01:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"I'm not sure why you're saying that you don't know if I am serious about this strategy that you say I think works..."

Because I often see you use definitions in discussions like this. It seems like you are trying to use the logic that results from using your definitions against the logic that results from me using mine. What it comes down to is that what I said was meant the way I meant it. You can ask what that was if you wanted to understand what I meant. It seems to me like you're telling me here that by your understanding of what I said, it is not sensical, and not merely that it is nonsensical to you, but that it "really is" nonsensical. By what you understood of what I meant, what I said must imply that I do care about you, because to you, wanting to understand something implies that you care about it. It doesn't seem to matter to you that to me, understanding does not imply that I care about what it is I am trying to understand.

Is there some reason that I can say what I said, and mean it the way that I did? Even if what I said did not use words in the most conventional way (which I would argue is hard to determine anyway) can't it have meaning? Can't be both understand what I meant, without referring to a dictionary? If I had to put it another way I could say that I want to understand you, but I wouldn't take a bullet for you. Does that make sense to you?

But you might want to say that taking a bullet is a lot of care, and that I must care about you to try to understand you. And that is OK! I understand what you mean, actually. I understand that you think by trying to understand you, that act in itself implies caring. Now I don't know if that is because what "caring" actually is. I don't know what "caring" actually is. But I can see what you mean when you use it.

I guess that kindof describes my frustration with debating you. At best, I just question you and we don't get too far, and at worst, I just tell you that what you say doesn't make sense, and give you definitions as to why. I'm just not sure what that accomplishes. And so that is why I ask if you are serious when you do it. Because I think it is more likely you are trolling than that you are using that style of debate to lead to a higher understanding of things. Because it seems to be totally against understanding. It seems to take things people say and battling them, rather than accepting them for what they are and intended to be, and if that is not known, asking.

But as you said, you don't try to understand people you don't care about, myself included apparently. And if that is your way, I respect that. Can you tell me why you don't try to understand people you don't care about though? For me, I try to understand people, because it is a way to learn and practice the process of understanding, which to me is a fairly useful endeavor.


Edited by xFrockx (05/01/11 01:21 AM)


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14380877 - 05/01/11 01:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"I'm not sure why you're saying that you don't know if I am serious about this strategy that you say I think works..."

Because I often see you use definitions in discussions like this. It seems like you are trying to use the logic that results from using your definitions against the logic that results from me using mine.


I am not trying to do that, I am just providing the definitions that reflect my interpretations of the terms that you used.


Quote:

xFrockx said:
What it comes down to is that what I said was meant the way I meant it.


Yeah, I wasn't quite sure what you meant, which is why I provided my own definitions (in the hopes that providing them will incite you to provide some feedback on whether or not those are the definitions you're using). :sun:


Quote:

xFrockx said:
It doesn't seem to matter to you that to me, understanding does not imply that I care about what it is I am trying to understand.


I think you have misunderstood me. :wink:


Quote:

xFrockx said:
If I had to put it another way I could say that I want to understand you, but I wouldn't take a bullet for you. Does that make sense to you?


Yes. :yesnod:


Quote:

xFrockx said:
But you might want to say that taking a bullet is a lot of care, and that I must care about you to try to understand you. And that is OK! I understand what you mean, actually. I understand that you think by trying to understand you, that act in itself implies caring. Now that isn't because what "caring" actually is. I don't know what "caring" actually is. But I can see what you mean when you use it.


Well I did provide a definition of 'care'. :shrug:


Quote:

xFrockx said:
I guess that kindof describes my frustration with debating you.


You're frustrated? :lol:

Your frustration seems to stem from a misunderstanding that I am trying to argue that your definitions are incorrect.


Quote:

xFrockx said:
It seems to take things people say and battling them, rather than accepting them for what they are and intended to be, and if that is not known, asking.


Well, again, I was going to ask, but I figured that providing dictionary definitions instead would incite you to provide feedback on whether or not those definitions are in agreement with the terms as you're using them.


Quote:

xFrockx said:
Can you tell me why you don't try to understand people you don't care about though?


Because people are somewhat complicated, and there are a shit-ton of people--if I were to try to understand people I don't care about in addition to people I care about, I would become overwhelmed.


Quote:

xFrockx said:
For me, I try to understand people, because it is a way to learn and practice the process of understanding, which to me is a fairly useful endeavor.


IMO, any person whom I invest the time and energy to understand is someone that I care about to at least some extent.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14380934 - 05/01/11 01:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Your frustration seems to stem from a misunderstanding that I am trying to argue that your definitions are incorrect."

Well that is one way of putting it. I think if I had to communicate my frustration, I would say it comes from times like this:

"xFrockx said:
    I don't care about you, but I still try to understand you.

Poid said:
If you try to understand me, then you care about me to a certain extent."

Times like that, I say one thing, and then you say that what I said means something else. I do the same thing myself, so now I have some idea of how other people might feel when I do this sort of thing. Many people call responses like these "smart ass remarks." I can see why, because it seems like they are made to assert something to another person rather than to confirm that one understands what the person said.

"Well, again, I was going to ask, but I figured that providing dictionary definitions instead would incite you to provide feedback on whether or not those definitions are in agreement with the terms as you're using them."

Why are you trying to incite me? You could have just asked what I meant.

"IMO, any person whom I invest the time and energy to understand is someone that I care about to at least some extent. "


By that definition, I care about everyone. I have been overwhelmed by this for some time, but that is fine to me, because I don't expect to ever really have a handle on things, or even think that I do, ever again.


Edited by xFrockx (05/01/11 01:54 AM)


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14380978 - 05/01/11 02:02 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Your frustration seems to stem from a misunderstanding that I am trying to argue that your definitions are incorrect."

Well that is one way of putting it. I think if I had to communicate my frustration, I would say it comes from times like this:

"xFrockx said:
    I don't care about you, but I still try to understand you.

Poid said:
If you try to understand me, then you care about me to a certain extent."

Times like that, I say one thing, and then you say that what I said means something else.


I was under the impression that you were using an incorrect definition of the term 'care' when I said that.


Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Well, again, I was going to ask, but I figured that providing dictionary definitions instead would incite you to provide feedback on whether or not those definitions are in agreement with the terms as you're using them."

Why are you trying to incite me? You could have just asked what I meant.


It's just a different way to go about finding out what you meant (asking you would also be inciting you, BTW)--again, I was originally under the impression that you were using a false definition for the term. I thought that providing a dictionary definition would clear things up.


Quote:

xFrockx said:
"IMO, any person whom I invest the time and energy to understand is someone that I care about to at least some extent. "


By that definition, I care about everyone.


Or everyone you've been exposed to, at least.


Quote:

xFrockx said:
I have been overwhelmed by this for some time, but that is fine to me, because I don't expect to ever really have a handle on things, or even think that I do, ever again.


Ever again? :ooo:

It is your choice to continue to think about things that overwhelm you--being constantly overwhelmed/stressed is not healthy, I would suggest that you adopt alternative thought patterns. :grin:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
    #14381011 - 05/01/11 02:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"I was under the impression that you were using an incorrect definition of the term 'care' when I said that."

Is there really even such a thing? Who decides what definitions are correct besides everyone?

"It's just a different way to go about finding out what you meant (asking you would also be inciting you, BTW)--again, I was originally under the impression that you were using a false definition for the term. I thought that providing a dictionary definition would clear things up."

It is a different way of doing it. I think asking would be a different kind of inciting, possibly a more direct and honest way. I say that because with a question there's no question what you are getting at, you ask. With inciting using other statements, it leaves me in doubt as to what you are unclear about, and from my end it seems like you are clear about what I am saying, but disagree with it or at least think I said it wrong.

"Or everyone you've been exposed to, at least."

Well I have tried to understand people as a whole, not that I think its possible or a worthwhile endeavor, but I've tried, so I guess I could say I care about everyone using these meanings. Although one might have different meanings that would make that statement nonsensical or meaningless.

"Ever again? :ooo:

It is your choice to continue to think about things that overwhelm you--being constantly overwhelmed/stressed is not healthy, I would suggest that you adopt alternative thought patterns. :grin:"

For me being overwhelmed is not the same as being stressed as I'm using it here. Being overwhelmed as I mean it here is being without any sense of completeness, finality, or control. For many people, that might make them stressed, but for me its just my most honest idea of my place in the universe. As a person totally overwhelmed by things to understand, and constantly in a process of understanding. It is what I do. Why should I do any different?


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14381049 - 05/01/11 02:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"I was under the impression that you were using an incorrect definition of the term 'care' when I said that."

Is there really even such a thing? Who decides what definitions are correct besides everyone?


By 'incorrect definition', I mean a definition for a term that doesn't line up with its dictionary definition.


Quote:

xFrockx said:
"It's just a different way to go about finding out what you meant (asking you would also be inciting you, BTW)--again, I was originally under the impression that you were using a false definition for the term. I thought that providing a dictionary definition would clear things up."

It is a different way of doing it. I think asking would be a different kind of inciting, possibly a more direct and honest way.


Well, again, I was under the impression that you were using an incorrect definition, so I didn't really see the need to ask you what you meant--I was correcting you. :evil:


Quote:

xFrockx said:
I say that because with a question there's no question what you are getting at, you ask. With inciting using other statements, it leaves me in doubt as to what you are unclear about, and from my end it seems like you are clear about what I am saying, but disagree with it or at least think I said it wrong.


I thought I was clear about you using an incorrect definition, but I was wrong about that. :grin:


Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Or everyone you've been exposed to, at least."

Well I have tried to understand people as a whole, not that I think its possible or a worthwhile endeavor, but I've tried, so I guess I could say I care about everyone using these meanings.


In a sense, so do I. :thumbup:


Quote:

xFrockx said:
Why should I do any different?


Well I was under the impression that being overwhelmed by caring about everyone was distressing for you.


I do want to know what you meant by "ever again", though--was there a time when you had a "handle on things"?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
    #14381219 - 05/01/11 03:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"By 'incorrect definition', I mean a definition for a term that doesn't line up with its dictionary definition."

So are the definitions in the dictionary correct or are you just sourcing them for their authority/availability?

"I do want to know what you meant by "ever again", though--was there a time when you had a "handle on things"? "

There was a time when I thought I did, or could. I never actually did, and I no longer think that I can, or at the very least, I do not know how I would. The whole idea of having a handle on things seems totally preposterous to me now. Where's the handle?


Edited by xFrockx (05/01/11 03:45 AM)


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14386547 - 05/02/11 01:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Sometimes I encounter difficult situations in life, where I meet people who I don't understand. Sometimes I don't understand them because they act differently than I do. Sometimes I don't understand them because they are trying to do things to me that I don't like, or doing things to other people that I don't like. When I see people doing things that I don't like, or agree with, I sometimes, even often, don't understand them.

What I'm getting at here is that its a lot of work to understand people, so what I do instead is explain them using simple words. If they believe in God, I don't need to sit down and think about why, I just call them stupid. It is a lot less work. If they want to join the miliary, I call them immoral, because I don't want to have to understand why they would make that decision. If people question me, I don't want to think about why they don't know what I do, I just call them ignorant and that's that.

Do you see what I mean? It is very relieving to explain people using simple words instead of understanding them. Its so easy, in fact, that I almost always prefer to do that instead of trying to learn more about the person to try to understand. Why would I burden myself with all that work, when it is so easy to just use a word and move on?




What you say you do seems like a process of Attribute Substitution. Why you burden yourself with all the work or not depends on you and the context I would suppose. Sometimes a cognitive bias can be seen as a heuristic. If that "rule of thumb" is working for you, then good on ya. But sometimes people can rely too heavily upon a particular "heuristic", to the point at which it seems not to have much benefit for them, and thus they could be said to be...


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14386763 - 05/02/11 03:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i hate joining a thread with already 2 pages.
i choose to ignore the conversation and focus on what i just spent time reading.

moral of the story is..
try to ignore more..that way you don't understand at all and you can't pass any kind of judgement.

When close to people, just feel.
Disregard all those ideas.

if i have a buddy that will have my back no matter what , i couldn't care less whether he believes in god or goes to the army.

alas, this labeling is something we must use. Perhaps humanity is slowly outgrowing the need to , but it still exist. Stereotypes can sometimes prove to be useful.

I imagine that both of us are reasonably young without children of our own.
You imagine that you have children and your 13 year old gets picked up by a 15 yr old lil niglet wearin a :leaf:  LEGALIZE :leaf: t shirt.

Will you explain him with simple words ?

:smirk:

Maybe ..
Maybe not.

We all do it. Sometimes it can be useful and spot on, other times it can be just downright stupid.
The same kind of labeling happens with objects , events , places etc.
Its just how the brain works.

Unfortunately we sometimes take it to an extreme.
Humans are bipolar. :lol:


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: jivJaN]
    #14388951 - 05/02/11 02:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The op was intended as a joke. Its sarcastic humor.


Edited by xFrockx (05/02/11 02:36 PM)


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14390366 - 05/02/11 06:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i know.


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14410973 - 05/06/11 03:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"By 'incorrect definition', I mean a definition for a term that doesn't line up with its dictionary definition."

So are the definitions in the dictionary correct or are you just sourcing them for their authority/availability?


Of course they're correct; I'm sourcing them because they are correct.


Quote:

xFrockx said:
Where's the handle?


In your soul. :thirdeyeani:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
    #14411110 - 05/06/11 04:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Of course they're correct; I'm sourcing them because they are correct."

What definition are you using for correct?


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14411114 - 05/06/11 04:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The correct dictionary definition. :grin:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
    #14411120 - 05/06/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Which one?

Do you see why I wondered if this method of debate was serious?


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14411164 - 05/06/11 04:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Do you see why I wondered if this method of debate was serious?


I thought we came to an understanding that your assumption that I am using this method of debate stemmed from a misunderstanding that occurred between us earlier. :undecided:

I know I use the Socratic method sometimes--it is oftentimes an effective method of debate, but I don't recall ever asking continuously pesky pointless questions. The questions I ask always have a point, I don't just argue for the sake of arguing.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
    #14413968 - 05/07/11 06:18 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"I thought we came to an understanding that your assumption that I am using this method of debate stemmed from a misunderstanding that occurred between us earlier."

I wasn't under the same impression, from my end you threw off the conversation when I asked why you were using dictionary definitions when you said "The correct ones" Was that just a joke meant to show me that you weren't using dictionary definitions seriously? So you aren't using the method of debate I think that you are using, namely, one that uses dictionary definitions? Sure seemed like it. Why do you do that?

"I know I use the Socratic method sometimes--it is oftentimes an effective method of debate, but I don't recall ever asking continuously pesky pointless questions. The questions I ask always have a point, I don't just argue for the sake of arguing. "

I'm not trying to ask pointless questions, are you saying I am? Which ones are pointless? I mean, they might not have a point to you, but at least on my end I had a legit reason relating to this conversation for each one of them. None of them were to "get" you or to throw off the conversation.


Edited by xFrockx (05/07/11 06:21 AM)


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14414035 - 05/07/11 06:58 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"I thought we came to an understanding that your assumption that I am using this method of debate stemmed from a misunderstanding that occurred between us earlier."

I wasn't under the same impression, from my end you threw off the conversation when I asked why you were using dictionary definitions when you said "The correct ones" Was that just a joke meant to show me that you weren't using dictionary definitions seriously?


Not at all, I don't see why you think that. :undecided:

I also don't see why you think my response "The correct dictionary definition." to your question "What definition are you using for correct?" was an attempt to throw off the conversation..I would think that, considering the context in which this term is being discussed, it would be obvious that I am using its adjective form, which can easily and quickly be discovered after a quick Google search.

:google:


Quote:

xFrockx said:
So you aren't using the method of debate I think that you are using, namely, one that uses dictionary definitions? Sure seemed like it. Why do you do that?


Why do I use a method of debate that uses dictionary definitions? Because sometimes it's necessary in order to clear up confusion, for all involved in the debate (including spectators).


Quote:

xFrockx said:
"I know I use the Socratic method sometimes--it is oftentimes an effective method of debate, but I don't recall ever asking continuously pesky pointless questions. The questions I ask always have a point, I don't just argue for the sake of arguing. "

I'm not trying to ask pointless questions, are you saying I am? Which ones are pointless? I mean, they might not have a point to you, but at least on my end I had a legit reason relating to this conversation for each one of them. None of them were to "get" you or to throw off the conversation.


Oh, I thought you were critiquing my style of debating when you made the remark "Do you see why I wondered if this method of debate was serious?"--to answer your question "Which one?", I would have to say this one:

conforming to or agreeing with fact, logic, or known truth


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
    #14417526 - 05/08/11 12:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Why do I use a method of debate that uses dictionary definitions? Because sometimes it's necessary in order to clear up confusion, for all involved in the debate "

Does it actually clear anything up? I would say it only obscures things further. More definitions only lead to more things to discuss.

A fine example is your defining "correct"


"conforming to or agreeing with fact, logic, or known truth"

Without more definitions, we don't even have an idea of what this means, and then we need more definitions for those definitions to understand them, and even if we understand them the same way (is it possible?) there's the problem of ending up defining words using the word in the definition. These things seem simple at face and it is easy to have conversations, but the agreement is basically what makes the conversation possible, not any actual meaning the word has, because words don't hold meaning, they have no hands.

So how do you know your definition of correct is correct? Is it correspondent with known truth? Known to whom?


Edited by xFrockx (05/08/11 12:35 AM)


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14417569 - 05/08/11 12:39 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Why do I use a method of debate that uses dictionary definitions? Because sometimes it's necessary in order to clear up confusion, for all involved in the debate "

Does it actually clear anything up?


Yes it does..efficient communication occurs when all involved parties understand each other accurately.


Quote:

xFrockx said:
I would say it only obscures things further. More definitions only lead to more things to discuss.


I think the mentioning of definitions in a debate usually serves to settle semantic disputes..just because there are more things to discuss doesn't necessarily mean that those things will serve to obscure rather than clarify things.


Quote:

xFrockx said:
A fine example is your defining "correct"


How so?


Quote:

xFrockx said:
"conforming to or agreeing with fact, logic, or known truth"

Without more definitions, we don't even have an idea of what this means, and then we need more definitions for those definitions to understand them, and even if they are all the same there's the problem of ending up defining words using the word in the definition. These things seem simple at face and it is easy to have conversations, but the agreement is basically what makes the conversation possible, not any actual meaning the word has, because words don't hold meaning, they have no hands.


Haha, "they have no hands". :tongue:

I don't see how anything you said here suggests that more definitions/things to discuss necessarily serve to obscure rather than clarify things, all you did is describe some basic aspects of language/communication. :shrug:


Quote:

xFrockx said:
So how do you know your definition of correct is correct? Is it correspondent with known truth? Known to whom?


Known to the people who agree on its validity as a word in their language (i.e. English speakers).


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx] * 1
    #14417616 - 05/08/11 12:51 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Reductio ad absurdum fail.

Did you comprehend what this post means or do you need every word defined ad infinitum?


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid] * 2
    #14417702 - 05/08/11 01:14 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I don't see how anything you said here suggests that more definitions/things to discuss necessarily serve to obscure rather than clarify things, all you did is describe some basic aspects of language/communication. :shrug:





Linguists debate whether there exists semantic primitives, words that need no further explanation. There are some that think they exist while others argue that there are no words which can be inherently understood and that even "semantic primitives" need to be defined as some stage. This leads to an inevitable tautology insofar as there is a limit to the number of words that exist to define anything and therefore there comes a stage where the same words that we wanted to define are later used to define something else. But either way, the "problem" is very theoretical and rarely comes up in normal usage. We seem to get by with words having fuzzy meanings; by which I mean that each person's meaning of a word most of the time doesn't have a 1 to 1 correspondence of meaning to another person's, but has a "good enough" fit to make communication possible. 

In a nutshell, introducing one or more definitions into an argument does not mean that every word has to then be defined. It would be irrational 'all or nothing' thinking to require otherwise. As to whether or not a provided definition clarifies or not, well that can be seen and usually worked out within the flow of the argument.


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Mufungo]
    #14417721 - 05/08/11 01:19 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

+1:thumbup:

I enjoyed reading that. :smile:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Mufungo]
    #14417726 - 05/08/11 01:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Did you comprehend what this post means or do you need every word defined ad infinitum? "

I don't need any definitions, but I don't know if I comprehend what your post means. What do you mean by "comprehending what a post means?" I could honestly think of several ways to interpret that, and several questions of any of those ways. This isn't so much a point of argument as it is me being honest about the situation here.

"Linguists debate whether there exists semantic primitives, words that need no further explanation. There are some that think they exist while others argue that there are no words which can be inherently understood and that even "semantic primitives" need to be defined as some stage. This leads to an inevitable tautology insofar as there is a limit to the number of words that exist to define anything and therefore there comes a stage where the same words that we wanted to define are later used to define something else. But either way, the "problem" is very theoretical and rarely comes up in normal usage. We seem to get by with words having fuzzy meanings; by which I mean that each person's meaning of a word most of the time doesn't have a 1 to 1 correspondence of meaning to another person's, but has a "good enough" fit to make communication possible. "

This is awfully bootstrappy.

"In a nutshell, introducing one or more definitions into an argument does not mean that every word has to then be defined. It would be irrational 'all or nothing' thinking to require otherwise. As to whether or not a provided definition clarifies or not, well that can be seen and usually worked out within the flow of the argument. "

No one is asking for every word in a conversation to be defined in order for understanding to be possible. However, I would question anyone who thinks that they know what words mean. I don't know. This is my position, so I question. Sometimes when I do this, it can appear like I'm arguing for the "wrong side" when in reality, I'm not arguing for anything, although sometimes I argue against things with questions, but not seeking to change anyone's mind to what I believe, because I don't.


Edited by xFrockx (05/08/11 01:36 AM)


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14417801 - 05/08/11 01:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Do you see the irony in asking what people mean when they use a word or phrase when your previous argument indicated that me providing a meaning would only obscure things further for you?

You say that you don't know what words mean. By saying that, are you also indicating that you can't/don't/won't make meaning of words?


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Mufungo]
    #14417958 - 05/08/11 02:39 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Do you see the irony in asking what people mean when they use a word or phrase when your previous argument indicated that me providing a meaning would only obscure things further for you?"

I said asking for definitions, not meanings, obscures things further. At least asking for meaning is direct and doesn't rely on outside sources.

"By saying that, are you also indicating that you can't/don't/won't make meaning of words? "

No. Only that I don't ultimately know what they mean.


Edited by xFrockx (05/08/11 02:41 AM)


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14418320 - 05/08/11 05:52 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Do you see the irony in asking what people mean when they use a word or phrase when your previous argument indicated that me providing a meaning would only obscure things further for you?"

I said asking for definitions, not meanings, obscures things further. At least asking for meaning is direct and doesn't rely on outside sources.





Ok... So definitions are not meanings? And any meaning people give you does not rely on outside sources?

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"By saying that, are you also indicating that you can't/don't/won't make meaning of words? "

No. Only that I don't ultimately know what they mean.




So you do make meaning of words, but you don't know what they mean?


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Mufungo] * 1
    #14418455 - 05/08/11 07:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Ok... So definitions are not meanings? And any meaning people give you does not rely on outside sources?"

Are definitions meanings? I don't know. We have two words here, "definition" and "meaning" each with its own multiplicity of uses. One might say that a definition as seen in Webster's has a meaning. We might say that a definition is what we see (e.g. "noun- a person, place or thing"), and its meaning is how we understand it. Is this what definitions and meanings actually are? Is that even a sensible question? If it isn't, is it sensible to assume we really do know what they mean? I don't know. Is it sensible to assume we do not know what they mean? I don't know that either. If these are just tools that fit into whatever role we use them for, it would seem anything but sensible to assume either way.

"And any meaning people give you does not rely on outside sources?"

When I tell you what I mean, is what I say made from an outside source, or is it made by me? I don't know. I have difficulty in deciding on the origin of ideas. A simple answer to your question though is that by "outside sources" what I meant was books, dictionaries, and other "authorities" one might literally cite.

"So you do make meaning of words, but you don't know what they mean? "

Yeah that seems fair. I can understand what someone tells me as many ways as I can think of, but actually knowing what the words mean is another matter. At breakfast you could point to your eggs and tell me "these are eggs." Do I know what an "egg" is now, or do I just have an example of a way to use that word, that I can remember for future use? The thing that a chicken egg is, namely the oval white things we buy in cartons, are not eggs, they are called eggs. Do we know what an egg is? Well, do we know what "to know" is? There's no cartons full of knowledge to point at, we don't even have a way of making a concrete example. All we can do is point to examples of statements, like "Don't shit where you eat." Is that knowledge? I don't know. But some people would call it knowledge. The statement itself though is no more knowledge than the oval white thing is an egg. The statement, as well as the oval white thing, are what they are, as they exist to be perceived by you and I.


Edited by xFrockx (05/08/11 07:22 AM)


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14418645 - 05/08/11 09:06 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

At first i liked the idea. Then i thought a little about it *chuckle* and, of course, things became complicated.
By doing what you describe it is possible to actually putting the very label that applies to you, in that situation, to them. You'd be stupid, not the believer in god, you'd be immoral, not the soldier fighting, and so on...

Perhaps the best route to real understanding is openness to difference, and the acceptance that everything is change (be it slow or fast). Kind of holding a middle ground, but that requires effort. Sometimes too much if i say so myself.


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Ahimsa]
    #14418699 - 05/08/11 09:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Perhaps the best route to real understanding is openness to difference, and the acceptance that everything is change (be it slow or fast). Kind of holding a middle ground, but that requires effort. Sometimes too much if i say so myself. "

For me the best route to understanding is never thinking that you understand. And that is an easy thing to do if you're honest with yourself and aren't dependent on a self concept that requires you to understand things.


Edited by xFrockx (05/08/11 09:29 AM)


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14418716 - 05/08/11 09:36 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, and the simple labels are very useful at times but going deeper into the matter may bring to light a far further reaching insight in the way things are and why people do the way they do.

I agree that there is no such thing as totally understanding. But every fact, every insight, every idea, every newly made link abd association does provide means for a fuller engaging with this thing called life, that is others included.

Simple words are brilliant! I'll bear that to mind.


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Ahimsa]
    #14419012 - 05/08/11 11:00 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Oh no, the OP was intended as a joke. Basically its sarcasm about not judging people, and trying to understand them instead.


Edited by xFrockx (05/08/11 11:00 AM)


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Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14419419 - 05/08/11 12:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ah. I don't do sarcasm but can appreciate. :smirk:


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