|
xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
#14381219 - 05/01/11 03:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
"By 'incorrect definition', I mean a definition for a term that doesn't line up with its dictionary definition."
So are the definitions in the dictionary correct or are you just sourcing them for their authority/availability?
"I do want to know what you meant by "ever again", though--was there a time when you had a "handle on things"? "
There was a time when I thought I did, or could. I never actually did, and I no longer think that I can, or at the very least, I do not know how I would. The whole idea of having a handle on things seems totally preposterous to me now. Where's the handle?
Edited by xFrockx (05/01/11 03:45 AM)
|
Mufungo
Coming at ya


Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 2,743
Loc: Knowhere
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
#14386547 - 05/02/11 01:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said: Sometimes I encounter difficult situations in life, where I meet people who I don't understand. Sometimes I don't understand them because they act differently than I do. Sometimes I don't understand them because they are trying to do things to me that I don't like, or doing things to other people that I don't like. When I see people doing things that I don't like, or agree with, I sometimes, even often, don't understand them.
What I'm getting at here is that its a lot of work to understand people, so what I do instead is explain them using simple words. If they believe in God, I don't need to sit down and think about why, I just call them stupid. It is a lot less work. If they want to join the miliary, I call them immoral, because I don't want to have to understand why they would make that decision. If people question me, I don't want to think about why they don't know what I do, I just call them ignorant and that's that.
Do you see what I mean? It is very relieving to explain people using simple words instead of understanding them. Its so easy, in fact, that I almost always prefer to do that instead of trying to learn more about the person to try to understand. Why would I burden myself with all that work, when it is so easy to just use a word and move on?
What you say you do seems like a process of Attribute Substitution. Why you burden yourself with all the work or not depends on you and the context I would suppose. Sometimes a cognitive bias can be seen as a heuristic. If that "rule of thumb" is working for you, then good on ya. But sometimes people can rely too heavily upon a particular "heuristic", to the point at which it seems not to have much benefit for them, and thus they could be said to be...
--------------------
|
jivJaN
yes


Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
#14386763 - 05/02/11 03:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
i hate joining a thread with already 2 pages. i choose to ignore the conversation and focus on what i just spent time reading.
moral of the story is.. try to ignore more..that way you don't understand at all and you can't pass any kind of judgement.
When close to people, just feel. Disregard all those ideas.
if i have a buddy that will have my back no matter what , i couldn't care less whether he believes in god or goes to the army.
alas, this labeling is something we must use. Perhaps humanity is slowly outgrowing the need to , but it still exist. Stereotypes can sometimes prove to be useful.
I imagine that both of us are reasonably young without children of our own. You imagine that you have children and your 13 year old gets picked up by a 15 yr old lil niglet wearin a LEGALIZE t shirt.
Will you explain him with simple words ?

Maybe .. Maybe not.
We all do it. Sometimes it can be useful and spot on, other times it can be just downright stupid. The same kind of labeling happens with objects , events , places etc. Its just how the brain works.
Unfortunately we sometimes take it to an extreme. Humans are bipolar.
--------------------
--------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
|
xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: jivJaN]
#14388951 - 05/02/11 02:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
The op was intended as a joke. Its sarcastic humor.
Edited by xFrockx (05/02/11 02:36 PM)
|
jivJaN
yes


Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
#14390366 - 05/02/11 06:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
i know.
--------------------
--------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
#14410973 - 05/06/11 03:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said: "By 'incorrect definition', I mean a definition for a term that doesn't line up with its dictionary definition."
So are the definitions in the dictionary correct or are you just sourcing them for their authority/availability?
Of course they're correct; I'm sourcing them because they are correct.
Quote:
xFrockx said: Where's the handle?
In your soul.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
#14411110 - 05/06/11 04:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
"Of course they're correct; I'm sourcing them because they are correct."
What definition are you using for correct?
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
#14411114 - 05/06/11 04:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
The correct dictionary definition.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
#14411120 - 05/06/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Which one?
Do you see why I wondered if this method of debate was serious?
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
#14411164 - 05/06/11 04:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said: Do you see why I wondered if this method of debate was serious?
I thought we came to an understanding that your assumption that I am using this method of debate stemmed from a misunderstanding that occurred between us earlier. 
I know I use the Socratic method sometimes--it is oftentimes an effective method of debate, but I don't recall ever asking continuously pesky pointless questions. The questions I ask always have a point, I don't just argue for the sake of arguing.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
#14413968 - 05/07/11 06:18 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
"I thought we came to an understanding that your assumption that I am using this method of debate stemmed from a misunderstanding that occurred between us earlier."
I wasn't under the same impression, from my end you threw off the conversation when I asked why you were using dictionary definitions when you said "The correct ones" Was that just a joke meant to show me that you weren't using dictionary definitions seriously? So you aren't using the method of debate I think that you are using, namely, one that uses dictionary definitions? Sure seemed like it. Why do you do that?
"I know I use the Socratic method sometimes--it is oftentimes an effective method of debate, but I don't recall ever asking continuously pesky pointless questions. The questions I ask always have a point, I don't just argue for the sake of arguing. "
I'm not trying to ask pointless questions, are you saying I am? Which ones are pointless? I mean, they might not have a point to you, but at least on my end I had a legit reason relating to this conversation for each one of them. None of them were to "get" you or to throw off the conversation.
Edited by xFrockx (05/07/11 06:21 AM)
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
#14414035 - 05/07/11 06:58 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said: "I thought we came to an understanding that your assumption that I am using this method of debate stemmed from a misunderstanding that occurred between us earlier."
I wasn't under the same impression, from my end you threw off the conversation when I asked why you were using dictionary definitions when you said "The correct ones" Was that just a joke meant to show me that you weren't using dictionary definitions seriously?
Not at all, I don't see why you think that. 
I also don't see why you think my response "The correct dictionary definition." to your question "What definition are you using for correct?" was an attempt to throw off the conversation..I would think that, considering the context in which this term is being discussed, it would be obvious that I am using its adjective form, which can easily and quickly be discovered after a quick Google search.

Quote:
xFrockx said: So you aren't using the method of debate I think that you are using, namely, one that uses dictionary definitions? Sure seemed like it. Why do you do that?
Why do I use a method of debate that uses dictionary definitions? Because sometimes it's necessary in order to clear up confusion, for all involved in the debate (including spectators).
Quote:
xFrockx said: "I know I use the Socratic method sometimes--it is oftentimes an effective method of debate, but I don't recall ever asking continuously pesky pointless questions. The questions I ask always have a point, I don't just argue for the sake of arguing. "
I'm not trying to ask pointless questions, are you saying I am? Which ones are pointless? I mean, they might not have a point to you, but at least on my end I had a legit reason relating to this conversation for each one of them. None of them were to "get" you or to throw off the conversation.
Oh, I thought you were critiquing my style of debating when you made the remark "Do you see why I wondered if this method of debate was serious?"--to answer your question "Which one?", I would have to say this one:
conforming to or agreeing with fact, logic, or known truth
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid]
#14417526 - 05/08/11 12:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
"Why do I use a method of debate that uses dictionary definitions? Because sometimes it's necessary in order to clear up confusion, for all involved in the debate "
Does it actually clear anything up? I would say it only obscures things further. More definitions only lead to more things to discuss.
A fine example is your defining "correct"
"conforming to or agreeing with fact, logic, or known truth"
Without more definitions, we don't even have an idea of what this means, and then we need more definitions for those definitions to understand them, and even if we understand them the same way (is it possible?) there's the problem of ending up defining words using the word in the definition. These things seem simple at face and it is easy to have conversations, but the agreement is basically what makes the conversation possible, not any actual meaning the word has, because words don't hold meaning, they have no hands.
So how do you know your definition of correct is correct? Is it correspondent with known truth? Known to whom?
Edited by xFrockx (05/08/11 12:35 AM)
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
#14417569 - 05/08/11 12:39 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said: "Why do I use a method of debate that uses dictionary definitions? Because sometimes it's necessary in order to clear up confusion, for all involved in the debate "
Does it actually clear anything up?
Yes it does..efficient communication occurs when all involved parties understand each other accurately.
Quote:
xFrockx said: I would say it only obscures things further. More definitions only lead to more things to discuss.
I think the mentioning of definitions in a debate usually serves to settle semantic disputes..just because there are more things to discuss doesn't necessarily mean that those things will serve to obscure rather than clarify things.
Quote:
xFrockx said: A fine example is your defining "correct"
How so?
Quote:
xFrockx said: "conforming to or agreeing with fact, logic, or known truth"
Without more definitions, we don't even have an idea of what this means, and then we need more definitions for those definitions to understand them, and even if they are all the same there's the problem of ending up defining words using the word in the definition. These things seem simple at face and it is easy to have conversations, but the agreement is basically what makes the conversation possible, not any actual meaning the word has, because words don't hold meaning, they have no hands.
Haha, "they have no hands". 
I don't see how anything you said here suggests that more definitions/things to discuss necessarily serve to obscure rather than clarify things, all you did is describe some basic aspects of language/communication. 
Quote:
xFrockx said: So how do you know your definition of correct is correct? Is it correspondent with known truth? Known to whom?
Known to the people who agree on its validity as a word in their language (i.e. English speakers).
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
Mufungo
Coming at ya


Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 2,743
Loc: Knowhere
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx] 1
#14417616 - 05/08/11 12:51 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Reductio ad absurdum fail.
Did you comprehend what this post means or do you need every word defined ad infinitum?
--------------------
|
Mufungo
Coming at ya


Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 2,743
Loc: Knowhere
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Poid] 2
#14417702 - 05/08/11 01:14 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Poid said: I don't see how anything you said here suggests that more definitions/things to discuss necessarily serve to obscure rather than clarify things, all you did is describe some basic aspects of language/communication. 
Linguists debate whether there exists semantic primitives, words that need no further explanation. There are some that think they exist while others argue that there are no words which can be inherently understood and that even "semantic primitives" need to be defined as some stage. This leads to an inevitable tautology insofar as there is a limit to the number of words that exist to define anything and therefore there comes a stage where the same words that we wanted to define are later used to define something else. But either way, the "problem" is very theoretical and rarely comes up in normal usage. We seem to get by with words having fuzzy meanings; by which I mean that each person's meaning of a word most of the time doesn't have a 1 to 1 correspondence of meaning to another person's, but has a "good enough" fit to make communication possible.
In a nutshell, introducing one or more definitions into an argument does not mean that every word has to then be defined. It would be irrational 'all or nothing' thinking to require otherwise. As to whether or not a provided definition clarifies or not, well that can be seen and usually worked out within the flow of the argument.
--------------------
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Mufungo]
#14417721 - 05/08/11 01:19 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
+1
I enjoyed reading that.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Mufungo]
#14417726 - 05/08/11 01:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
"Did you comprehend what this post means or do you need every word defined ad infinitum? "
I don't need any definitions, but I don't know if I comprehend what your post means. What do you mean by "comprehending what a post means?" I could honestly think of several ways to interpret that, and several questions of any of those ways. This isn't so much a point of argument as it is me being honest about the situation here.
"Linguists debate whether there exists semantic primitives, words that need no further explanation. There are some that think they exist while others argue that there are no words which can be inherently understood and that even "semantic primitives" need to be defined as some stage. This leads to an inevitable tautology insofar as there is a limit to the number of words that exist to define anything and therefore there comes a stage where the same words that we wanted to define are later used to define something else. But either way, the "problem" is very theoretical and rarely comes up in normal usage. We seem to get by with words having fuzzy meanings; by which I mean that each person's meaning of a word most of the time doesn't have a 1 to 1 correspondence of meaning to another person's, but has a "good enough" fit to make communication possible. "
This is awfully bootstrappy.
"In a nutshell, introducing one or more definitions into an argument does not mean that every word has to then be defined. It would be irrational 'all or nothing' thinking to require otherwise. As to whether or not a provided definition clarifies or not, well that can be seen and usually worked out within the flow of the argument. "
No one is asking for every word in a conversation to be defined in order for understanding to be possible. However, I would question anyone who thinks that they know what words mean. I don't know. This is my position, so I question. Sometimes when I do this, it can appear like I'm arguing for the "wrong side" when in reality, I'm not arguing for anything, although sometimes I argue against things with questions, but not seeking to change anyone's mind to what I believe, because I don't.
Edited by xFrockx (05/08/11 01:36 AM)
|
Mufungo
Coming at ya


Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 2,743
Loc: Knowhere
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: xFrockx]
#14417801 - 05/08/11 01:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Do you see the irony in asking what people mean when they use a word or phrase when your previous argument indicated that me providing a meaning would only obscure things further for you?
You say that you don't know what words mean. By saying that, are you also indicating that you can't/don't/won't make meaning of words?
--------------------
|
xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Instead of trying to understand people, I prefer to explain them using simple words. [Re: Mufungo]
#14417958 - 05/08/11 02:39 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
"Do you see the irony in asking what people mean when they use a word or phrase when your previous argument indicated that me providing a meaning would only obscure things further for you?"
I said asking for definitions, not meanings, obscures things further. At least asking for meaning is direct and doesn't rely on outside sources.
"By saying that, are you also indicating that you can't/don't/won't make meaning of words? "
No. Only that I don't ultimately know what they mean.
Edited by xFrockx (05/08/11 02:41 AM)
|
|