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Offlineampakine
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Piggybacking ethernet over power lines * 1
    #14356167 - 04/26/11 04:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I got a pair of these adaptors:
http://www.solwise.co.uk/net-powerline-pl-85pe-mk2.htm
that let you turn your mains into a wired network. You just hook one up to your router then you can get the internet from any electrical outlet in your house. I got the 85Mb/s ones cuz I use my xbox to play videos but if you want to stream videos to your TV you can get 200Mb/s ones. I'm getting sick of having to convert videos into a format that the xbox will play so I'm considering getting a pair of 200Mb/s ones myself.

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: ampakine]
    #14359184 - 04/27/11 01:08 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Any HAM radio enthusiasts in your area are now very, very sad :wink:

Does it work as advertised? What data rates do you actually achieve with the 85Mbps ones?

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: koraks]
    #14359507 - 04/27/11 04:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I was curious myself and started looking it up, and this person's review of a NETGEAR XAVB5001 Powerline AV 500 Adapter Kit seemed most comprehensive.


After recently dropping my satellite subscription and moving to MythTV, I needed to find a way to get HD video streams from my Antennas Direct DB2 Multi Directional HDTV Antenna and SiliconDust HDHomeRun HDHR-US Dual Networked High Definition Digital Television (White) to a TV in the house that has no options for directly wired ethernet. Wireless (G or N) didn't prove to be reliable or fast enough, so the Netgear 500 mbps (theoretical) powerline adapters seemed like a good bet.

Testing was performed in a ~3-year old house and the 2 adapters were several rooms apart from one another on the same floor. With these adapters, performance can typically vary significantly based on wiring within the house, so YMMV.

As a preview of the results, while they didn't achieve anywhere near the advertised 250 mbps (~31 MB/s) in each direction, they did perform much better than older generation powerline adapters I've used. When I plugged in the adapters, the Netgear software reported that I was getting ~220 Mbps in each direction, which was encouraging, but ultimately not even close to accurate.

In addition to testing the adapters, I also wanted to test the efficiencies of different network protocols to see what would work best for streaming HD content to my XBMC / MythTV box. Below are the results.

Testing was done using commands like the following on a Ubuntu Linux machine that tests reads and write speeds to network-mounted disk.

Write: time dd if = /dev/zero of = /mnt/storagesmb/testfilesmb1 bs=16k count=16384
Read: time dd if = /mnt/storagesmb/testfilesmb1 of= /dev /null bs=16k
(some extra spaces were added in the above lines to prevent Amazon's URL filtering from editing those lines out)

Since the focus of my testing was primarily to verify read speeds from a media frontend to a backend storage server, I did not do significant write testing.

Disk Read/Write Test Results:

Protocol Test Type File Size Rsize (nfs) Throughput
SMB Write 256MB na 03.8 MB/s
SMB Read 256MB na 03.9 MB/s
NFS v3 Write 256MB na 05.4 MB/s
NFS v3 Read 256MB 16,384 09.3 MB/s
NFS v3 Read 256MB 32,768 10.8 MB/s

*** Amazon mangles any sort of tabular data when included in a review, so if you prefer to see the review in its original format, it is also available on my blog: [...] (Unfortunately, Amazon doesn't allow URLs in reviews, so copy/paste that into your browser and remove the spaces in the URL to find it)

Next, a separate set of tests was done using iperf between two Ubuntu Linux machines. The server resides on a large RAID array capable of reads and writes upwards of 500 MB/s, so disk speeds were not a limitation in this testing.

In theory, the iperf test should remove most inefficiencies related to network protocol and show raw throughput. As it turns out, the results are very similar to the NFS testing above, which speaks well of the NFS protocol.

iperf results:

***ONE DIRECTIONAL TEST
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to 192.168.1.111, TCP port 5001
TCP window size: 16.0 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[ 3] local 192.168.1.182 port 42245 connected with 192.168.1.111 port 5001
[ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth
[ 3] 0.0-10.0 sec 90.8 MBytes 75.9 Mbits/sec (9.49 MB/s)


***BIDIRECTIONAL (SIMULTAENOUS) TEST
------------------------------------------------------------
Client connecting to 192.168.1.111, TCP port 5001
TCP window size: 55.0 KByte (default)
------------------------------------------------------------
[ 5] local 192.168.1.182 port 60753 connected with 192.168.1.111 port 5001
[ 4] local 192.168.1.182 port 5001 connected with 192.168.1.111 port 59780
[ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth
[ 5] 0.0-10.0 sec 57.4 MBytes 48.0 Mbits/sec (6.00 MB/s)
[ 4] 0.0-10.1 sec 43.0 MBytes 35.7 Mbits/sec (4.46 MB/s)

Combined => ~83.7 Mbits/sec (10.46 MB/s)


SMB vs. NFS Conclusion:
While this is probably no surprise to many, NFS is vastly more efficient. Using the same commands and testing read speeds with a 32k rsize, nfs outperforms smb by ~280%.

The difference was noticeable on XBMC performance as well. When my network shares were mounted using SMB, I was unable to smoothly stream high bitrate uncompressed 1080p bluray rips (i.e. Avatar). However, when using NFS, it played absolutely everything I could throw at it.

Netgear XAVB5001 Conclusion:
Bottom line, if your wiring is fairly modern and free of interference, while these adapters fall far short of their advertised 500 Mbps speeds, they should be more than capable of streaming your uncompressed HD content if you can serve your files via NFS. Even if you are stuck using SMB (Windows network file sharing), most of your content will work without issue, but high bitrate uncompressed bluray will likely not play 100% smoothly.


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If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #14359521 - 04/27/11 04:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

definitely interested, but i have an old turn of the century victorian house... not the best wiring... i take it they intend you to plug it directly into the wall (as opposed to a UPS?) wouldn't have an entire outlet to spare.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Offlineampakine
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: koraks]
    #14361217 - 04/27/11 01:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

double post

Edited by ampakine (04/27/11 02:16 PM)

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Offlineampakine
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: koraks]
    #14361341 - 04/27/11 02:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Any HAM radio enthusiasts in your area are now very, very sad :wink:

Does it work as advertised? What data rates do you actually achieve with the 85Mbps ones?




What do you mean about HAM radio enthusiasts?? No idea what the maximum rate I can get with these is since I only use them for internet access (because my wireless router is a piece of crap). How do I test that kinda thing out? I suppose I'll need to get another adapter and hook up another computer to it.

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
i take it they intend you to plug it directly into the wall (as opposed to a UPS?) wouldn't have an entire outlet to spare.




Whats a UPS? If you mean plug it directly into a wall socket as opposed to one of those extension cords or power strips or whatever the hell you call these things:

you don't have to plug them directly into the wall, I have mine plugged into a power strip like that one in the picture.

Before I bought this pair of 85Mb/s adapters I accidentally bought this outdated 200Mb/s one:
http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/powerline-networking/1281079/solwise-pl-200av-piggy-mk2
and I couldn't even use it since I only bought 1 of them but I had it plugged in for about an hour while I was trying to get it to communicate with the 85Mb/s ones (that turned out to be impossible) and when I went to unplug it I nearly burned myself it was so hot. I've never seen an electrical device heat up that much, I'm surprised the plastic didn't melt. I must have had a faulty one because if the model itself generated that kind of heat there would be plenty of people suing the company over house fires caused by the device. I've been using these 85Mb/s ones for 2 weeks now and they only give off moderate levels of heat.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: ampakine]
    #14365059 - 04/28/11 03:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

ah right on, a ups stands for uninterruptible power supply, it has surge protection and battery backup for power outages... anyways, good to know i guess, i got the impression that anything less than a direct connection to the wall would degrade performance :shrug:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Offlinehalo
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #14365066 - 04/28/11 03:15 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So does one need an already established internet connection for this to work? Or if I live in a house or apt. without internet service can I just plug this into the wall and be online?


--------------------
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InvisibleStopwhispering
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: halo]
    #14365342 - 04/28/11 06:15 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

halo said:
So does one need an already established internet connection for this to work? Or if I live in a house or apt. without internet service can I just plug this into the wall and be online?




You will still need an internet connection all the adaptor does is allow an alternate method of sharing that connection amongst your devices.

Edited by Stopwhispering (04/28/11 06:25 AM)

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Offlineampakine
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: halo]
    #14366572 - 04/28/11 11:58 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

halo said:
So does one need an already established internet connection for this to work? Or if I live in a house or apt. without internet service can I just plug this into the wall and be online?




Yeah its the router that sends the internet signal over the power lines. You plug an adaptor into a socket near your router then you connect the router to the adaptor with an ethernet cable. From then on you can plug a second adaptor into any electrical socket in the house and get the internet with it.

Thats an interesting idea. I know very little about how the power grids work, I wonder if you hooked a router + adaptor (obviously you'd need to build this adaptor yourself and it would be mighty dangerous hooking it up to the power lines)  up to the power lines on your street could your neighbours get the internet through their electrical outlets. I have no idea what effect the step down transformers would have on the signal. This is a far fetched idea but its definitely possible. Someone with enough expertise and determination could do this. Someone knowledgeable enough in electronics could figure out what needs to be done to make this kinda thing possible.

Edited by ampakine (04/28/11 12:03 PM)

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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,691
Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: ampakine]
    #14371083 - 04/29/11 03:23 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ampakine said:
Quote:

koraks said:
Any HAM radio enthusiasts in your area are now very, very sad :wink:

Does it work as advertised? What data rates do you actually achieve with the 85Mbps ones?




What do you mean about HAM radio enthusiasts??



The frequency spectrum of these ethernet-over-power solutions has considerable overlap with certain amateur bands. Your network is effectively garbling radio traffic in those bands. There was a bit of a discussion about this a couple of years ago, when some companies had plans to roll out internet access over power lines. Doing so would block huge areas of using those radio frequencies due to interference caused by the network infrastructure. In my country, those plans haven't materialized so far, but they probably will at one point.

Quote:

No idea what the maximum rate I can get with these is since I only use them for internet access (because my wireless router is a piece of crap). How do I test that kinda thing out? I suppose I'll need to get another adapter and hook up another computer to it.



Yes, for two-way traffic. Or for one-way traffic, just hook up another computer to your router (I assume it has a 4-port ethernet switch integrated into it) and test the effective bandwidth between the pc connected to the router and the one that is using the EoP adapter.

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Offlineampakine
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: koraks]
    #14371799 - 04/29/11 09:24 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
The frequency spectrum of these ethernet-over-power solutions has considerable overlap with certain amateur bands. Your network is effectively garbling radio traffic in those bands. There was a bit of a discussion about this a couple of years ago, when some companies had plans to roll out internet access over power lines. Doing so would block huge areas of using those radio frequencies due to interference caused by the network infrastructure. In my country, those plans haven't materialized so far, but they probably will at one point.




The wires themselves emit enough EM radiation to interfere with radio waves?

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: ampakine]
    #14374245 - 04/29/11 07:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

> The wires themselves emit enough EM radiation to interfere with radio waves?

Yes.  Because the power lines are unshielded, they act as big antennas.  The broadband over power line signals are in the same frequency range as short wave radios and low band VHF.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: ampakine]
    #14377497 - 04/30/11 12:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

There is a way around that problem. They could simply pick a portion of the spectrum that does not interfere and use it. They could use not only unused spectrum but also frequencies that are unlikely to transmit any distance. Look at the power factor and efficiencies of the power line vs frequency. I haven't done the research but i'm sure there are frequencies that while it will radiate to some degree, it would be so inefficient that less than 1% would be detected at 100' and negligible at 500'

There was talk about this over 20 years ago but it never got off the ground, possibly because of interference. Other factors might have been the cost and difficulty of using higher frequencies. Now days you can buy for $20 what would cost $2000 20 years ago.

Another way around it is to simply shield the power lines. Use existing lines but put a sleeve of copper or steel mesh over it grounded at various points. I'm not sure of the economies of doing that. If you put your signal in at the low voltage point it might go back through the transformer and radiate through the high voltage system. There are fixes for that. Simply have a bypass capacitor at the high voltage side which would filter out the high frequency component.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: Stonehenge]
    #14377740 - 04/30/11 01:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

> I haven't done the research but i'm sure there are frequencies that while it will radiate to some degree

Higher frequencies rapidly attenuate.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: Stonehenge]
    #14382105 - 05/01/11 11:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
There is a way around that problem. They could simply pick a portion of the spectrum that does not interfere and use it.



They could have done just that, but apparently, HAM radio doesn't have an effective lobby as do the manufacturers of electronic equipment. So basically, when HAM amateurs complained about this unlucky selection of frequencies, they were just ignored by the authorities.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: koraks]
    #14382504 - 05/01/11 12:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"They could have done just that, but apparently, HAM radio doesn't have an effective lobby as do the manufacturers of electronic equipment. So basically, when HAM amateurs complained about this unlucky selection of frequencies, they were just ignored by the authorities."

Then why don't we see it now?

"Higher frequencies rapidly attenuate."

That's my point exactly. If very little hf is transmitted and what little there is is rapidly attenuated, there would be negligible interference. It should not carry over from low to high voltage side via xformer because those are set up for 60 hz and would not transmit any appreciable amount of hf to the high side.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: Stonehenge]
    #14382916 - 05/01/11 02:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Do these signals leak out into the public wires on the poles, and transformers, or do they stay inside the wires of your house?

If they do spread beyond just your house, shouldn't it be possible to install a filter in your fusebox to prevent leakage?


--------------------
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: Stonehenge]
    #14383159 - 05/01/11 03:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

> That's my point exactly. If very little hf is transmitted and what little there is is rapidly attenuated, there would be negligible interference.

There is no signal left to propagate down the wire.  The spectrum used was chosen out of necessity.  If they could use a higher frequency, they would, as that would provide more bandwidth.

Sure, there all kinds of expensive things you can do to get around the problem, but the idea was to use infrastructure already in place.  It would be cheaper to run coax or fiber than to try and shield existing power lines.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Piggybacking ethernet over power lines [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #14383217 - 05/01/11 03:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

BH, the answer to that would depend on a lot of factors. I'm thinking if there was appreciable interference, they could put metal mesh sleeves over the wires going to your house. I just don't know how far it would transmit or what would be considered negligible. Another problem is do you modulate a carrier with the signal you want? That would create sidebands that might be a problem even if the carrier was ok. But if the total amount of power used in the signal was just a few milliwatts, it would not matter about any of that. The modem that pulls the signal out of the power line could amplify it easily.

If you wanted to put the signal on the high voltage side to cover a wider area with the same equipments, you could put a bypass on each transformer that served a house or houses using the service. One 7200-13000 volt circuit would feed hundreds or thousands of houses.

I'm thinking the reason they haven't done it is either because of technical problems beyond what we've discussed or economics. Or it could be politics.

"There is no signal left to propagate down the wire.  The spectrum used was chosen out of necessity.  If they could use a higher frequency, they would, as that would provide more bandwidth."

Why would no signal propagate down the wire? Cable tv signals seem to propagate quite easily. We aren't talking about thousands of gigahertz. My point was that any radiated signal would rapidly attenuate but a straight wire should carry it with no problem. What spectrum are you talking about?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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