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OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: dualism [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14371970 - 04/29/11 10:34 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
This is the old 'causal closure' argument. How can something non-physical cause a change in the physical?

The answer is simple. We define physical as all that which is defined by physics. Then we realise that our physics does not describe all of its factors - there is a random element. Then we posit that this random element is in fact open to influence from something that is not described by our physical laws.

As long as the influence keeps the physical world within the probability wave function, all the laws of physics are preserved



The influence of randomness does not imply some kind of separate essence from physical substance, IMO - it is physical substance. In my mind physical substance = qualia = randomness (i.e. I can tell red from blue, but the actual experience I have when looking at them is not really definable; it's random).


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
Female

Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: dualism [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14372194 - 04/29/11 11:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Consciousness can't change physical reality any more than I can put a hat on my shadow.




Please explain.




Hard to simplify this one any further - but the only way to put a hat on your shadow is to put the hat on your own head. You can't reach out and put a hat on the shadow itself.

Physical reality works in a similar way; it is a dynamic reflection of consciousness. The "problem of free will" rests on the assumption that the mind is created by and within physical reality, rather than the other way around.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: dualism [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14372663 - 04/29/11 01:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Consciousness can't change physical reality any more than I can put a hat on my shadow.




Please explain.




Hard to simplify this one any further - but the only way to put a hat on your shadow is to put the hat on your own head. You can't reach out and put a hat on the shadow itself.

Physical reality works in a similar way; it is a dynamic reflection of consciousness. The "problem of free will" rests on the assumption that the mind is created by and within physical reality, rather than the other way around.




I guess to put it simply. Thoughts, willing, ideas, consciousness, and mind are all pretty interchangeable whether you think them as a result of something physical or something metaphysical. Our mind tells our body what to do and our body tells our mind what to do. Or in your terms, our consciousness can change physical reality and physical reality can change our consciousness.

1. Mind tells body to consume a beer - This is consciousness changing physical reality
2. Body tells mind to take a piss - This is physical reality changing our consciousness.

The human mind or consciousness is not in a vacuum somewhere. It is inextricably linked to physical reality.

I'll leave you with a question. Can you prove to me that my mind/consciousness has no control or effect over my body(aka physical reality)?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Offline4896744
Small Town Girl
Female User Gallery

Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: dualism [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14372979 - 04/29/11 02:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I guess to put it simply. Thoughts, willing, ideas, consciousness, and mind are all pretty interchangeable whether you think them as a result of something physical or something metaphysical. Our mind tells our body what to do and our body tells our mind what to do. Or in your terms, our consciousness can change physical reality and physical reality can change our consciousness.

1. Mind tells body to consume a beer - This is consciousness changing physical reality
2. Body tells mind to take a piss - This is physical reality changing our consciousness.

The human mind or consciousness is not in a vacuum somewhere. It is inextricably linked to physical reality.

I'll leave you with a question. Can you prove to me that my mind/consciousness has no control or effect over my body(aka physical reality)?






Your problem is that you separate consciousness from physical reality. The conscience is physical reality, we just do not have a good understanding of it yet. In essence, you have it backwards. All of your "physical reality" is what completely controls the conscience.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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Offlinesoldatheero
lastirishman
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: dualism [Re: NetDiver]
    #14373050 - 04/29/11 02:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

quote]There's no "you" though. I disagree with all this talk about spirits on a philosophical basis. Look at your own personal identity. It is fluid, constantly changing, unfixed. It changes and evolves along with your body/the physical world (because that's what it is). There is no fixed essence that makes you "you."





I disagree that there is no "me" just because my "personal idenity" is in flux, probably because I your idea of personal idenity is false or your concept of personal identity is false. The things that are caused by me and that can be attributed to me are NOT me.
Emptiness is form and I am empty but I exist none the less.

Quote:

Can someone explain how, if there was some non-physical kind of "stuff," it would be able to interact with matter at all?




Well thats the mystery tho isn't it. However you say "if there was this non-physical stuff" as if it is hypothetical when on the contrary it is all that can be known. You can look inward and observe yourself and it cannot be denied that our experience is a non-physical occurance. What can be denied is this non non-physical stuff that you call matter.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
Female

Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: dualism [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14373741 - 04/29/11 05:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
I'll leave you with a question. Can you prove to me that my mind/consciousness has no control or effect over my body(aka physical reality)?




This question relies upon the fallacious ontology of mind/body dualism.

The mind is reflected in physical reality (itself a manifestation of the mind) - most closely in your body, but more distantly in everybody and everything else.

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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: dualism [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14373833 - 04/29/11 05:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
I'll leave you with a question. Can you prove to me that my mind/consciousness has no control or effect over my body(aka physical reality)?




This question relies upon the fallacious ontology of mind/body dualism.

The mind is reflected in physical reality (itself a manifestation of the mind) - most closely in your body, but more distantly in everybody and everything else.




So the consciousness and physical reality are one in the same?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: dualism [Re: 4896744]
    #14373848 - 04/29/11 05:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

I guess to put it simply. Thoughts, willing, ideas, consciousness, and mind are all pretty interchangeable whether you think them as a result of something physical or something metaphysical. Our mind tells our body what to do and our body tells our mind what to do. Or in your terms, our consciousness can change physical reality and physical reality can change our consciousness.

1. Mind tells body to consume a beer - This is consciousness changing physical reality
2. Body tells mind to take a piss - This is physical reality changing our consciousness.

The human mind or consciousness is not in a vacuum somewhere. It is inextricably linked to physical reality.

I'll leave you with a question. Can you prove to me that my mind/consciousness has no control or effect over my body(aka physical reality)?






Your problem is that you separate consciousness from physical reality. The conscience is physical reality, we just do not have a good understanding of it yet. In essence, you have it backwards. All of your "physical reality" is what completely controls the conscience.




I've not so much done that. In my initial posts in this thread I agree with the OP that physical reality and consciousness are on the same continuum. One side of the continuum can affect the other side imo.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Offlinezoomfan
doubt 'er
Male

Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 505
Loc: eastern Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: dualism [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14375165 - 04/29/11 10:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i think to really understand this kind of stuff you need to have a more wholistic view of consciousness. consciousness isnt just thoughts sensations etc as opposed to physical reality, just as smell isnt just smell. it is a relationship between two organized groupings of particles, to say that there is a duality, or a split between physical reality and consciousness is ridiculous to me. When electricity is introduced into a lightbulb, the effect is light, just as when manure particles react with olfactory sensors, smell is produced. we still have the same problem describing what light is, as we do what smell is. we can say light is photons but what are photons? and we come to a point of infinite regression or whatever. if smell isnt physical ...then following the same logic, nothing is physical.


--------------------
Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.

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Offlineunsui888
Embodied
I'm a teapot

Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 1,154
Loc: United States
Last seen: 5 months, 1 day
Re: dualism [Re: zoomfan]
    #14382158 - 05/01/11 11:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i've always viewed this dualism thing as basically a double aspecticism view, which says that the mind and the body are not distinct substances, rather they're two different aspects of the same substance - sort of like Spinoza's monism. i have had a theory/thought that there's 3 basic levels to reality and one level is duality, one level consists of the monist view mentioned above where the duality is seen as unity, and the other level is nothing... we're very accustomed, perhaps from our natural perception human processes, to the dualistic framework/structure, but this is not to say we can't reach other levels of reality via higher levels of consciousness, if there is such a thing...


--------------------
"a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing"

primus------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool

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