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OfflineMike Elium
.the Mycelium

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 245
Loc: on the edge
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Hermes_br]
    #1452696 - 04/12/03 02:05 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Hermes
Thanks for experiential link....Seems like the fact that AIRDOG noticed something "different", as emphasized, lends credence to the hypothesis that the comparison is not simply the relative amount or percentage of psilocybin/psilocyn / potency alone. It appears that he liked whatever this difference was, too, since he preferred the combination ('best ones...have cubes and copes").


--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.

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Invisiblemjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Hermes_br]
    #1452765 - 04/12/03 02:43 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Panaeolus sphinctrinus is not a psychoactive species having been misidentified by Rolf Singer in the 1950s and later amended by him.

And you willnever see cubes and copes inthe saem manure piles. It does not happen. All though it is possible but unlikely.

mjshroomer

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InvisibleHermes_br
~~~
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Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 546
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1452809 - 04/12/03 03:05 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

-> "Panaeolus sphinctrinus is not a psychoactive species having been misidentified by Rolf Singer in the 1950s and later amended by him."

i know that , but it might have tryptophan, 5-hydroxytryptophan and other tryptophan related alkaloids.(not psilocybine/psilocyne/baeocystine)

here's the pic from GGreatOne234


Edited by Hermes_br (04/12/03 03:08 PM)

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Invisiblemjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Hermes_br]
    #1453372 - 04/12/03 06:57 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

here is my photo of P. sphinctrinus.

of course it has tryptamines but nothing psychoactive.

hundreds of plants also have trytamines but that means diidily-squat as far as magic goes,



mjshroomer

Edited by mjshroomer (04/12/03 06:59 PM)

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InvisibleGGreatOne234
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/99
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1453428 - 04/12/03 07:15 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Hey folks,

I prefer the Cubensis.

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OfflineMike Elium
.the Mycelium

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 245
Loc: on the edge
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1453485 - 04/12/03 07:36 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

MJ

Don't you think these additional naturally occurring chemicals in Pans COULD affect the experience somehow, even though they themselves may not be psychotropic.... just in having some kind of somatic effect.....even as a calmative/ relaxant ? Just as if you took a capsule of 5-HTP or Nicacinamide before eating Cubensis? Other than potency, do Pans and Cubes seem exactly the same to you? I know in your earlier post you equated 2 gr Pans = 5 gr Cubes, but other than that, can you yourself notice NO other difference?


--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.

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Invisiblemjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
    #1454472 - 04/13/03 09:31 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

The copes seem to have a more speedier effect that cubes, but then that might just be me.

Psilocine and psilocybine are exactly what they are. The high can very but that depends on set and setting and expectations.

And again, there are different amohunts from batch to batch and from flush to flush. Where you are at, who you are with, and what you might do are all part of what makes a trip worth tripping.

mj

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Offlinediggitydankman
No longer aCannabisConnoisseur

Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 479
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Last seen: 20 years, 11 months
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1454478 - 04/13/03 09:38 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I agree, set and settign have more to do with your trip and how it developes than the miniscule amounts of the other various tryptamines. All of my trips have been off of cubensis, yet if I did not know the mushroom given to me I would have thought that I had received something other than a cubensis.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool

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OfflineMike Elium
.the Mycelium

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 245
Loc: on the edge
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1457842 - 04/14/03 05:38 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

MJ,

Thanks not only for your objective analysis, but also for your subjective bioassay evaluation. And of course I agree on the set & setting thing.



Diggitydankman,
I have no disagreement with your first statement, but I gotta admit I don't understand the second (sentence).


--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.

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Offlinediggitydankman
No longer aCannabisConnoisseur

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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
    #1457864 - 04/14/03 05:49 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

If I was given the same dose of cubes, but in say a tea or chocolate not being able to see them, I would have trouble judging what mushrooms I had eaten due to the changes in setting and the variations that this alone has caused in my trips.

It is easy to say that different psilocybian mushrooms yield different trips, but how can the variances in minor tryptamines affect this? My conclusion is that it is all in the head. Start eating chocolates without being able to tell what mushroom is in there and then see if the trips are still different. I bet they will be and you would not be able to tell the difference as long as the chocolates had same apx. psilocybin levels.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool

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OfflineRoger_irrelevant
War's boring,change thechannel!

Registered: 11/22/01
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1459342 - 04/15/03 02:55 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

If I was given the same dose of cubes, but in say a tea or chocolate not being able to see them, I would have trouble judging what mushrooms I had eaten due to the changes in setting and the variations that this alone has caused in my trips. 

It is easy to say that different psilocybian mushrooms yield different trips, but how can the variances in minor tryptamines affect this?  My conclusion is that it is all in the head.  Start eating chocolates without being able to tell what mushroom is in there and then see if the trips are still different.  I bet they will be and you would not be able to tell the difference as long as the chocolates had same apx. psilocybin levels. 




You're probably right, but I have to agree with MJ about the speedy effects of pans. I know i'm not the only one who compares pans to acid. I've yet to have a trip of the "same" quality from cubies.
Even as I write this the logic of the quote above nags me. :smile: 


--------------------
We are the music makers, We are the dreamers of dreams...

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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1459389 - 04/15/03 03:32 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I drink chocolet milk with my shrooms. I do not mix theminto various foods. I also, like 99% of everyone who eats shrooms, wants to see the shrooms that they are eating. ANyone could put anything into a chocolate and tell you it is shrooms. Thrtee to five grams are very hard to put into a chocolate. Especially dried when that is a lot of powder.

Reminds me of people who think there is speed on blotter acid. These is no way to put enought meth on a little piece of paper acid to affect the trip. But the chocolaets are starting to pop up at parties and raves and this brings heat to the shrooms.

mj

The Aztecs served the shrooms with chocolet and /or honey.

But I tend to drink a pint with my shrooms which I take 20 to 30 minutes to eat, just like the Mazatecs do before a ceremony. A slow come-on to the high and your nervous suystem is not affected byt he fast onslaught of a tea, soup or smoothie, or even chocolet candy for that matter.

Thanks for sharing and have a shroomy day,

mj

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Registered: 06/18/01
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1459554 - 04/15/03 05:41 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I think set and setting have quite a bit to do with the experience, but that they are over-rated.
Anno, Roadkill, Hongus, and a host of other experienced with bioassay of a variety of species have all indicated in their posts and to me personally that they have noted consistant species-dependent differences in experiences. You have also indicated this MJ. I myself would suggest that the experience from Ps.Subaeruginosa, Ps.Eucalypta, Ps.Cubensis, Pan cyans and ps.Semilanceata are all notably different and consistant through at least 20 bioassays of each (other than semilanceata). I am well versed in the concepts of set and setting, and my experiences suggests that these concepts are adopted generally by those that lack these experiences. Or to oversimplify the issue.
It poor science to make an assumption that automatically the inclusion and presense of high levels of tryptophan related alkaloids have no affect on the bioassay experiences from these mushrooms.
The first point raised being that they are not in a significant quantity, when i have demonstrated that Gartz certainly did find significantly high amounts of tryptophan type alkaloids in Ps.Weilli.
The second point - demonstrated without any real evidence - is that tryptophans are not generally active. Sure i concede that many of these are not, but as they very molecularly similar to psilocybin and because psilocybin is a biological conversion of these alkaloids this cannot be ruled out that they may have some affect on the experience. And this is before i discuss the fluctuations of enzymes in these mushrooms that react with psilocybin during oxidisation.
Mj we tend to debate a lot - btw Ive got the DNA analysis of Subaeruginosa and allies coming in by friday (finally!)


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OfflineMike Elium
.the Mycelium

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 245
Loc: on the edge
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1459597 - 04/15/03 06:19 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

This post continues to be very informative, lots of input from very experienced Shroomerites as well as lots of analysis of the potential influences of the various chemistry in different species. (THANKS!)

One thing I noticed, both from specific posts plus a couple of PMs, is that some people consider Pans (relative to Cubes) to be "smoother", or have an easier transition into the experience, while others say Pans are "speedier". This is kind of interesting, since those 2 concepts - smoother vs speedier - would generally be considered to be somewhat opposites. It could be that this is just a matter of individual interpretation of that particular aspect of the experience.....or possibly a reflection of distinctly different effects of SOMETHING in the mushroom on different people (something besides psilocyn/psilocybin?)



--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.

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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
    #1459789 - 04/15/03 08:59 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Well Mike Elieum,

As for speedeier, that is one effect from mushrooms which has nothing to do with speed. AS I noted in anoterh post elsewhere that many who take LSD report a speedy effect. That is part of the high of LSD. It amazes me that peopple would suggest that ther was speed on window pane and speed in blotter acid. There is no way to get enough amphetamine on a single hit of acid or on a single window pane. That is just one of the effects of the shrooms.

When taken in the form of liwuids such as tea, soup or smoothines the comeone is very fast and short and can be compared with a spped rush since it is like a rocket taking off and that is very fast/.

IT is just one of the manty effects of mushrooms onthe himan bodyies nervous system.

Have a shroomy day

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Offlinediggitydankman
No longer aCannabisConnoisseur

Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 479
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Last seen: 20 years, 11 months
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1459875 - 04/15/03 10:04 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I may suggest that pans have a speedier effect as it generally takes far fewer grams to reach the desired affect. With less content it can be assumed that the stomach can breakdown the mushrooms quicker and therefore the psilocin can be absorbed from the GI tract much quicker. This in itself will lead to a more overwhelming effect as larger doses of psilocin reach the brain quicker and the waves of coming up will be stronger.

Blue Meanie, I do not really think that every trytophan or tryptamine in psilocybian mushrooms has absolutely no effect on the body during the trip. I find it hard to believe that the varying levels can afffect a trip much. I would say almost a third of the alkaloids in shrooms will not be able to pass the blood brain barrier. (Psilocin normally would not be able to cross the blood brain barrier due to the hydroxide ion attached but is able to due to the internal bonding (same thing used to fend off MAO from oxidizing it) , Bufotenin which is the 5-hydroxy isomer of psilocin can not cross the blood brain barrier. DMT which does not have the prior stated internal bonding is quickly oxidized my MAO's (just showing how hard it is to make it to BBB let alone pass through)) I just do not understand that if only one-third to one quarter of the trptamines and/or trptophans we ingest are making it to the brain (at least a third-quarter lost from each MAO and the BBB) how are the other chemicals truly affecting the experience. We know that psilocin, (nor) baeocystin, and most amino acids from shrooms (L-tryptophan, etc.. which I may add have all undergone extensive testing up to the one to two gram mark without any hallucinogenic experiences) will pass the BBB. This does not leave many other alkaloids that could sway the experience. I have thouroughly enjoyed this conversation and have learned quite a bit myslef from it, thank you to all those who have participated.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool

Edited by diggitydankman (04/15/03 04:08 PM)

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InvisibleHermes_br
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1460117 - 04/15/03 11:41 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Well folks,
the keyword here is SYNERGY ,bioassay(personal experience) and lack of cientific proof.

all those minute alkaloids may work in conjunction, do a google on 'Gramine' for instance.
although serotonine does not cross the blood-brain barrier it may affect the other body receptors when in synergy with the main alkaloids.
Bufotenine ,according to Jonathan Ott, CAN cross the b-b barrier when taken as a basified snuff.
5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) crosses the b-b barrier due to active transportation, that could occur to  other alkaloids as well.

here's more info:
post on Mushroom Cultivation

and:
TITLE: Presence of phenylethylamine in hallucinogenic Psilocybe mushroom: possible role in adverse reactions.
AUTHORS: Beck O; Helander A; Karlson-Stiber C; Stephansson N
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Clinical Pharmacology, Karolinska Hospital, Stockholm, Sweden.
SOURCE: J Anal Toxicol 1998 Jan-Feb;22(1):45-9
CITATION IDS: PMID: 9491968 UI: 98150932
ABSTRACT: The use of mushrooms containing the hallucinogenic substance psilocybin for intentional intoxication is relatively common. Occasionally, this results in adverse reactions with typical tachycardia that is not evidently caused by psilocybin. This study demonstrates the presence of phenylethylamine in the species Psilocybe semilanceata using gas chromatography-mass spectrometry and shows that the amount of this substance may vary much more than that of psilocybin. The highest amount of phenylethylamine (146 microg/g wet weight) was observed in mushrooms from a case of three young men hospitalized because of adverse reactions. Comparison of the symptoms observed in clinical cases of magic mushroom intoxication with those after intake of pure psilocybin or phenylethylamine suggests that phenylethylamine might have a role in the development of adverse reactions to Psilocybe mushroom intake.

thirdly: this discussion seems to be endless :shocked: :smile:




   

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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Hermes_br]
    #1460187 - 04/15/03 12:04 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Mnny of us do not agree with this report.l There is no speed in shrooms. And to bring up a point of interest it is like the FBI report in the Journal of Forensic Science which claims they analysed many batches of in vitro grown shrooms and found no psilocine/psilocybine in the mycelium.

Of course those who grow know that there is.

I believe that paper on the phenylethylamines was a false positive. Stijve and a few other people I know also examined shrooms for that and found no amphetamines in their research of such shrooms. They did not publish..

mj.

Maybe those kids were already speeding. I have the article somewhere but i discounted it a while back as a false positive.

mj

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1462951 - 04/16/03 03:53 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

The idea that Panaeolus species have a more 'speedy' biaossay due to their higher content in alkaloids is doesnt hold true.
Psilocybe Subearuginosa, Eucalypta, Semilanceata, etc all have alkaloid contents at significantly higher concentrations than Panaeolus species. Infact considerable intoxications of some regional varieties of Subaeruginosa can be had from the ingestion of around eight specimens.
You contention if sound should find us noting that these woodloving (or grass with Semilanceata) would have an even 'speedier' experience, and this certainly is not true.
Infact, unlike most coprophilous species, some woodlovers are found to produce significant physical affects (Azurescens and Eucalypta) that cause cramping of the leg muscles that i have never experienced with other psilocybes and the cause of this is yet to be accounted for.
I am quite aware of the blood brain barrier but my contention holds sound if these other present alkaloids are able to bond to apply synongy with those alkaloids that we are aware are able to cross the blood-brain barrier. The whole process is understudied and at the end of the day I know there are differences - and im sure anyone who has significant experience with these mushrooms would agree.


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Offlinediggitydankman
No longer aCannabisConnoisseur

Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Michgan
Last seen: 20 years, 11 months
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1463265 - 04/16/03 08:56 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I have never had experience with any woodloving species and will trust what you say as I was merely pondering the "what ifs" of this situation.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool

Edited by diggitydankman (04/16/03 03:26 PM)

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