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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: Poid]
    #14367632 - 04/28/11 03:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I've used this on you before Poid, and I doubt you'll be any more receptive this time to such an elegant deconstruction of your ham-fisted logic, but we might as well hold the German language responsible for World Wars I and II.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14367650 - 04/28/11 03:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Also, Poid, you quoted a lot of passages about "Jihad," which is often mis-interpreted to mean a full-scale war- when in reality it's just the arabic word for "struggle." In the Qua'ran it refers as much to an internal struggle against your temptations as an external war.


Jihad
Quote:

Muslims use the word in a religious context to refer to three types of struggles: an internal struggle to maintain faith, the struggle to improve the Muslim society, or the struggle to defend Islam.




Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Not asking that you trust me (over Bin Laden), just that you attempt a rational, objective interpretation instead of just swallowing the media's sensationalist interpretation.


Sure.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14367661 - 04/28/11 03:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I've used this on you before Poid, and I doubt you'll be any more receptive this time to such an elegant deconstruction of your ham-fisted logic...


Yet you can never deconstruct my logic. :lol:

Or even have a civil debate for that matter. :sad:


Quote:

Tchan909 said:
...but we might as well hold the German language responsible for World Wars I and II.


Talk about "ham-fisted" logic. :rofl:

Why do you think religion = language?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: Poid]
    #14367685 - 04/28/11 03:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Can you read, man? I did not say that religion = language. Both, however, are cultural systems used to co-ordinate individuals in society.

Would Pearl Harbor have been bombed if Emperor Hirohito had no language with which to command his bombers? No. So by your logic, we should abolish the Japanese language so that such atrocities never occur again.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: Poid]
    #14367686 - 04/28/11 03:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, by posting those dictionary definitions you proved my point. I said "as much of an internal struggle as a war," not "entirely about internal struggle and not about war at all." And it's right there in the definition. Your bolded letters can't hide it. :lol:

Plus, most religions have some sort of provisions for war. Check out everything St. Thomas Aquinas wrote about "just war" and "divine command."

Now, care to determine which of the verses you posted refer to which kind of "jihad," and remove the ones that aren't referring to violent war?

Or would you rather admit that you included all of those verses that mention "jihad" based upon an ignorant interpretation (or a deliberately wrong one), with the intention of making it seem like there were more verses condoning violence than there really are?


--------------------

Edited by NetDiver (04/28/11 03:46 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14367723 - 04/28/11 03:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Can you read, man? I did not say that religion = language. Both, however, are cultural systems used to co-ordinate individuals in society.


I thought you implied that, I didn't think you typed it (Can I read, :lol:).

In what way is religion used to coordinate individuals in society? Do you honestly think that's its purpose?


Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Would Pearl Harbor have been bombed if Emperor Hirohito had no language with which to command his bombers? No. So by your logic, we should abolish the Japanese language so that such atrocities never occur again.


Language
Quote:

Language may refer either to the specifically human capacity for acquiring and using complex systems of communication, or to a specific instance of such a system of complex communication.


Religion
Quote:

Religion is a cultural system that creates powerful and long-lasting meaning by establishing symbols that relate humanity to beliefs and values.




Yeah, totally similar.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14367734 - 04/28/11 03:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Now, care to determine which of the verses you posted refer to which kind of "jihad," and remove the ones that aren't referring to violent war?


Pretty much all of the ones that say "fight" and "war".


Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Or would you rather admit that you included all of those verses that mention "jihad" based upon an ignorant interpretation (or a deliberately wrong one), with the intention of making it seem like there were more verses condoning violence than there really are?


I can't admit that because that's not what I thought--not all of those verses mention the term "jihad", they are specifically (obviously) about the type of jihad that I put in bold.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: Poid]
    #14367739 - 04/28/11 03:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, I think religions were created in order to provide for social harmony and societal norms.

What do YOU think religion is for?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14367743 - 04/28/11 03:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
When deciding whether or not a specific religion condones violence, you have to look to the texts.


Why, because you say so? :lol:

Religion is a cultural system, which means that it is made up of people. This further means that the actions of any religious person reflect on his/her religion.




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14367755 - 04/28/11 03:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The vast majority of the verses that mention Jihad do not mention violence or war.

Shit, generally I'm the last one to defend religion, but your claim that Islam is inherently more violent than Christianity is just plain wrong. Christianity has incited violence in the past when Islam wasn't doing so as well.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14367760 - 04/28/11 03:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
What do YOU think religion is for?


To provide "long-lasting meaning".


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: Poid]
    #14367768 - 04/28/11 03:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Do you copy all of your personal meanings wholesale from external sources?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14367775 - 04/28/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Shit, generally I'm the last one to defend religion, but your claim that Islam is inherently more violent than Christianity is just plain wrong.


I never said that it's inherently more violent than Christianity--Islam, today, is more violent that Christianity. How can you deny this? :what:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14367783 - 04/28/11 03:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Do you copy all of your personal meanings wholesale from external sources?


What do you mean by "personal meanings"? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: Poid]
    #14367792 - 04/28/11 03:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I asked you what YOU thought religion was for and you quoted a dictionary definition at me.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14367798 - 04/28/11 03:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, and?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14367807 - 04/28/11 03:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
The vast majority of the verses that mention Jihad do not mention violence or war.




Who cares?  What verses say is irrelevant, what people do in the name if Jihad is.

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Shit, generally I'm the last one to defend religion, but your claim that Islam is inherently more violent than Christianity is just plain wrong. Christianity has incited violence in the past when Islam wasn't doing so as well.




Islam is the most violent religion on the planet today.  No other religion is even close.  Every single country that borders and Islamic country has constant violence and war.  To think otherwise is politically correct foolishness and naivety.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14367812 - 04/28/11 03:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well, that's obviously not what you think religion is for, it's how the dictionary defines religion.

I'm just wondering if you've ever tried the whole "thinking for yourself" thang.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14367819 - 04/28/11 04:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Making up definitions on the spot to suit your preconceived beliefs is not 'thinking for yourself'.  Its intellectual laziness.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why Not Do A Little Religion? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14367822 - 04/28/11 04:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I'm just wondering if you've ever tried the whole "thinking for yourself" thang.


Ah, so quoting definitions means I don't think for myself? Genius.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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