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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Getting better? I don't fucking think so
    #14366033 - 04/28/11 09:55 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

I believe it was yesterday that my friend Madtowntripper asked if I thought things were getting better.  He cited some examples in this post.  Well news tends to be timely.  Here are the latest biopsies of the economy:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/42796520
Growth at 1.8%.  That is NOT enough by anyone's measure.  Not enough to tread water and certainly not what one would expect (and demand) in a recovery from an abysmal last few years.
Inflation is also rising and that doesn't account for food and gas prices.  Growth is down supposedly because food and gas prices are up but, in spite of low growth, prices, excluding food and gas, are rising.  Houston, we have a problem.

That article goes on to paint a somewhat rosy picture about employment but you will find that contradicted here:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/More-people-applied-for-apf-1056781553.html?x=0&.v=2

Quote:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- More people sought unemployment benefits last week, the second rise in three weeks, a sign of the slow and uneven jobs recovery.

Applications for unemployment benefits jumped 25,000 to a seasonally adjusted 429,000 for the week ending April 23, the Labor Department said Thursday. That's the highest total since late January.




And what do some of these morons blame that on?  Easter.

The ugly truth is that even if there had never been a recession any of this marginally positive sounding movement wouldn't adequately absorb the population increase.  Much less would it be pulling us upward to anywhere near where we were.  I further maintain that true unemployment is vastly higher than the official releases purport and that the new normal being touted by the welfare freaks to justify YET MORE social spending and handouts is unacceptable, not necessary and not inevitable.  The socialists are driving this bus off a cliff of government spending and business destruction.  They need to be removed.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14366178 - 04/28/11 10:38 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

> I further maintain that true unemployment is vastly higher than the official releases purport

Agree with you completely.  I'd love to know what the real unemployment rate is, including those that want to work, but no longer qualify unemployment benefits.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Seuss]
    #14366276 - 04/28/11 10:58 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

I'm going to guess that it's close to 20%.

Yep.  Did a little search.
http://behavioraleconomy.gallup.com/2011/01/real-unemployment-in-us-above-19.html

I'm gonna add that I think that number might be deceptive as well since it doesn't account for the completely unemployed who would work and only accounts ofr the part-timers who want full time work.  Then there is the construction industry......
http://lansner.ocregister.com/2011/02/04/construction-umeployment-hits-22-5/98400/

Over 20% just counting people who are counted in the official stats that are bunk.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14366291 - 04/28/11 11:02 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

> Over 20% just counting people who are counted in the official stats that are bunk.

That is a lot of Obama voters, assuming he follows Chevez and blames the rich for their plight along with giving them some money right before the election.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Seuss]
    #14366337 - 04/28/11 11:13 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

I don't think they are going to be voting that way.


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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14366454 - 04/28/11 11:36 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

Austerity: If it worked for Hoover*, it'll work for us!

*May not have worked for Hoover.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: jimbotron]
    #14366471 - 04/28/11 11:39 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

Debt and redistribution:  If it worked for Greece*.

*May not have worked for Greece.


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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14379543 - 04/30/11 09:00 PM (13 years, 21 days ago)

I take it your answer is to put the fools who drove the bus off the cliff back in power?  Bush launched two wars financed by the deficit and did a major expansion of medicare financed by the deficit, and cut taxes during a period of budget deficits on top of it all.  Now, the Republicans who are claiming fiscal responsibility have enough votes to prevent putting the Clinton era tax rates back in place, so the choice is anarchy, disintegrating infrastructure, abolishing medicare, etc.  Meanwhile, corporate profits are going through the roof, but they get a tax cut.

I agree the unemployment rate is well above what is advertised.  When you figure in the engineers other professionals who are sweeping the floor at walmart because that's all they can get, the figures are even higher.

I would suggest Obama submit to Congress a temporary war tax to finance Iraq and Afghanistan.  If the wars are worth fighting, then they're worth doing so on a balanced budget.  If they won't pass a tax hike to fund the wars, load up our troops and bring them home.  It's obscene to be borrowing 40 cents on the dollar.  The Clinton era tax rates should be put back in place, and then when the budget is balanced and the debt is paid off, that 40 cents on the dollar can be returned to all of us in the form of a real tax cut and a restoration of the raided social security trust fund which I've been paying into for 40 years.
RR


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14381694 - 05/01/11 08:44 AM (13 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I take it your answer is to put the fools who drove the bus off the cliff back in power?  Bush launched two wars financed by the deficit and did a major expansion of medicare financed by the deficit, and cut taxes during a period of budget deficits on top of it all.  Now, the Republicans who are claiming fiscal responsibility have enough votes to prevent putting the Clinton era tax rates back in place, so the choice is anarchy, disintegrating infrastructure, abolishing medicare, etc.  Meanwhile, corporate profits are going through the roof, but they get a tax cut.




There was no tax cut, the medicare expansion is why I say Bush was NOT fiscally conservative, the wars were a relatively minor expense spread over several years and were eclipsed in one year by Obama and the Demtards.  Doesn't it seem remarkably retarded to add a greater tax burden to an already reeling populace?  Instead of shrinking government?
Quote:



I agree the unemployment rate is well above what is advertised.  When you figure in the engineers other professionals who are sweeping the floor at walmart because that's all they can get, the figures are even higher.




I doubt that is much of a significant number but under-employment is certainly an issue.  Consider law school graduates.
Quote:



I would suggest Obama submit to Congress a temporary war tax to finance Iraq and Afghanistan.  If the wars are worth fighting, then they're worth doing so on a balanced budget.  If they won't pass a tax hike to fund the wars, load up our troops and bring them home.  It's obscene to be borrowing 40 cents on the dollar.  The Clinton era tax rates should be put back in place, and then when the budget is balanced and the debt is paid off, that 40 cents on the dollar can be returned to all of us in the form of a real tax cut and a restoration of the raided social security trust fund which I've been paying into for 40 years.
RR



I think it is time to bring the boys back home now, anyway.  They've done all they can do in Afghanistan and they've done all they needed to do in Iraq.  And no, I do not believe that increasing the deficits of individual US citizens to pay the government's deficit is fiscally sound.  It rewards bad actors for bad behavior.

All of us?  You mean the half of the population that pays nothing?

Soc sec trust fund?  :rofl2:  It aws liberals who foisted that Ponzi scheme on us and it is liberals who insisted Soc Sec revenue go into the general revenue stream and liberals who took that money and gave it away as if they were real philanthropists.  Your side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14382270 - 05/01/11 12:02 PM (13 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There was no tax cut



Everyone but you seems to understand we're talking about the tax rates which were cut.  That in turn cut the revenue that we could have received.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
the wars were a relatively minor expense spread over several years



You think $1 trillion+ is a relatively minor expense?

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Doesn't it seem remarkably retarded to add a greater tax burden to an already reeling populace?



Yes, it does, but obviously you haven't been following this.  The only proposal on the table is to restore taxes on the people who are not reeling (those making over $250k/yr).

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I would suggest Obama submit to Congress a temporary war tax to finance Iraq and Afghanistan.  If the wars are worth fighting, then they're worth doing so on a balanced budget.  If they won't pass a tax hike to fund the wars, load up our troops and bring them home.



I agree.  :thumbup:

Edit:  Corrected name associated with the last quote above.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/01/11 01:31 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14382334 - 05/01/11 12:17 PM (13 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There was no tax cut



Everyone but you seems to understand we're talking about the tax rates which were cut.  That in turn cut the revenue that we could have received.




How do you know you could have received it?  You don't.  If you mean rate cut fucking write, "rate cut" instead of lying.
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
the wars were a relatively minor expense spread over several years



You think $1 trillion+ is a relatively minor expense?




Spread over several years?  Yes, absolutely yes compared to what Obama did in just one year.  I also think those wars were necessary and productive.
Quote:

 

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Doesn't it seem remarkably retarded to add a greater tax burden to an already reeling populace?



Yes, it does, but obviously you haven't been following this.  The only proposal on the table is to restore taxes on the people who are not reeling (those making over $250k/yr).




What makes you think those people aren't reeling?  Who do you think got hammered the most?  That isn't that much fucking money when you're paying a mortgage and college tuition for two kids and live in one of the most expensive areas of the country that is home to your business.  WE ALREADY ARE PAYING A DISGUSTINGLY HUGE PORTION OF THE BILL!
Quote:

 

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I would suggest Obama submit to Congress a temporary war tax to finance Iraq and Afghanistan.  If the wars are worth fighting, then they're worth doing so on a balanced budget.  If they won't pass a tax hike to fund the wars, load up our troops and bring them home.



I agree.  :thumbup:




That wasn't me, that was the other Commie.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14382695 - 05/01/11 01:29 PM (13 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Everyone but you seems to understand we're talking about the tax rates which were cut.  That in turn cut the revenue that we could have received.




How do you know you could have received it?  You don't.



Of course we would have received more.  39.6% of someone's income is more than 35%.  :wtf:

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If you mean rate cut fucking write, "rate cut" instead of lying.



It's a tax cut from what the Gov't would have received; everyone but you understands this.  Again, 35% is less than 39.6% (in case you are struggling with math).

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The only proposal on the table is to restore taxes on the people who are not reeling (those making over $250k/yr).




What makes you think those people aren't reeling?  Who do you think got hammered the most?  That isn't that much fucking money when you're paying a mortgage and college tuition for two kids and live in one of the most expensive areas of the country that is home to your business.



My bad.  I thought you were the 'zappaisgod' that complains when union workers make an outrageous $100k per year.  I guess you're actually sympathetic.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/01/11 02:57 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14383749 - 05/01/11 05:04 PM (13 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Everyone but you seems to understand we're talking about the tax rates which were cut.  That in turn cut the revenue that we could have received.




How do you know you could have received it?  You don't.



Of course we would have received more.  39.6% of someone's income is more than 35%.  :wtf:




Strangely enough you think nobody changes their behavior because of the tax code.  What a monumental piece of ignorance.  They will structure their income to reflect that.  See:  History.
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If you mean rate cut fucking write, "rate cut" instead of lying.



It's a tax cut from what the Gov't would have received; everyone but you understands this.  Again, 35% is less than 39.6% (in case you are struggling with math).




See above.  You have to be abysmally ignorant to believe people will do the same thing when the penalty is much higher.  Abysmal.
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The only proposal on the table is to restore taxes on the people who are not reeling (those making over $250k/yr).




What makes you think those people aren't reeling?  Who do you think got hammered the most?  That isn't that much fucking money when you're paying a mortgage and college tuition for two kids and live in one of the most expensive areas of the country that is home to your business.



My bad.  I thought you were the 'zappaisgod' that complains when union workers make an outrageous $100k per year.  I guess you're actually sympathetic.





Unless you are math challenged you will realize that the overpaid drones aren't the ones you and the Otard are looking to fuck.  And the overpaid drones are the ones looking to fuck me.  $250K aint "rich".  Not by a long shot around here.  I got a better idea.  Let's fire all the municipal union garbagemen and have all the welfare recipients do their jobs for their benefits.  That will reduce the tax burden on taxpayers.  Then on top of that we can make sure that everybody pays at least some income taxes, instead of none at all like a huge portion of the population pays right now.  Then we'll see how much the great unwashed thinks about government spending.

By the way, it isn't just entitlements that I despise as government spending.  Why do we have ATF, DEA, FBI all doing what should be in one bureaucracy?  EPA AND DEC?  There are numerous examples.  Why is there a federal Department of Education at all?  NEA?


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OfflineHeffy
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #14385702 - 05/01/11 10:25 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Arguing with Zappa is like trying to teach a hamster to play the banjo.

Amusing, but ultimately pointless, and a waste of time.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14385986 - 05/01/11 11:13 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Strangely enough you think nobody changes their behavior because of the tax code.  What a monumental piece of ignorance.  They will structure their income to reflect that.  See:  History.



Your "History" link is broken.  :wink:  Please show me some evidence, just like I've shown graphical evidence of the opposite.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You have to be abysmally ignorant to believe people will do the same thing when the penalty is much higher.  Abysmal.



I can tell when you've lost an argument.  It's when you stop providing any facts and switch to name calling.  :lol:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Heffy]
    #14386073 - 05/01/11 11:32 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Heffy said:
Arguing with Zappa is like trying to teach a hamster to play the banjo.

Amusing, but ultimately pointless, and a waste of time.



Thanks for taking my side.  :toast:

I actually enjoy debating zappa; he's a better debater than most conservatives.  Although you're right; he'll never admit defeat no matter how deep he's dug himself.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14387456 - 05/02/11 08:44 AM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Strangely enough you think nobody changes their behavior because of the tax code.  What a monumental piece of ignorance.  They will structure their income to reflect that.  See:  History.



Your "History" link is broken.  :wink:  Please show me some evidence, just like I've shown graphical evidence of the opposite.




It wasn't a link.  But this is:
http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes
Quote:





Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You have to be abysmally ignorant to believe people will do the same thing when the penalty is much higher.  Abysmal.



I can tell when you've lost an argument.  It's when you stop providing any facts and switch to name calling.  :lol:




So wait, are you going to tell me that you don't believe people alter their investment and work activity in response to different tax structures?:facepalm:


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Offlined33p
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: jimbotron]
    #14389941 - 05/02/11 05:14 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
Austerity: If it worked for Hoover*, it'll work for us!

*May not have worked for Hoover.




God damn, the myth that Hoover implemented austerity just won't die.

FYI, federal spending increased under Hoover and the Fed lowered the discount rate. Roosevelt even ran on a platform accusing Hoover of being a spendthrift.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: d33p]
    #14389982 - 05/02/11 05:23 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

jimbotron said:
Austerity: If it worked for Hoover*, it'll work for us!

*May not have worked for Hoover.




God damn, the myth that Hoover implemented austerity just won't die.

FYI, federal spending increased under Hoover and the Fed lowered the discount rate. Roosevelt even ran on a platform accusing Hoover of being a spendthrift.



:rofl2::thumbup:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14391872 - 05/02/11 10:35 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Please show me some evidence, just like I've shown graphical evidence of the opposite.




http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes



FAIL.  Refuted here.


Quote:

zappaisgod said:
So wait, are you going to tell me that you don't believe people alter their investment and work activity in response to different tax structures?:facepalm:



People will ALWAYS modify their behavior to avoid taxes, not just when their tax rate goes above 35%.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineJT
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14392997 - 05/03/11 05:43 AM (13 years, 19 days ago)

You're arguing that taking more than a third of what someone makes is not enough dude. Come on.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: JT]
    #14393239 - 05/03/11 07:37 AM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

JT said:
You're arguing that taking more than a third of what someone makes is not enough dude. Come on.




Actually they already take more than half of the last dollar for top earners in NY.  35% or 38% is just federal income tax.  Then there is FICA, which varies if you go over a certain amount but is an additional 15% up to that amount and in NY the top tax rate is almost 8%.  Then there's sales taxes, property taxes, gas taxes, utility taxes.  It never fucking ends.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14393300 - 05/03/11 07:54 AM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Please show me some evidence, just like I've shown graphical evidence of the opposite.




http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes



FAIL.  Refuted here.


Quote:

zappaisgod said:
So wait, are you going to tell me that you don't believe people alter their investment and work activity in response to different tax structures?:facepalm:



People will ALWAYS modify their behavior to avoid taxes, not just when their tax rate goes above 35%.




Yes, they do.  When the rates go up they have less incentive to work.  Why try when your last dollar is taxed into oblivion?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14396333 - 05/03/11 07:39 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
When the rates go up they have less incentive to work.  Why try when your last dollar is taxed into oblivion?



Extra money taxed at 40% beats no extra money.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14399335 - 05/04/11 10:49 AM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
When the rates go up they have less incentive to work.  Why try when your last dollar is taxed into oblivion?



Extra money taxed at 40% beats no extra money.



But it isn't.  Right now my last dollar is taxed at around 60%.  RIGHT NOW!  38 plus 15 plus 8


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14399433 - 05/04/11 11:14 AM (13 years, 18 days ago)

> Right now my last dollar is taxed at around 60%.  RIGHT NOW!  38 plus 15 plus 8

Can you imagine the bitching and moaning that would come from the liberals if they lost $1800 out of their $3000 monthly paycheck, giving them a take home of only $1200?


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14401796 - 05/04/11 08:06 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
When the rates go up they have less incentive to work.  Why try when your last dollar is taxed into oblivion?



Extra money taxed at 40% beats no extra money.



But it isn't.  Right now my last dollar is taxed at around 60%.  RIGHT NOW!  38 plus 15 plus 8




Don't you hate dem IRS terrorists?

Using violence and threats of violence to make you pay for their political ends?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Seuss]
    #14401908 - 05/04/11 08:29 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Can you imagine the bitching and moaning that would come from the liberals if they lost $1800 out of their $3000 monthly paycheck, giving them a take home of only $1200?



Not sure what you mean.  The only people bitching and moaning about high taxes are conservatives.  Liberals understand that you need to pay taxes to fund education, defense, healthcare, freeways...


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14402088 - 05/04/11 08:58 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

And we could get it all done for less if the government managed our money better. There's a time when you need to say enough is enough. Can't just write them a blank check and say take whatever you need.

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14403669 - 05/05/11 04:36 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

> Liberals understand that you need to pay taxes to fund education, defense, healthcare, freeways...

The conservatives aren't bitching about high taxes for defense or freeways... handouts for entitlements such as education and healthcare are another matter.  I probably should have used the word 'poor' rather than 'liberal' as it better reflects the point I was making; it doesn't matter what political philosophy you follow, if they take 60% of your income, you are probably going to bitch about it.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14404941 - 05/05/11 11:59 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Can you imagine the bitching and moaning that would come from the liberals if they lost $1800 out of their $3000 monthly paycheck, giving them a take home of only $1200?



Not sure what you mean.  The only people bitching and moaning about high taxes are conservatives.  Liberals understand that you need to pay taxes to fund education, defense, healthcare, freeways...



The people bitching and moaning about high taxes are the people who are sick of paying them while bums skate free.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14405021 - 05/05/11 12:18 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Not sure what you mean.  The only people bitching and moaning about high taxes are conservatives.  Liberals understand that you need to pay taxes to fund education, defense, healthcare, freeways...




You need taxes to pay for other people's healthcare??? I don't quite follow you here.

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: dshow]
    #14405690 - 05/05/11 02:50 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

dshow said:
Quote:

Not sure what you mean.  The only people bitching and moaning about high taxes are conservatives.  Liberals understand that you need to pay taxes to fund education, defense, healthcare, freeways...




You need taxes to pay for other people's healthcare??? I don't quite follow you here.




Falcon91Wolvrn03 made that claim, not zappaisgod.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Seuss]
    #14406695 - 05/05/11 06:34 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Yea i know. Oh did i make it look the other way? my bad.

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: dshow]
    #14408429 - 05/06/11 01:50 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

i think it all stems from how lazy America has gotten. Every one wants everything, but no one wants to work for it.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: collie man]
    #14408490 - 05/06/11 02:15 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

Well yea obvious. I agree.

I just consider it pathetic that some people still believe there should be large safety nets. It doesn't work. It is a failed idea. just like government jobs. You cant support so many with the public diminishing .

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: collie man]
    #14408635 - 05/06/11 05:08 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

> i think it all stems from how lazy America has gotten. Every one wants everything, but no one wants to work for it.

You are half right... the younger generations have been taught by their baby boomer parents that they are oh so special, and that they deserve everything that they want, and that they should get it all without having to work for any of it.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Seuss]
    #14409064 - 05/06/11 08:36 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

Strange, I agree with Zappa as well as RR on this one. There is no doubt in any ones mind that the actual unemployment numbers are far higher than what is currently stated. You think it is bad where you reside, try our state where many counties have a stated, not actual unemployment rate of 30-40%. RR was correct in when he mentioned all the engineers that work at walmart. I can count at least 8 or 9 people off the top of my head that have an bachelors degree at the very least, and are working for minimum wage at grocery stores. I also know of many with grad degrees that consider themselves lucky that they are making 35-40 grand max a year. People from around the nation just can't seem to wrap their minds around what it is like for many when there are just fucking zero opportunities.

I can also name many that were prior business owners each hiring many employees, and they too had to sell all their business assets at a loss and take a job at walmart.

Another statistic which is never quoted, yet I believe the terminology currently used is something along the lines of employee reallocation, meaning when one made a livable wage, lost their job then took another at a place of employment making perhaps half of what their prior salary was. Yes they are employed but they are on the verge of bankruptcy, have no benefits, no healthcare, etc. All these people WANT to work, they don't want handouts, they spent years in college spending tens of thousands of dollars to get their education, and I can guarantee you the last thing they want to do now is sit on their asses collecting welfare. They didn't sacrifice for years, proactively gaining employable skills at great personal cost so they could sit around prostrate.

Another greatly skewed statistic thrown about by the gov. is the consumer price index, it's a complete joke. It's ridiculous that two of the main expenditures of the avg. american, food and energy costs are not calculated in the CPI. to gauge inflation rates. I just paid $4.31 a gallon for regular unleaded. For some reason where the unemployment rates are the highest, so are the costs for energy. It may not seem like much but just the cost of gas has a major impact on the personal finances of many here. Not only are they down, but they're getting kicked in the teeth while they are down. The gov. doesn't seem to think that energy costs seem to matter when calculating the CPI. I would love to be able to use their "fuzzy logic" when calculating statistics.
Of course both politicians, and the stock market love the artificially low inflation rates, the people actually paying the real prices, not so much.

Hey everyone unemployed numbers are actually extremely low, just don't calculate the people that are not currently working. The consensus states that people absolutely love extended stays in the hospital, that is once you discount both the pain and suffering, as well as the financial burden.

The latest stats concluded that in the past few years the average Americans net worth has decreased by 25%, that alone should prove to people that things are not getting better, at least not for the average american. Of course corporate profits are up.

As for how are the politicians solving the issue? Well, our prior governor was completely worthless, as a matter of fact when leaving she stated that we had just experienced a "decade from hell", and this from a woman claiming she would increase jobs and prosperity in our state. So now we have a new worthless jackass in office, this time a repub. He ran on the typical repub. platform that the problem is not that Americans are being taxed too little, but spending is too great. He also did the obligatory I will bring prosperity to this state, the great turnaround bs., etc.

So what is this economic geniuses plan? First he cut business taxes by 1.8 billion dollars. But how will he recoup this lost revenue you may ask? Easy you just INCREASE TAXES on retirees by 1.8 billion. The retirees get to pay for the tax breaks given to large corporations. Sounds fair to me, if you are a huge corporation that could never possibly afford to pay taxes, not so much if you are a retiree living on a fixed income. Now the gov. has recently stated that he would like to welcome more immigrants to our state. Pure fucking genius! In a state with the highest unemployment rates, tens of thousands unable to find work, just bring in more immigrants. I'm sure that will solve the problem.

In essence what our governor has stated is that if you can't afford to send your business to mexico, fear not, we will bring it to you. We will have the elderly pay for your taxes, and bring in low cost immigrant labor, see people of Michigan, I'm helping you out. More workers, competing for what extremely few jobs we have. On top of that we get to pay for the associated costs with an increase in the immigrant population, namely higher rates of crime, as well as a new huge burden on the educational system when the immigrants bring in their non English speaking offspring to be schooled. Don't worry he also made cuts to the educational budget, more pure genius.

As much as I hated the last dem. governor the repubs seem to have a penchant for shooting people in the kneecaps, then bitching later on that everyone is limping. I will agree with Zappa though that it's time to leave this shithole of a state on a consistent downward spiral. The only problem being that many that would like to do so have a financial liability on their houses that exceeds it's worth. They are financial prisoners to their own property, and it is not possible to leave.

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Therian]
    #14415697 - 05/07/11 03:08 PM (13 years, 15 days ago)

destroy the state that way we dont have to worry about it anymore

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Therian]
    #14433075 - 05/11/11 01:39 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Good post, Therian.  :congrats:


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14434310 - 05/11/11 10:47 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Do you guys even nkow what you're arguing about anymore?  lololol.

Wasn't this thread about things getting better?  Lets talk about how current economic indicators are reading, not about whether taxes to pay for people's healthcare make sense

:kingtard:

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14438246 - 05/12/11 01:12 AM (13 years, 10 days ago)

I'll agree with the OP that things aren't getting much better.  But the statement in the original post "The socialists are driving this bus off a cliff of government spending and business destruction." shows a lack of understanding of economics.  Deficit spending is necessary to pull a country out of recession.  It should be obvious when you spend more than you take in, that helps the economy (in the short term - obviously the loans need to be paid back later).  No one proved this point better empiracally than Ronald Reagan.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14438672 - 05/12/11 04:55 AM (13 years, 10 days ago)

> Deficit spending is necessary to pull a country out of recession.

Deficit spending is most certainly NOT necessary to pull a country out of recession.  In fact, deficit spending only spreads the pain of a recession to future generations and does nothing to fix the problem that caused the recession in the first place.  Cutting a trade deficit is something that can pull a country out of recession.  Going to war is something else that can pull a country out of recession (though like deficit spending, it doesn't fix the problem.)


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Seuss]
    #14441411 - 05/12/11 06:25 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Going to war is something else that can pull a country out of recession (though like deficit spending, it doesn't fix the problem.)



lol why do you think going to war helps get us out of recessions?  Beacuse the government starts running deficits to pay for wargoods, which puts everyone back to work, which puts people back in stores, which puts more people back to work.

but in the end, wars = deficits too.  :frown:



while yes, deficits to help get out of recession are sometimes helpful, they're only helpful if the fiscal policy is being implemented on productive goods and capital projects, not wasted on bridges to nowhere.  But with an average business cycle of ~7yr, huge deficits can't be used to push us out of every recession when our boom cycle still results in deficit spending.

Deficits in recession?  Sure, as long as you got surplus' in boom years.

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14443125 - 05/12/11 11:54 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

meams said:
lol why do you think going to war helps get us out of recessions?  Beacuse the government starts running deficits to pay for wargoods, which puts everyone back to work, which puts people back in stores, which puts more people back to work.

but in the end, wars = deficits too.  :frown:



while yes, deficits to help get out of recession are sometimes helpful, they're only helpful if the fiscal policy is being implemented on productive goods and capital projects, not wasted on bridges to nowhere.  But with an average business cycle of ~7yr, huge deficits can't be used to push us out of every recession when our boom cycle still results in deficit spending.

Deficits in recession?  Sure, as long as you got surplus' in boom years.



Agreed.  :toast:


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #14443846 - 05/13/11 05:05 AM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Heffy said:
Arguing with Zappa is like trying to teach a hamster to play the banjo.

Amusing, but ultimately pointless, and a waste of time.



A waste of time for Zappa, perhaps.  He has repeatedly shown to have a far better understanding of the way things work & play out than 99% of the posters on here.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
When the rates go up they have less incentive to work.  Why try when your last dollar is taxed into oblivion?



Extra money taxed at 40% beats no extra money.



Not if my time isn't worth Wage - 40%.  And when that happens you are incentivizing people to operate below capacity, which keeps your country operating INSIDE their production possibilities frontier (lesson #1 in any econ class), which is clearly not good for growth, which in turn is not good for sales, which is not good for tax revenues (weird,'eh?)

See!  I'm at point A because if i work full time and make over $xx,xxx/yr I get taxed at higher levels.  Consequently, my country isn't getting as much butter or guns as it could have!



Its not even economics, its just common sense:  taxes disincenvitize work.  free money (social benefits) disincentivizes work (both right above & below the qualification level).  our government needs to incentivize work.  they need to incentivize the creation of work opportunities (make businesses want to hire).

Oddly enough, what causes these things?  tax breaks individuals and businesses.  Why are these always scolded?  Because they're typically horrible for our economy, which, over the years, has become overwhelmingly burdened with entitlements and other programmes that continually eat away at our ability to spend [or, conversely, to not collect revenues (i.e. lower taxes)].  Soon we will be like California, with a legislature who only has control over 10% of its revenues because the other 90% has already been earmarked for various social programmes people voted for without any thought to how the bill would be paid.









To be honest, I just hit that last period and couldn't really remember what my post was about.  so i'm just going to hit send :shrug:  wake 'n' bake, 'eh?

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14443940 - 05/13/11 06:13 AM (13 years, 9 days ago)

> lol why do you think going to war helps get us out of recessions?  Beacuse the government starts running deficits to pay for wargoods

Historically, war is funded by war bonds.  Regardless, the 'deficit spending' during war is much different than the socialist deficit spending I was comparing against.  For example, war also creates a market for war related goods.  After the war, new markets open up as war damage is repaired.  There are also spoils of war that come into play.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Seuss]
    #14444872 - 05/13/11 10:55 AM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Historically, war is funded by war bonds. 



lol in what way does a war bond operate differently from a normal T-bill?

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14448913 - 05/14/11 12:13 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

ok seriously what does this 14 trillion mean? this is scaring the shit out of me

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/13/us-usa-budget-default-idUSTRE74C4TW20110513


are there people smart enough to maintain a business without needing bank money forwarded to them? i know small businesses can. but can big businesses start relying on their own money? aren't they supposed to HAVE more of their own money to put back in their business since they make more money then anyone else?

am i the only person who thinks this bank loan needing shit is total bullshit? i mean cmon people are going to drown if they don't swim on their own. we don't need this government deficit crap anymore.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Seuss]
    #14448928 - 05/14/11 12:16 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> lol why do you think going to war helps get us out of recessions?  Beacuse the government starts running deficits to pay for wargoods

Historically, war is funded by war bonds.  Regardless, the 'deficit spending' during war is much different than the socialist deficit spending I was comparing against.  For example, war also creates a market for war related goods.  After the war, new markets open up as war damage is repaired.  There are also spoils of war that come into play.





hey, i don't mean to be an ass but.... ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?!!?!?!?

i mean, are you talking about world war 2, or the war in the middle east?

and if you are comparing this to world war 2, please let's not forget, a fighter jet in world war 2 didn't cost a billion dollars. i don't know what it cost, because they didn't have fighter JETS, or what the equivalent is. i know that back then, battle ships cost quite a bit, but not a billion. and they were only made in limited numbers as well.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: imachavel]
    #14449202 - 05/14/11 01:37 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
ok seriously what does this 14 trillion mean? this is scaring the shit out of me

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/13/us-usa-budget-default-idUSTRE74C4TW20110513




it means nothing.  congress will raise the debt ceiling.

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14453801 - 05/14/11 10:00 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

what is this 14 trillion debt cieling? i thought our debt was only 2.5 trillion? what is this 14 trillion?


another thing, does anyone ever feel like the government lies about not being able to pay all this back yet? think about it, there are what, 200 million people in the united states? is every one of them, every day spends $1, and the government taxes 7% of all sales, that means they should collect 14 million dollars a day. now I know that people spend WAY more than $1 a day, and given, that none the less that every dollar the government takes in it can't just use to get rid of the debt, doesn't it STILL seem like after all these years, that by NOW they should have just OBLITERATED this debt?

wtf. i keep feeling like the bullshit just keeps piling up and up and up and up. I have no idea HOW this works, but something doesn't seem right to me. anyone care to comment on this?


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: imachavel]
    #14454144 - 05/14/11 11:30 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:wtf. i keep feeling like the bullshit just keeps piling up and up and up and up. I have no idea HOW this works, but something doesn't seem right to me. anyone care to comment on this?



gl finding someone to explain how the world economy works.  it takes a while.  there is a difference between a deficit and a debt.  ill let u start with that.

the internet is yer friend.
readdddd

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14454948 - 05/15/11 05:50 AM (13 years, 7 days ago)

The current national debt is 14,318,124,020,417.00

The current population is 307,006,550

But you were close. :wink:



Also, there is no national sales tax.

In 2009 the federal budget was 3,100,000,000,000

That's 8,493,150,684.93 per day.

Yup. 8.5 billion per day. 28 dollars per person per day.

However, they only took in 2,700,000,000,000

That's 7,397,260,273.97 per day.


Each day they spent 1,095,890,410.96 more than they took in.

Yup. Every day they spent 1.1 billion per day more than they took in.




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (05/15/11 06:10 AM)

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14455206 - 05/15/11 08:04 AM (13 years, 7 days ago)

I'd be interested to know those specicic differentials in normal years.  2009 was like the keynesian field day of happiness

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14455924 - 05/15/11 12:10 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

meams said:
I'd be interested to know those specicic differentials in normal years.  2009 was like the keynesian field day of happiness




Look here. Use a calculator.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14456192 - 05/15/11 01:13 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
The current national debt is 14,318,124,020,417.00

The current population is 307,006,550

But you were close. :wink:



Also, there is no national sales tax.

In 2009 the federal budget was 3,100,000,000,000

That's 8,493,150,684.93 per day.

Yup. 8.5 billion per day. 28 dollars per person per day.

However, they only took in 2,700,000,000,000

That's 7,397,260,273.97 per day.


Each day they spent 1,095,890,410.96 more than they took in.

Yup. Every day they spent 1.1 billion per day more than they took in.








ok, this is explaining a lot. but i'm still not understanding, what evens it out, why did a billion a day have to be spent? and what evens it back out to normal so that everything is spent evenly, and the debt is obliterated. and deficit is even or whatever?


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14456474 - 05/15/11 02:14 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Extra money taxed at 40% beats no extra money.



Not if my time isn't worth Wage - 40%...



That's one HUGE "if", which hardly applies here for many reasons:

1.  You're already getting taxed at 35% on everything; so you're really just weighing the extra 5%, not the entire 40%.

2.  It has been empirically shown that the Laffer curve peaks well above the 60% tax rate, which is the point at which people start to think their think the extra time/effort isn't worth it.

3.  You fail to take into consideration that salaries are exponential in the current business environment.  That is, the higher you advance, the more your pay raise is.  If you advance to director or vice president, you might get a 20% or more increase in salary, rather than the usual 5%-10% promotion increase.  But you'd only have to pay an extra 5% in taxes on that huge pay raise, making it well worth it for almost everyone.

Quote:

meams said:
See!  I'm at point A because if i work full time and make over $xx,xxx/yr I get taxed at higher levels.  Consequently, my country isn't getting as much butter or guns as it could have!






I've never seen taxation used as a reason for inefficiency (although I acknowledge it could be a factor at extremely high tax rates beyond what's being considered today).  Reasons are usually poor management, underutilization of equipment and resources, unemployment, etc.

Quote:

meams said:
lol in what way does a war bond operate differently from a normal T-bill?



Exactly.  :thumbup:  Except money spent on war disappears when a bomb explodes, but money spent on schools and bridges provides value for generations to come.  :smile:


--------------------
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14456505 - 05/15/11 02:22 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

I am currently paying around 60% on my last dollar.  This disgusting condition kicks in at around a ridiculously low $250,000.

The money doesn't disappear when the bomb explodes, the bomb does.  The money paid to the worker who made the bomb lives on in taxes wasted on bums and goods and services that are purchased by the bombmaker which are also taxed and wasted on bums and so on and so forth ad nauseum.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14456622 - 05/15/11 02:43 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
ridiculously low $250,000.



:rofl2:

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The money doesn't disappear when the bomb explodes, the bomb does.  The money paid to the worker who made the bomb lives on in taxes wasted on bums and goods and services that are purchased by the bombmaker which are also taxed and wasted on bums and so on and so forth ad nauseum.



The same is also true when you build schools and roads, except the schools and roads don't disappear.


--------------------
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14456732 - 05/15/11 02:58 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
ridiculously low $250,000.



:rofl2:




I suppose you think that is wealthy.  Sadly it is not even close.  Not here.  Not with tuition to pay with after tax dollars.
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The money doesn't disappear when the bomb explodes, the bomb does.  The money paid to the worker who made the bomb lives on in taxes wasted on bums and goods and services that are purchased by the bombmaker which are also taxed and wasted on bums and so on and so forth ad nauseum.



The same is also true when you build schools and roads, except the schools and roads don't disappear.




Those things, along with the military and police and border functions are legitimate functions of government.  I question whether roads and schools are a legitimate function of the federal government and in fact I believe most of those expenses are borne at the state and local level.  Except for the Interstate system they should be entirely borne at the state and local level.  Schools would probably best be left to private entities.  The government does a shitty job.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: imachavel]
    #14456880 - 05/15/11 03:19 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
what evens it out




Nothing. Hence the deficit.


Quote:

why did a billion a day have to be spent?




It didn't, but our elected officials want to:
a. Buy votes from societal leeches.
b. Appear to be doing something, anything.
c. Ensure governmental control over the states and the people.
d. Rob Peter to pay Paul.


Quote:

and what evens it back out to normal so that everything is spent evenly, and the debt is obliterated. and deficit is even or whatever?




Throw the cocksuckers out of office.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14458127 - 05/15/11 06:48 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I suppose you think that is wealthy.  Sadly it is not even close.  Not here.  Not with tuition to pay with after tax dollars.




Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Schools would probably best be left to private entities.




So lets see...
$250,000/yr barely covers private tuition.
Schools should be privatized.
:facepalm:


--------------------
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14458496 - 05/15/11 07:36 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I suppose you think that is wealthy.  Sadly it is not even close.  Not here.  Not with tuition to pay with after tax dollars.




Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Schools would probably best be left to private entities.




So lets see...
$250,000/yr barely covers private tuition.
Schools should be privatized.
:facepalm:



Yep.  Every year my property taxes put at least 3 kids through primary and secondary school.  Of course, I haven't had any fucking kids in primary or secondary school for quite some time.  So, yeah, I'd like to get off that hook, at least.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14459326 - 05/15/11 09:47 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I suppose you think that is wealthy.  Sadly it is not even close.  Not here.  Not with tuition to pay with after tax dollars.




Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Schools would probably best be left to private entities.




So lets see...
$250,000/yr barely covers private tuition.
Schools should be privatized.
:facepalm:



Yep.  Every year my property taxes put at least 3 kids through primary and secondary school.  Of course, I haven't had any fucking kids in primary or secondary school for quite some time.  So, yeah, I'd like to get off that hook, at least.





you're all heart man :facepalm:


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14459353 - 05/15/11 09:51 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
what evens it out




Nothing. Hence the deficit.


Quote:

why did a billion a day have to be spent?




It didn't, but our elected officials want to:
a. Buy votes from societal leeches.
b. Appear to be doing something, anything.
c. Ensure governmental control over the states and the people.
d. Rob Peter to pay Paul.


Quote:

and what evens it back out to normal so that everything is spent evenly, and the debt is obliterated. and deficit is even or whatever?




Throw the cocksuckers out of office.





ok, throw the bastards out of office. well, we got rid of bush, even though some people think he didn't add to this shit we're in :rolleyes:






























let me reiterate in case people don't know what i'm getting at :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :lol:


anyway, so now we get rid of the obama administration. but who is to say once we impeach them, that whoever takes their place won't be just as bad? would hillary have been a good president?

although i'm almost thinking it WILL be hillary or somebody like her next. i mean we voted in a black president, when people said we couldn't do that. now we have to vote in a women president. or we could skip it, a lot of countries have queens, nothing unheard of.

i don't know, i know you are right, but who do we replace these 'fuck ups' with?


--------------------
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14459766 - 05/15/11 11:05 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Schools would probably best be left to private entities.




You are not worthy of the Zappa name ! :dudewtf:
:Trollface:

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Vsnares.Zappa]
    #14460463 - 05/16/11 02:22 AM (13 years, 6 days ago)

indeed


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: imachavel]
    #14461265 - 05/16/11 09:48 AM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Are you two children really going to try to argue that Frank Zappa thought public education was good?

:rofl2:


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: imachavel]
    #14461555 - 05/16/11 11:20 AM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
ok, throw the bastards out of office. well, we got rid of bush, even though some people think he didn't add to this shit we're in :rolleyes:




Yeah, bush!  He was dumb!  He took us to war!  We dont like him!  Whoopdi doo.  Bush's tax policies probably helped spur our spending glut in the early 2000s, but bush did not make us buy houses that we couldn't aford (blame fanny, freddy, and overzealous bankers taking advantage of perpetually-rising housing values).  Also, blame us, duh. 

And additionally, dont blame the resulting government deficits on Obama, or on bush, or on democrats or republicans.  Fact of the matter is, a lot lot lot of federal monies had to be spent to keep us from entering uncomfortably difficult times (what do you do when your neighbor and best friend is losing their house and starving, but you can barely afford your rent?  let them stay with you?  but you dotn have room?  waht if its not your neighbor, but your brother? or mom? etc. etc.  )

Now, obvoiusly if a republican was in office, government money wouldv'e been spent some different way.  namely, they would've probaly cut the shit out of taxes and kept spending more-or-less constant.  note:  this results in the same deficit of monies as if they kept taxes steady and boosted the fuck out of spending.

The result is:  government had to spent a lot to heal the wounds we caused ourselves when we averaged over 750B/yr in mortgage credit.

I stole this table from the FRB's Flow of Funds release, but it shows the picture well enough:


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14464377 - 05/16/11 08:10 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

What? nobodoy wants to talk when logical things are said?  We only wait for nonsense to get spouted so we can wittily point out its incrediulocity? (made up word, i think!)

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14465086 - 05/16/11 09:56 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

meams said:
What? nobodoy wants to talk when logical things are said?  We only wait for nonsense to get spouted so we can wittily point out its incrediulocity? (made up word, i think!)



I'm in agreement with your last post.  What's left to say?  :shrug:

I wait for nonsense so I can point out its incrediulocity.  :naughty:


--------------------
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14465318 - 05/16/11 10:43 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm in agreement with your last post.  What's left to say?  :shrug:




I realized after my last post that this is my fatal flaw:  make sense and kill threads, or post bullshit and keep the shroomery alive?

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes] * 1
    #14466596 - 05/17/11 07:03 AM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm in agreement with your last post.  What's left to say?  :shrug:




I realized after my last post that this is my fatal flaw:  make sense and kill threads, or post bullshit and keep the shroomery alive?




Or say what you think, back it up and don't worry about what others do or do not say.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14466764 - 05/17/11 07:55 AM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Or say what you think, back it up and don't worry about what others do or do not say.



Well, considering the presence of others is paramount to my continued participation in a non-scitzophrenic conversation....

.....im a bit worried if anyone ever responds after I make a valid point :shrug:

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14546765 - 06/01/11 04:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Schizoconomy lives:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43239586

Quote:

"It seems that almost every bit of data about the health of the US economy has disappointed expectations recently," said Riddell, in a note sent to CNBC on Wednesday.

"US house prices have fallen by more than 5 percent year on year, pending home sales have collapsed and existing home sales disappointed, the trend of improving jobless claims has arrested, first quarter GDP wasn’t revised upwards by the 0.4 percent forecast, durables goods orders shrank, manufacturing surveys from Philadelphia Fed, Richmond Fed and Chicago Fed were all very disappointing."

"And that’s just in the last week and a bit," said Riddell.

Pointing to the dramatic turnaround in the Citigroup "Economic Surprise Index" for the United States, Riddell said the tumble in a matter of months to negative from positive is almost as bad as the situation before the collapse of Lehman Brothers in 2008.

"The correlation between the economic surprise index and Treasury yields is very close, so the lesson is that whatever your long term macro views are regarding hyper inflation vs. deflation or the risk of the US defaulting, the reality is that if you want to have a view about government bond prices, the best thing you can do is look at the economic data to see what’s actually going on," said Riddell.




You can accept his interpretation or not but you cannot dispute the facts.  Unless we toss out the liberal swine in 2012 we will get limited growth from such a bottomed out position that it will be like the view from an outhouse pit.  Shit will just keep falling.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14553930 - 06/03/11 01:17 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
...you cannot dispute the facts.  Unless we toss out the liberal swine in 2012 we will get limited growth from such a bottomed out position that it will be like the view from an outhouse pit.  Shit will just keep falling.



What makes you think a Republican President would give the country more growth?  The only people they'll help are the rich, at the expense of everyone else.


--------------------
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14554519 - 06/03/11 07:37 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
...you cannot dispute the facts.  Unless we toss out the liberal swine in 2012 we will get limited growth from such a bottomed out position that it will be like the view from an outhouse pit.  Shit will just keep falling.



What makes you think a Republican President would give the country more growth?  The only people they'll help are the rich, at the expense of everyone else.



Who the fuck do you think drives the economy?  Hint, it isn't minimum wage morons.

I don't expect the Republicans to help the rich.  I expect them to stop fucking the rich in the ass with giant redwood dildoes and telling the world what scum they are for being successful.  You and your ilk just don't seem to understand that succeeding isn't a criminal activity that should be prosecuted with confiscatory taxation (fines?).  Why might that be?


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14558624 - 06/04/11 01:37 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Who the fuck do you think drives the economy?  Hint, it isn't minimum wage morons.



So you think that shrinking our police force, paying teachers less, and cancelling infrastructure jobs so we can give tax cuts to the rich somehow improves our economy?  :jawdrop:

That's what's referred to as "voodoo" economics.


--------------------
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14559070 - 06/04/11 07:26 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

> So you think that shrinking our police force, paying teachers less, and cancelling infrastructure jobs so we can give tax cuts to the rich somehow improves our economy? 

Why are you making shit up?  Can you not defend your liberal viewpoint without resorting to fantasy?  Rather than cry that you aren't making shit up, please show me where Zappa advocated that state governments should  be prohibited from managing their own police force, education budgets, or infrastructure. 

> That's what's referred to as "voodoo" economics.

No, not even close.  Voodoo economics was a term used to describe economic policies promoted by Ronald Reagan.  The general idea is that if the rich are doing good, then everybody is doing good and if the rich are doing poor, then everybody is doing poor.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14559743 - 06/04/11 11:47 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Who the fuck do you think drives the economy?  Hint, it isn't minimum wage morons.



So you think that shrinking our police force, paying teachers less, and cancelling infrastructure jobs so we can give tax cuts to the rich somehow improves our economy?  :jawdrop:

That's what's referred to as "voodoo" economics.




Putting everybody on the government payroll and paying them exorbitant wages is "voodoo economics".  All three things you mentioned are local government responsibilities, not federal.  Some police forces are overstaffed and overpaid (see Nassau County NY).  Some teachers are overstaffed and overpaid (See Mamaroneck NY).  Government construction projects are invariably a disgraceful waste of money, overburdened with red tape, fatuous regulation and cronyism.  By which I mean they are make-work projects to funnel money to favored individuals.  Washington politicians are the last people who should be deciding local construction issues (see earmarks).

The rich already pay a disgustingly high percentage of the taxes in this country.  But that has nothing to do with my point.  They spend money.  Their spending drives the economy.  Prosperity is a growth engine.  Even idiots can see that.  Bums don't want to acknowledge it because they won't be able to stay bums on my dime.  Money taken from wealthy people in taxation and given to shiftless layabouts or otherwise wasted on hangers-on and supplicants is money taken out of honest circulation with no chance of return on investment.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Seuss]
    #14560440 - 06/04/11 02:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So you think that shrinking our police force, paying teachers less, and cancelling infrastructure jobs so we can give tax cuts to the rich somehow improves our economy?



Why are you making shit up?  Can you not defend your liberal viewpoint without resorting to fantasy?



Do you believe the above are not being cut as a result of a shortage of Gov't revenue?
 
Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That's what's referred to as "voodoo" economics.



No, not even close.  Voodoo economics was a term used to describe economic policies promoted by Ronald Reagan.  The general idea is that if the rich are doing good, then everybody is doing good and if the rich are doing poor, then everybody is doing poor.



Not exactly.  Voodoo economics says that if you give more to the rich, it will "trickle down" to the poor.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14560455 - 06/04/11 02:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Not exactly.  Voodoo economics says that if you give more to the rich, it will "trickle down" to the poor.



I mean, you can't exactly argue that.  Rich people have money, spend money, spur economic activity, which spurs other economic activity, etc, etc.

But on a national scale, I don't think the "Trickle" is substantial enough or quick enough to be considered effective stimulus.


so i'm disagreeing with you on a micro scale, and agreeing with you on a macro scale.

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14560511 - 06/04/11 03:07 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Some police forces are overstaffed and overpaid (see Nassau County NY).  Some teachers are overstaffed and overpaid (See Mamaroneck NY).  Government construction projects are invariably a disgraceful waste of money, overburdened with red tape, fatuous regulation and cronyism.  By which I mean they are make-work projects to funnel money to favored individuals.  Washington politicians are the last people who should be deciding local construction issues (see earmarks).



Cutting taxes for the rich doesn't solve any of the above.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
They spend money.  Their spending drives the economy.  Prosperity is a growth engine.  Even idiots can see that.



And the middle class doesn't spend money?  If 20 middle class Americans spend $100,000, that's just as good as one rich person spending $100,000.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Money taken from wealthy people in taxation and given to shiftless layabouts or otherwise wasted on hangers-on and supplicants is money taken out of honest circulation with no chance of return on investment.



Are you saying money given to teachers, police officers, and infrastructure projects has no return on investment?


--------------------
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14560523 - 06/04/11 03:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
They spend money.  Their spending drives the economy.  Prosperity is a growth engine.  Even idiots can see that.



And the middle class doesn't spend money?  If 20 middle class Americans spend $100,000, that's just as good as one rich person spending $100,000.




Guess who employs those 20 middle class americans?  The 1 rich person who owns their company.  When taxes for that 1 person get cut, he expands his business, hires 3 more middle class people, and those 3 more go and spend monies....


... get it?

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14560547 - 06/04/11 03:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Not exactly.  Voodoo economics says that if you give more to the rich, it will "trickle down" to the poor.



I mean, you can't exactly argue that.  Rich people have money, spend money, spur economic activity, which spurs other economic activity, etc, etc.

But on a national scale, I don't think the "Trickle" is substantial enough or quick enough to be considered effective stimulus.


so i'm disagreeing with you on a micro scale, and agreeing with you on a macro scale.



Agreed.  If you let the rich keep more money then yes, that can help the ecomomy on a macro level.  If instead you let the middle class keep more money, that will also help the economy on a macro level, but allows more for the middle class in the process.


--------------------
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14560580 - 06/04/11 03:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Guess who employs those 20 middle class americans?  The 1 rich person who owns their company.  When taxes for that 1 person get cut, he expands his business, hires 3 more middle class people, and those 3 more go and spend monies....


... get it?



No, I don't get it.  Business owners don't expand their business becaues they have more money.  They expand their business because of increased demand.  If you let the rich keep more at the expense of the middle class, there is no net gain to further stimulate business.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14560738 - 06/04/11 04:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

fine,  remove the word "expands his business" and replace it with "invests in his business, whether through renovations (which hire contractors), new capital equipment (which gives jobs to product manufacturers), or additional employee hires.



so yeah.  get it?

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes] * 2
    #14560814 - 06/04/11 04:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
fine,  remove the word "expands his business" and replace it with "invests in his business, whether through renovations (which hire contractors), new capital equipment (which gives jobs to product manufacturers), or additional employee hires.



so yeah.  get it?



No, I still don't get it.  If I'm a company with $1 million in profit, I can either pocket the money and pay taxes on it, or I can reinvest it in my business through renovations, capital equipment, or new employees, which are all deductible business expenses, so I wouldn't pay ANY taxes on that money.  I might even argue that if the tax rate was lower, I'd be more likely to pocket the money for myself rather than reinvest it in the business.


--------------------
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14561052 - 06/04/11 05:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

good job.  you got me.

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14561278 - 06/04/11 06:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Some police forces are overstaffed and overpaid (see Nassau County NY).  Some teachers are overstaffed and overpaid (See Mamaroneck NY).  Government construction projects are invariably a disgraceful waste of money, overburdened with red tape, fatuous regulation and cronyism.  By which I mean they are make-work projects to funnel money to favored individuals.  Washington politicians are the last people who should be deciding local construction issues (see earmarks).



Cutting taxes for the rich doesn't solve any of the above.




Neither does raising taxes on the rich.  They already pay a disgustingly disproportionate amount of taxes.  Even those who aren't really rich.
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
They spend money.  Their spending drives the economy.  Prosperity is a growth engine.  Even idiots can see that.



And the middle class doesn't spend money?  If 20 middle class Americans spend $100,000, that's just as good as one rich person spending $100,000.




LOL WUT? 
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Money taken from wealthy people in taxation and given to shiftless layabouts or otherwise wasted on hangers-on and supplicants is money taken out of honest circulation with no chance of return on investment.



Are you saying money given to teachers, police officers, and infrastructure projects has no return on investment?



I think I was perfectly clear.  Some police are grossly overpaid and incompetent.  Some teachers are grossly overpaid and incompetent.  All government infrastructure projects are grossly inflated in cost and the incompetence increasing with more distance from the funding source.  Feel free to actually make an argument about any of those things. 

By the way I note that you aren't referring to investing your own money but money taken from others for your benefit.  That's all you ever talk about, in fact.


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14561314 - 06/04/11 06:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-26/carter-economic-stagnation-explained-at-30-000-feet.html

Quote:

The man in the aisle seat is trying to tell me why he refuses to hire anybody. His business is successful, he says, as the 737 cruises smoothly eastward. Demand for his product is up. But he still won’t hire.

“Why not?”

“Because I don’t know how much it will cost,” he explains. “How can I hire new workers today, when I don’t know how much they will cost me tomorrow?”

He’s referring not to wages, but to regulation: He has no way of telling what new rules will go into effect when. His business, although it covers several states, operates on low margins. He can’t afford to take the chance of losing what little profit there is to the next round of regulatory changes. And so he’s hiring nobody until he has some certainty about cost.




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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14561374 - 06/04/11 07:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

ding ding ding.

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14562707 - 06/04/11 11:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
good job.  you got me.



I'm not out to get anyone (in fact, I enjoy all your posts).  I'm just speaking up when I disagree with a point, as previously noted.  I credit you for understanding my last point and even more for saying so.  :toast:


--------------------
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #14563161 - 06/05/11 03:25 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Cutting taxes for the rich doesn't solve any of the above.



Neither does raising taxes on the rich.



Agreed.  So whether a handful of peoeple are being overpaid or not is irrelevant to this topic.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If 20 middle class Americans spend $100,000, that's just as good as one rich person spending $100,000.



LOL WUT? 



I'm saying the Gov't shouldn't take things from the middle class so they can afford a tax cut for the rich, because a tax cut of $100,000 for one person is no better for the economy than allowing 20 middle class people to have an extra $5,000 to spend.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I think I was perfectly clear.  Some police are grossly overpaid and incompetent.  Some teachers are grossly overpaid and incompetent.  All government infrastructure projects are grossly inflated in cost and the incompetence increasing with more distance from the funding source.  Feel free to actually make an argument about any of those things.



I'll make an argument about these things if you start a thread where it's relevant.  For the record, I do think a very small number of Gov't workers are overpaid.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
By the way I note that you aren't referring to investing your own money but money taken from others for your benefit.  That's all you ever talk about, in fact.



Taxes are collected for the benefit of an entire country.  They pay for roads, schools, police, libraries, etc.  This creates jobs, and gives the country essential services in return.  Should we lay workers off and cut essential services so we can give a tax cut to the rich?  That's personal opinion, but I think the benefit of keeping people employed and getting essential services outweighs tax cuts for the rich.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (06/05/11 03:42 AM)

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14563176 - 06/05/11 03:32 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And so he’s hiring nobody until he has some certainty about cost.



I agree there needs be some certainty around regulation costs.  I wished the article gave an example of what issue the guy was actually concerned about.  Usually, the Goverment gives business time to adjust before new rules go into effect.


--------------------
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14563397 - 06/05/11 06:46 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)



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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14563466 - 06/05/11 07:22 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm not out to get anyone (in fact, I enjoy all your posts).  I'm just speaking up when I disagree with a point, as previously noted.  I credit you for understanding my last point and even more for saying so.  :toast:



Oh, i know you're not out to get me.  But i oftentimes argue on here and rarely find myself in a situation where my train of logic has been stumped.  Since my analysis of most arguments takes place in lightening calculations, it only takes me a second to realize I don't have much of a rebuttal -- and consequently, the "good job".

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Should we lay workers off and cut essential services so we can give a tax cut to the rich?  That's personal opinion, but I think the benefit of keeping people employed and getting essential services outweighs tax cuts for the rich.



The way our government operates, giving tax cuts to the rich doesn't necessitate decreased government spending, or visa versa.  Whether or not they give a tax cut to the rich, government jobs are likely to continue to be cut down - since the bureaucracy is horribly overbloated, overpaid, and overprotected from being fired.

if you've EVER worked for ANY form of government, you'd know what i'm talking about.  I've worked for local government and been close friends with those at the federal level.  THe inefficiencies are widespread and disgusting.

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14563807 - 06/05/11 09:25 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-26/carter-economic-stagnation-explained-at-30-000-feet.html

Quote:

The man in the aisle seat is trying to tell me why he refuses to hire anybody. His business is successful, he says, as the 737 cruises smoothly eastward. Demand for his product is up. But he still won’t hire.

“Why not?”

“Because I don’t know how much it will cost,” he explains. “How can I hire new workers today, when I don’t know how much they will cost me tomorrow?”

He’s referring not to wages, but to regulation: He has no way of telling what new rules will go into effect when. His business, although it covers several states, operates on low margins. He can’t afford to take the chance of losing what little profit there is to the next round of regulatory changes. And so he’s hiring nobody until he has some certainty about cost.







:lol:  What a complete line of shit.

His crystal ball is broken so he won't hire, even though his business is 'successful'?  Here's a news flash:  If one wishes to expand his business by producing more product, he's eventually going to have to hire more bodies to do so.  That's how it works.  To claim he's going to sit on his ass because he doesn't know what tomorrow will bring means he's an idiot, not a businessman.

Gotta love those "un-named guy in the isle seat on the plane said. . ." stories. It pains my heart in sympathy for those 'guy in the isle seat types' who wish to dump mercury and other toxins into our rivers and air if only the damn EPA would get out of the way, so they could hire more people. :facepalm:
RR


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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14563978 - 06/05/11 10:19 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
:lol:  What a complete line of shit.

His crystal ball is broken so he won't hire, even though his business is 'successful'?  Here's a news flash:  If one wishes to expand his business by producing more product, he's eventually going to have to hire more bodies to do so.  That's how it works.  To claim he's going to sit on his ass because he doesn't know what tomorrow will bring means he's an idiot, not a businessman.

Gotta love those "un-named guy in the isle seat on the plane said. . ." stories. It pains my heart in sympathy for those 'guy in the isle seat types' who wish to dump mercury and other toxins into our rivers and air if only the damn EPA would get out of the way, so they could hire more people. :facepalm:
RR



Sorry roger, but your response is as rediculous as you perceived zappa's to be.  Companies DO sit on their ass because of regulatory uncertainty.  Companies do not necessarily have to hire more people IN THE SHORT TERM to expan their business.  Productivity increases can be made with existing employees through investment in new capital equipment, or by altering the employee scheduling/workload/hours. 

Whether a boss decides to work his employees overtime vs hiring additional employees depends upon whether or not the employer can accurately assess the costs of both options.  We know what it costs to pay a worker overtime.  We do not know what it costs to hire an additional employee - since health care regulations (among others) are so up in the air at this point.

Additionally, i think its pretty apparent that his "guy in the isle" story is as weaksauce as your "businessman wants to dump mercury into our rivers" rant.

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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14566661 - 06/05/11 09:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
The way our government operates, giving tax cuts to the rich doesn't necessitate decreased government spending, or visa versa.



That's true, but if the Bush tax cuts for the rich stay in place, they'll be responsible for a large share of total debt, as shown here:



Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
:lol:  What a complete line of shit.

His crystal ball is broken so he won't hire, even though his business is 'successful'?  Here's a news flash:  If one wishes to expand his business by producing more product, he's eventually going to have to hire more bodies to do so.  That's how it works.  To claim he's going to sit on his ass because he doesn't know what tomorrow will bring means he's an idiot, not a businessman.

Gotta love those "un-named guy in the isle seat on the plane said. . ." stories. It pains my heart in sympathy for those 'guy in the isle seat types' who wish to dump mercury and other toxins into our rivers and air if only the damn EPA would get out of the way, so they could hire more people. :facepalm:
RR



Sorry roger, but your response is as rediculous as you perceived zappa's to be.  Companies DO sit on their ass because of regulatory uncertainty.  Companies do not necessarily have to hire more people IN THE SHORT TERM to expan their business.  Productivity increases can be made with existing employees through investment in new capital equipment, or by altering the employee scheduling/workload/hours. 

Whether a boss decides to work his employees overtime vs hiring additional employees depends upon whether or not the employer can accurately assess the costs of both options.  We know what it costs to pay a worker overtime.  We do not know what it costs to hire an additional employee - since health care regulations (among others) are so up in the air at this point.

Additionally, i think its pretty apparent that his "guy in the isle" story is as weaksauce as your "businessman wants to dump mercury into our rivers" rant.



My observation has been that the Government gives business plenty of warning when changes are coming.  In fact, the Government tends to be very slow with changes.  Here in California, we passed a law to ban foie gras in 2004, but it won't go into effect until 2012 so businesses have time to get ready.

Similarly, most of the new health care changes won't go into effect until 2015 or later, for the same reason.  So while I agree with zap's post in principle (as previously stated) that business needs time to react, I agree more with RogerRabbit in that the only type of regulatory change that won't give businesses sufficient warning is if the Government needs to pass emergency legislation to prevent toxins from entering our atmosphere in a certain way that hasn't yet been legislated, for example.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (06/05/11 09:43 PM)

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14566704 - 06/05/11 09:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

i see what you're saying.  and while regulatory uncertainty is certainly a factor, i think a lot of the hiring resistance these days is resulting from such turbulent commodity prices.  How shoudl I know waht my demand will be in 3mo if prices can be exponentially higher (or lower) than they are now? 

Lots of things goin crazy in the wordl.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14566711 - 06/05/11 09:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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