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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14559743 - 06/04/11 11:47 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Who the fuck do you think drives the economy?  Hint, it isn't minimum wage morons.



So you think that shrinking our police force, paying teachers less, and cancelling infrastructure jobs so we can give tax cuts to the rich somehow improves our economy?  :jawdrop:

That's what's referred to as "voodoo" economics.




Putting everybody on the government payroll and paying them exorbitant wages is "voodoo economics".  All three things you mentioned are local government responsibilities, not federal.  Some police forces are overstaffed and overpaid (see Nassau County NY).  Some teachers are overstaffed and overpaid (See Mamaroneck NY).  Government construction projects are invariably a disgraceful waste of money, overburdened with red tape, fatuous regulation and cronyism.  By which I mean they are make-work projects to funnel money to favored individuals.  Washington politicians are the last people who should be deciding local construction issues (see earmarks).

The rich already pay a disgustingly high percentage of the taxes in this country.  But that has nothing to do with my point.  They spend money.  Their spending drives the economy.  Prosperity is a growth engine.  Even idiots can see that.  Bums don't want to acknowledge it because they won't be able to stay bums on my dime.  Money taken from wealthy people in taxation and given to shiftless layabouts or otherwise wasted on hangers-on and supplicants is money taken out of honest circulation with no chance of return on investment.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Seuss]
    #14560440 - 06/04/11 02:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So you think that shrinking our police force, paying teachers less, and cancelling infrastructure jobs so we can give tax cuts to the rich somehow improves our economy?



Why are you making shit up?  Can you not defend your liberal viewpoint without resorting to fantasy?



Do you believe the above are not being cut as a result of a shortage of Gov't revenue?
 
Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That's what's referred to as "voodoo" economics.



No, not even close.  Voodoo economics was a term used to describe economic policies promoted by Ronald Reagan.  The general idea is that if the rich are doing good, then everybody is doing good and if the rich are doing poor, then everybody is doing poor.



Not exactly.  Voodoo economics says that if you give more to the rich, it will "trickle down" to the poor.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14560455 - 06/04/11 02:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Not exactly.  Voodoo economics says that if you give more to the rich, it will "trickle down" to the poor.



I mean, you can't exactly argue that.  Rich people have money, spend money, spur economic activity, which spurs other economic activity, etc, etc.

But on a national scale, I don't think the "Trickle" is substantial enough or quick enough to be considered effective stimulus.


so i'm disagreeing with you on a micro scale, and agreeing with you on a macro scale.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14560511 - 06/04/11 03:07 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Some police forces are overstaffed and overpaid (see Nassau County NY).  Some teachers are overstaffed and overpaid (See Mamaroneck NY).  Government construction projects are invariably a disgraceful waste of money, overburdened with red tape, fatuous regulation and cronyism.  By which I mean they are make-work projects to funnel money to favored individuals.  Washington politicians are the last people who should be deciding local construction issues (see earmarks).



Cutting taxes for the rich doesn't solve any of the above.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
They spend money.  Their spending drives the economy.  Prosperity is a growth engine.  Even idiots can see that.



And the middle class doesn't spend money?  If 20 middle class Americans spend $100,000, that's just as good as one rich person spending $100,000.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Money taken from wealthy people in taxation and given to shiftless layabouts or otherwise wasted on hangers-on and supplicants is money taken out of honest circulation with no chance of return on investment.



Are you saying money given to teachers, police officers, and infrastructure projects has no return on investment?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14560523 - 06/04/11 03:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
They spend money.  Their spending drives the economy.  Prosperity is a growth engine.  Even idiots can see that.



And the middle class doesn't spend money?  If 20 middle class Americans spend $100,000, that's just as good as one rich person spending $100,000.




Guess who employs those 20 middle class americans?  The 1 rich person who owns their company.  When taxes for that 1 person get cut, he expands his business, hires 3 more middle class people, and those 3 more go and spend monies....


... get it?

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14560547 - 06/04/11 03:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Not exactly.  Voodoo economics says that if you give more to the rich, it will "trickle down" to the poor.



I mean, you can't exactly argue that.  Rich people have money, spend money, spur economic activity, which spurs other economic activity, etc, etc.

But on a national scale, I don't think the "Trickle" is substantial enough or quick enough to be considered effective stimulus.


so i'm disagreeing with you on a micro scale, and agreeing with you on a macro scale.



Agreed.  If you let the rich keep more money then yes, that can help the ecomomy on a macro level.  If instead you let the middle class keep more money, that will also help the economy on a macro level, but allows more for the middle class in the process.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14560580 - 06/04/11 03:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Guess who employs those 20 middle class americans?  The 1 rich person who owns their company.  When taxes for that 1 person get cut, he expands his business, hires 3 more middle class people, and those 3 more go and spend monies....


... get it?



No, I don't get it.  Business owners don't expand their business becaues they have more money.  They expand their business because of increased demand.  If you let the rich keep more at the expense of the middle class, there is no net gain to further stimulate business.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14560738 - 06/04/11 04:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

fine,  remove the word "expands his business" and replace it with "invests in his business, whether through renovations (which hire contractors), new capital equipment (which gives jobs to product manufacturers), or additional employee hires.



so yeah.  get it?

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes] * 2
    #14560814 - 06/04/11 04:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
fine,  remove the word "expands his business" and replace it with "invests in his business, whether through renovations (which hire contractors), new capital equipment (which gives jobs to product manufacturers), or additional employee hires.



so yeah.  get it?



No, I still don't get it.  If I'm a company with $1 million in profit, I can either pocket the money and pay taxes on it, or I can reinvest it in my business through renovations, capital equipment, or new employees, which are all deductible business expenses, so I wouldn't pay ANY taxes on that money.  I might even argue that if the tax rate was lower, I'd be more likely to pocket the money for myself rather than reinvest it in the business.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14561052 - 06/04/11 05:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

good job.  you got me.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14561278 - 06/04/11 06:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Some police forces are overstaffed and overpaid (see Nassau County NY).  Some teachers are overstaffed and overpaid (See Mamaroneck NY).  Government construction projects are invariably a disgraceful waste of money, overburdened with red tape, fatuous regulation and cronyism.  By which I mean they are make-work projects to funnel money to favored individuals.  Washington politicians are the last people who should be deciding local construction issues (see earmarks).



Cutting taxes for the rich doesn't solve any of the above.




Neither does raising taxes on the rich.  They already pay a disgustingly disproportionate amount of taxes.  Even those who aren't really rich.
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
They spend money.  Their spending drives the economy.  Prosperity is a growth engine.  Even idiots can see that.



And the middle class doesn't spend money?  If 20 middle class Americans spend $100,000, that's just as good as one rich person spending $100,000.




LOL WUT? 
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Money taken from wealthy people in taxation and given to shiftless layabouts or otherwise wasted on hangers-on and supplicants is money taken out of honest circulation with no chance of return on investment.



Are you saying money given to teachers, police officers, and infrastructure projects has no return on investment?



I think I was perfectly clear.  Some police are grossly overpaid and incompetent.  Some teachers are grossly overpaid and incompetent.  All government infrastructure projects are grossly inflated in cost and the incompetence increasing with more distance from the funding source.  Feel free to actually make an argument about any of those things. 

By the way I note that you aren't referring to investing your own money but money taken from others for your benefit.  That's all you ever talk about, in fact.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14561314 - 06/04/11 06:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-26/carter-economic-stagnation-explained-at-30-000-feet.html

Quote:

The man in the aisle seat is trying to tell me why he refuses to hire anybody. His business is successful, he says, as the 737 cruises smoothly eastward. Demand for his product is up. But he still won’t hire.

“Why not?”

“Because I don’t know how much it will cost,” he explains. “How can I hire new workers today, when I don’t know how much they will cost me tomorrow?”

He’s referring not to wages, but to regulation: He has no way of telling what new rules will go into effect when. His business, although it covers several states, operates on low margins. He can’t afford to take the chance of losing what little profit there is to the next round of regulatory changes. And so he’s hiring nobody until he has some certainty about cost.




--------------------

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14561374 - 06/04/11 07:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

ding ding ding.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
    #14562707 - 06/04/11 11:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
good job.  you got me.



I'm not out to get anyone (in fact, I enjoy all your posts).  I'm just speaking up when I disagree with a point, as previously noted.  I credit you for understanding my last point and even more for saying so.  :toast:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #14563161 - 06/05/11 03:25 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Cutting taxes for the rich doesn't solve any of the above.



Neither does raising taxes on the rich.



Agreed.  So whether a handful of peoeple are being overpaid or not is irrelevant to this topic.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If 20 middle class Americans spend $100,000, that's just as good as one rich person spending $100,000.



LOL WUT? 



I'm saying the Gov't shouldn't take things from the middle class so they can afford a tax cut for the rich, because a tax cut of $100,000 for one person is no better for the economy than allowing 20 middle class people to have an extra $5,000 to spend.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I think I was perfectly clear.  Some police are grossly overpaid and incompetent.  Some teachers are grossly overpaid and incompetent.  All government infrastructure projects are grossly inflated in cost and the incompetence increasing with more distance from the funding source.  Feel free to actually make an argument about any of those things.



I'll make an argument about these things if you start a thread where it's relevant.  For the record, I do think a very small number of Gov't workers are overpaid.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
By the way I note that you aren't referring to investing your own money but money taken from others for your benefit.  That's all you ever talk about, in fact.



Taxes are collected for the benefit of an entire country.  They pay for roads, schools, police, libraries, etc.  This creates jobs, and gives the country essential services in return.  Should we lay workers off and cut essential services so we can give a tax cut to the rich?  That's personal opinion, but I think the benefit of keeping people employed and getting essential services outweighs tax cuts for the rich.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (06/05/11 03:42 AM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14563176 - 06/05/11 03:32 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And so he’s hiring nobody until he has some certainty about cost.



I agree there needs be some certainty around regulation costs.  I wished the article gave an example of what issue the guy was actually concerned about.  Usually, the Goverment gives business time to adjust before new rules go into effect.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleGI_Luvmoney
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14563397 - 06/05/11 06:46 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)



--------------------

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14563466 - 06/05/11 07:22 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm not out to get anyone (in fact, I enjoy all your posts).  I'm just speaking up when I disagree with a point, as previously noted.  I credit you for understanding my last point and even more for saying so.  :toast:



Oh, i know you're not out to get me.  But i oftentimes argue on here and rarely find myself in a situation where my train of logic has been stumped.  Since my analysis of most arguments takes place in lightening calculations, it only takes me a second to realize I don't have much of a rebuttal -- and consequently, the "good job".

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Should we lay workers off and cut essential services so we can give a tax cut to the rich?  That's personal opinion, but I think the benefit of keeping people employed and getting essential services outweighs tax cuts for the rich.



The way our government operates, giving tax cuts to the rich doesn't necessitate decreased government spending, or visa versa.  Whether or not they give a tax cut to the rich, government jobs are likely to continue to be cut down - since the bureaucracy is horribly overbloated, overpaid, and overprotected from being fired.

if you've EVER worked for ANY form of government, you'd know what i'm talking about.  I've worked for local government and been close friends with those at the federal level.  THe inefficiencies are widespread and disgusting.

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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14563807 - 06/05/11 09:25 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-26/carter-economic-stagnation-explained-at-30-000-feet.html

Quote:

The man in the aisle seat is trying to tell me why he refuses to hire anybody. His business is successful, he says, as the 737 cruises smoothly eastward. Demand for his product is up. But he still won’t hire.

“Why not?”

“Because I don’t know how much it will cost,” he explains. “How can I hire new workers today, when I don’t know how much they will cost me tomorrow?”

He’s referring not to wages, but to regulation: He has no way of telling what new rules will go into effect when. His business, although it covers several states, operates on low margins. He can’t afford to take the chance of losing what little profit there is to the next round of regulatory changes. And so he’s hiring nobody until he has some certainty about cost.







:lol:  What a complete line of shit.

His crystal ball is broken so he won't hire, even though his business is 'successful'?  Here's a news flash:  If one wishes to expand his business by producing more product, he's eventually going to have to hire more bodies to do so.  That's how it works.  To claim he's going to sit on his ass because he doesn't know what tomorrow will bring means he's an idiot, not a businessman.

Gotta love those "un-named guy in the isle seat on the plane said. . ." stories. It pains my heart in sympathy for those 'guy in the isle seat types' who wish to dump mercury and other toxins into our rivers and air if only the damn EPA would get out of the way, so they could hire more people. :facepalm:
RR


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Invisiblememes
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14563978 - 06/05/11 10:19 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
:lol:  What a complete line of shit.

His crystal ball is broken so he won't hire, even though his business is 'successful'?  Here's a news flash:  If one wishes to expand his business by producing more product, he's eventually going to have to hire more bodies to do so.  That's how it works.  To claim he's going to sit on his ass because he doesn't know what tomorrow will bring means he's an idiot, not a businessman.

Gotta love those "un-named guy in the isle seat on the plane said. . ." stories. It pains my heart in sympathy for those 'guy in the isle seat types' who wish to dump mercury and other toxins into our rivers and air if only the damn EPA would get out of the way, so they could hire more people. :facepalm:
RR



Sorry roger, but your response is as rediculous as you perceived zappa's to be.  Companies DO sit on their ass because of regulatory uncertainty.  Companies do not necessarily have to hire more people IN THE SHORT TERM to expan their business.  Productivity increases can be made with existing employees through investment in new capital equipment, or by altering the employee scheduling/workload/hours. 

Whether a boss decides to work his employees overtime vs hiring additional employees depends upon whether or not the employer can accurately assess the costs of both options.  We know what it costs to pay a worker overtime.  We do not know what it costs to hire an additional employee - since health care regulations (among others) are so up in the air at this point.

Additionally, i think its pretty apparent that his "guy in the isle" story is as weaksauce as your "businessman wants to dump mercury into our rivers" rant.

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