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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
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Do you guys even nkow what you're arguing about anymore? lololol.
Wasn't this thread about things getting better? Lets talk about how current economic indicators are reading, not about whether taxes to pay for people's healthcare make sense
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
#14438246 - 05/12/11 01:12 AM (13 years, 10 days ago) |
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I'll agree with the OP that things aren't getting much better. But the statement in the original post "The socialists are driving this bus off a cliff of government spending and business destruction." shows a lack of understanding of economics. Deficit spending is necessary to pull a country out of recession. It should be obvious when you spend more than you take in, that helps the economy (in the short term - obviously the loans need to be paid back later). No one proved this point better empiracally than Ronald Reagan.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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> Deficit spending is necessary to pull a country out of recession.
Deficit spending is most certainly NOT necessary to pull a country out of recession. In fact, deficit spending only spreads the pain of a recession to future generations and does nothing to fix the problem that caused the recession in the first place. Cutting a trade deficit is something that can pull a country out of recession. Going to war is something else that can pull a country out of recession (though like deficit spending, it doesn't fix the problem.)
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Seuss]
#14441411 - 05/12/11 06:25 PM (13 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: Going to war is something else that can pull a country out of recession (though like deficit spending, it doesn't fix the problem.)
lol why do you think going to war helps get us out of recessions? Beacuse the government starts running deficits to pay for wargoods, which puts everyone back to work, which puts people back in stores, which puts more people back to work.
but in the end, wars = deficits too. 
while yes, deficits to help get out of recession are sometimes helpful, they're only helpful if the fiscal policy is being implemented on productive goods and capital projects, not wasted on bridges to nowhere. But with an average business cycle of ~7yr, huge deficits can't be used to push us out of every recession when our boom cycle still results in deficit spending.
Deficits in recession? Sure, as long as you got surplus' in boom years.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
#14443125 - 05/12/11 11:54 PM (13 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
meams said: lol why do you think going to war helps get us out of recessions? Beacuse the government starts running deficits to pay for wargoods, which puts everyone back to work, which puts people back in stores, which puts more people back to work.
but in the end, wars = deficits too. 
while yes, deficits to help get out of recession are sometimes helpful, they're only helpful if the fiscal policy is being implemented on productive goods and capital projects, not wasted on bridges to nowhere. But with an average business cycle of ~7yr, huge deficits can't be used to push us out of every recession when our boom cycle still results in deficit spending.
Deficits in recession? Sure, as long as you got surplus' in boom years.
Agreed.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
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Quote:
Heffy said: Arguing with Zappa is like trying to teach a hamster to play the banjo.
Amusing, but ultimately pointless, and a waste of time.
A waste of time for Zappa, perhaps. He has repeatedly shown to have a far better understanding of the way things work & play out than 99% of the posters on here.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: When the rates go up they have less incentive to work. Why try when your last dollar is taxed into oblivion?
Extra money taxed at 40% beats no extra money.
Not if my time isn't worth Wage - 40%. And when that happens you are incentivizing people to operate below capacity, which keeps your country operating INSIDE their production possibilities frontier (lesson #1 in any econ class), which is clearly not good for growth, which in turn is not good for sales, which is not good for tax revenues (weird,'eh?)
See! I'm at point A because if i work full time and make over $xx,xxx/yr I get taxed at higher levels. Consequently, my country isn't getting as much butter or guns as it could have!

Its not even economics, its just common sense: taxes disincenvitize work. free money (social benefits) disincentivizes work (both right above & below the qualification level). our government needs to incentivize work. they need to incentivize the creation of work opportunities (make businesses want to hire).
Oddly enough, what causes these things? tax breaks individuals and businesses. Why are these always scolded? Because they're typically horrible for our economy, which, over the years, has become overwhelmingly burdened with entitlements and other programmes that continually eat away at our ability to spend [or, conversely, to not collect revenues (i.e. lower taxes)]. Soon we will be like California, with a legislature who only has control over 10% of its revenues because the other 90% has already been earmarked for various social programmes people voted for without any thought to how the bill would be paid.
To be honest, I just hit that last period and couldn't really remember what my post was about. so i'm just going to hit send wake 'n' bake, 'eh?
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
#14443940 - 05/13/11 06:13 AM (13 years, 9 days ago) |
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> lol why do you think going to war helps get us out of recessions? Beacuse the government starts running deficits to pay for wargoods
Historically, war is funded by war bonds. Regardless, the 'deficit spending' during war is much different than the socialist deficit spending I was comparing against. For example, war also creates a market for war related goods. After the war, new markets open up as war damage is repaired. There are also spoils of war that come into play.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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memes
Blessed



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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Seuss]
#14444872 - 05/13/11 10:55 AM (13 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: Historically, war is funded by war bonds.
lol in what way does a war bond operate differently from a normal T-bill?
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
#14448913 - 05/14/11 12:13 AM (13 years, 8 days ago) |
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ok seriously what does this 14 trillion mean? this is scaring the shit out of me
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/13/us-usa-budget-default-idUSTRE74C4TW20110513
are there people smart enough to maintain a business without needing bank money forwarded to them? i know small businesses can. but can big businesses start relying on their own money? aren't they supposed to HAVE more of their own money to put back in their business since they make more money then anyone else?
am i the only person who thinks this bank loan needing shit is total bullshit? i mean cmon people are going to drown if they don't swim on their own. we don't need this government deficit crap anymore.
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Seuss]
#14448928 - 05/14/11 12:16 AM (13 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > lol why do you think going to war helps get us out of recessions? Beacuse the government starts running deficits to pay for wargoods
Historically, war is funded by war bonds. Regardless, the 'deficit spending' during war is much different than the socialist deficit spending I was comparing against. For example, war also creates a market for war related goods. After the war, new markets open up as war damage is repaired. There are also spoils of war that come into play.
hey, i don't mean to be an ass but.... ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?!!?!?!?
i mean, are you talking about world war 2, or the war in the middle east?
and if you are comparing this to world war 2, please let's not forget, a fighter jet in world war 2 didn't cost a billion dollars. i don't know what it cost, because they didn't have fighter JETS, or what the equivalent is. i know that back then, battle ships cost quite a bit, but not a billion. and they were only made in limited numbers as well.
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: imachavel]
#14449202 - 05/14/11 01:37 AM (13 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
imachavel said: ok seriously what does this 14 trillion mean? this is scaring the shit out of me
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/13/us-usa-budget-default-idUSTRE74C4TW20110513
it means nothing. congress will raise the debt ceiling.
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
#14453801 - 05/14/11 10:00 PM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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what is this 14 trillion debt cieling? i thought our debt was only 2.5 trillion? what is this 14 trillion?
another thing, does anyone ever feel like the government lies about not being able to pay all this back yet? think about it, there are what, 200 million people in the united states? is every one of them, every day spends $1, and the government taxes 7% of all sales, that means they should collect 14 million dollars a day. now I know that people spend WAY more than $1 a day, and given, that none the less that every dollar the government takes in it can't just use to get rid of the debt, doesn't it STILL seem like after all these years, that by NOW they should have just OBLITERATED this debt?
wtf. i keep feeling like the bullshit just keeps piling up and up and up and up. I have no idea HOW this works, but something doesn't seem right to me. anyone care to comment on this?
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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memes
Blessed



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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: imachavel]
#14454144 - 05/14/11 11:30 PM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
imachavel said:wtf. i keep feeling like the bullshit just keeps piling up and up and up and up. I have no idea HOW this works, but something doesn't seem right to me. anyone care to comment on this?
gl finding someone to explain how the world economy works. it takes a while. there is a difference between a deficit and a debt. ill let u start with that.
the internet is yer friend. readdddd
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
#14454948 - 05/15/11 05:50 AM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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The current national debt is 14,318,124,020,417.00
The current population is 307,006,550
But you were close. 
Also, there is no national sales tax.
In 2009 the federal budget was 3,100,000,000,000
That's 8,493,150,684.93 per day.
Yup. 8.5 billion per day. 28 dollars per person per day.
However, they only took in 2,700,000,000,000
That's 7,397,260,273.97 per day.
Each day they spent 1,095,890,410.96 more than they took in.
Yup. Every day they spent 1.1 billion per day more than they took in.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (05/15/11 06:10 AM)
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memes
Blessed



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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#14455206 - 05/15/11 08:04 AM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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I'd be interested to know those specicic differentials in normal years. 2009 was like the keynesian field day of happiness
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
#14455924 - 05/15/11 12:10 PM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
meams said: I'd be interested to know those specicic differentials in normal years. 2009 was like the keynesian field day of happiness
Look here. Use a calculator.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#14456192 - 05/15/11 01:13 PM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: The current national debt is 14,318,124,020,417.00
The current population is 307,006,550
But you were close. 
Also, there is no national sales tax.
In 2009 the federal budget was 3,100,000,000,000
That's 8,493,150,684.93 per day.
Yup. 8.5 billion per day. 28 dollars per person per day.
However, they only took in 2,700,000,000,000
That's 7,397,260,273.97 per day.
Each day they spent 1,095,890,410.96 more than they took in.
Yup. Every day they spent 1.1 billion per day more than they took in.
ok, this is explaining a lot. but i'm still not understanding, what evens it out, why did a billion a day have to be spent? and what evens it back out to normal so that everything is spent evenly, and the debt is obliterated. and deficit is even or whatever?
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: memes]
#14456474 - 05/15/11 02:14 PM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
meams said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Extra money taxed at 40% beats no extra money.
Not if my time isn't worth Wage - 40%...
That's one HUGE "if", which hardly applies here for many reasons:
1. You're already getting taxed at 35% on everything; so you're really just weighing the extra 5%, not the entire 40%.
2. It has been empirically shown that the Laffer curve peaks well above the 60% tax rate, which is the point at which people start to think their think the extra time/effort isn't worth it.
3. You fail to take into consideration that salaries are exponential in the current business environment. That is, the higher you advance, the more your pay raise is. If you advance to director or vice president, you might get a 20% or more increase in salary, rather than the usual 5%-10% promotion increase. But you'd only have to pay an extra 5% in taxes on that huge pay raise, making it well worth it for almost everyone.
Quote:
meams said: See! I'm at point A because if i work full time and make over $xx,xxx/yr I get taxed at higher levels. Consequently, my country isn't getting as much butter or guns as it could have!

I've never seen taxation used as a reason for inefficiency (although I acknowledge it could be a factor at extremely high tax rates beyond what's being considered today). Reasons are usually poor management, underutilization of equipment and resources, unemployment, etc.
Quote:
meams said: lol in what way does a war bond operate differently from a normal T-bill?
Exactly. Except money spent on war disappears when a bomb explodes, but money spent on schools and bridges provides value for generations to come.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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zappaisgod
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I am currently paying around 60% on my last dollar. This disgusting condition kicks in at around a ridiculously low $250,000.
The money doesn't disappear when the bomb explodes, the bomb does. The money paid to the worker who made the bomb lives on in taxes wasted on bums and goods and services that are purchased by the bombmaker which are also taxed and wasted on bums and so on and so forth ad nauseum.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
#14456622 - 05/15/11 02:43 PM (13 years, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: ridiculously low $250,000.

Quote:
zappaisgod said: The money doesn't disappear when the bomb explodes, the bomb does. The money paid to the worker who made the bomb lives on in taxes wasted on bums and goods and services that are purchased by the bombmaker which are also taxed and wasted on bums and so on and so forth ad nauseum.
The same is also true when you build schools and roads, except the schools and roads don't disappear.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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