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Offlinezappaisgod
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Getting better? I don't fucking think so
    #14366033 - 04/28/11 09:55 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

I believe it was yesterday that my friend Madtowntripper asked if I thought things were getting better.  He cited some examples in this post.  Well news tends to be timely.  Here are the latest biopsies of the economy:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/42796520
Growth at 1.8%.  That is NOT enough by anyone's measure.  Not enough to tread water and certainly not what one would expect (and demand) in a recovery from an abysmal last few years.
Inflation is also rising and that doesn't account for food and gas prices.  Growth is down supposedly because food and gas prices are up but, in spite of low growth, prices, excluding food and gas, are rising.  Houston, we have a problem.

That article goes on to paint a somewhat rosy picture about employment but you will find that contradicted here:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/More-people-applied-for-apf-1056781553.html?x=0&.v=2

Quote:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- More people sought unemployment benefits last week, the second rise in three weeks, a sign of the slow and uneven jobs recovery.

Applications for unemployment benefits jumped 25,000 to a seasonally adjusted 429,000 for the week ending April 23, the Labor Department said Thursday. That's the highest total since late January.




And what do some of these morons blame that on?  Easter.

The ugly truth is that even if there had never been a recession any of this marginally positive sounding movement wouldn't adequately absorb the population increase.  Much less would it be pulling us upward to anywhere near where we were.  I further maintain that true unemployment is vastly higher than the official releases purport and that the new normal being touted by the welfare freaks to justify YET MORE social spending and handouts is unacceptable, not necessary and not inevitable.  The socialists are driving this bus off a cliff of government spending and business destruction.  They need to be removed.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14366178 - 04/28/11 10:38 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

> I further maintain that true unemployment is vastly higher than the official releases purport

Agree with you completely.  I'd love to know what the real unemployment rate is, including those that want to work, but no longer qualify unemployment benefits.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Seuss]
    #14366276 - 04/28/11 10:58 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

I'm going to guess that it's close to 20%.

Yep.  Did a little search.
http://behavioraleconomy.gallup.com/2011/01/real-unemployment-in-us-above-19.html

I'm gonna add that I think that number might be deceptive as well since it doesn't account for the completely unemployed who would work and only accounts ofr the part-timers who want full time work.  Then there is the construction industry......
http://lansner.ocregister.com/2011/02/04/construction-umeployment-hits-22-5/98400/

Over 20% just counting people who are counted in the official stats that are bunk.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14366291 - 04/28/11 11:02 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

> Over 20% just counting people who are counted in the official stats that are bunk.

That is a lot of Obama voters, assuming he follows Chevez and blames the rich for their plight along with giving them some money right before the election.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Seuss]
    #14366337 - 04/28/11 11:13 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

I don't think they are going to be voting that way.


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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14366454 - 04/28/11 11:36 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

Austerity: If it worked for Hoover*, it'll work for us!

*May not have worked for Hoover.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: jimbotron]
    #14366471 - 04/28/11 11:39 AM (13 years, 24 days ago)

Debt and redistribution:  If it worked for Greece*.

*May not have worked for Greece.


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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14379543 - 04/30/11 09:00 PM (13 years, 21 days ago)

I take it your answer is to put the fools who drove the bus off the cliff back in power?  Bush launched two wars financed by the deficit and did a major expansion of medicare financed by the deficit, and cut taxes during a period of budget deficits on top of it all.  Now, the Republicans who are claiming fiscal responsibility have enough votes to prevent putting the Clinton era tax rates back in place, so the choice is anarchy, disintegrating infrastructure, abolishing medicare, etc.  Meanwhile, corporate profits are going through the roof, but they get a tax cut.

I agree the unemployment rate is well above what is advertised.  When you figure in the engineers other professionals who are sweeping the floor at walmart because that's all they can get, the figures are even higher.

I would suggest Obama submit to Congress a temporary war tax to finance Iraq and Afghanistan.  If the wars are worth fighting, then they're worth doing so on a balanced budget.  If they won't pass a tax hike to fund the wars, load up our troops and bring them home.  It's obscene to be borrowing 40 cents on the dollar.  The Clinton era tax rates should be put back in place, and then when the budget is balanced and the debt is paid off, that 40 cents on the dollar can be returned to all of us in the form of a real tax cut and a restoration of the raided social security trust fund which I've been paying into for 40 years.
RR


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14381694 - 05/01/11 08:44 AM (13 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I take it your answer is to put the fools who drove the bus off the cliff back in power?  Bush launched two wars financed by the deficit and did a major expansion of medicare financed by the deficit, and cut taxes during a period of budget deficits on top of it all.  Now, the Republicans who are claiming fiscal responsibility have enough votes to prevent putting the Clinton era tax rates back in place, so the choice is anarchy, disintegrating infrastructure, abolishing medicare, etc.  Meanwhile, corporate profits are going through the roof, but they get a tax cut.




There was no tax cut, the medicare expansion is why I say Bush was NOT fiscally conservative, the wars were a relatively minor expense spread over several years and were eclipsed in one year by Obama and the Demtards.  Doesn't it seem remarkably retarded to add a greater tax burden to an already reeling populace?  Instead of shrinking government?
Quote:



I agree the unemployment rate is well above what is advertised.  When you figure in the engineers other professionals who are sweeping the floor at walmart because that's all they can get, the figures are even higher.




I doubt that is much of a significant number but under-employment is certainly an issue.  Consider law school graduates.
Quote:



I would suggest Obama submit to Congress a temporary war tax to finance Iraq and Afghanistan.  If the wars are worth fighting, then they're worth doing so on a balanced budget.  If they won't pass a tax hike to fund the wars, load up our troops and bring them home.  It's obscene to be borrowing 40 cents on the dollar.  The Clinton era tax rates should be put back in place, and then when the budget is balanced and the debt is paid off, that 40 cents on the dollar can be returned to all of us in the form of a real tax cut and a restoration of the raided social security trust fund which I've been paying into for 40 years.
RR



I think it is time to bring the boys back home now, anyway.  They've done all they can do in Afghanistan and they've done all they needed to do in Iraq.  And no, I do not believe that increasing the deficits of individual US citizens to pay the government's deficit is fiscally sound.  It rewards bad actors for bad behavior.

All of us?  You mean the half of the population that pays nothing?

Soc sec trust fund?  :rofl2:  It aws liberals who foisted that Ponzi scheme on us and it is liberals who insisted Soc Sec revenue go into the general revenue stream and liberals who took that money and gave it away as if they were real philanthropists.  Your side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14382270 - 05/01/11 12:02 PM (13 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There was no tax cut



Everyone but you seems to understand we're talking about the tax rates which were cut.  That in turn cut the revenue that we could have received.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
the wars were a relatively minor expense spread over several years



You think $1 trillion+ is a relatively minor expense?

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Doesn't it seem remarkably retarded to add a greater tax burden to an already reeling populace?



Yes, it does, but obviously you haven't been following this.  The only proposal on the table is to restore taxes on the people who are not reeling (those making over $250k/yr).

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I would suggest Obama submit to Congress a temporary war tax to finance Iraq and Afghanistan.  If the wars are worth fighting, then they're worth doing so on a balanced budget.  If they won't pass a tax hike to fund the wars, load up our troops and bring them home.



I agree.  :thumbup:

Edit:  Corrected name associated with the last quote above.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/01/11 01:31 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14382334 - 05/01/11 12:17 PM (13 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There was no tax cut



Everyone but you seems to understand we're talking about the tax rates which were cut.  That in turn cut the revenue that we could have received.




How do you know you could have received it?  You don't.  If you mean rate cut fucking write, "rate cut" instead of lying.
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
the wars were a relatively minor expense spread over several years



You think $1 trillion+ is a relatively minor expense?




Spread over several years?  Yes, absolutely yes compared to what Obama did in just one year.  I also think those wars were necessary and productive.
Quote:

 

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Doesn't it seem remarkably retarded to add a greater tax burden to an already reeling populace?



Yes, it does, but obviously you haven't been following this.  The only proposal on the table is to restore taxes on the people who are not reeling (those making over $250k/yr).




What makes you think those people aren't reeling?  Who do you think got hammered the most?  That isn't that much fucking money when you're paying a mortgage and college tuition for two kids and live in one of the most expensive areas of the country that is home to your business.  WE ALREADY ARE PAYING A DISGUSTINGLY HUGE PORTION OF THE BILL!
Quote:

 

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I would suggest Obama submit to Congress a temporary war tax to finance Iraq and Afghanistan.  If the wars are worth fighting, then they're worth doing so on a balanced budget.  If they won't pass a tax hike to fund the wars, load up our troops and bring them home.



I agree.  :thumbup:




That wasn't me, that was the other Commie.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14382695 - 05/01/11 01:29 PM (13 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Everyone but you seems to understand we're talking about the tax rates which were cut.  That in turn cut the revenue that we could have received.




How do you know you could have received it?  You don't.



Of course we would have received more.  39.6% of someone's income is more than 35%.  :wtf:

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If you mean rate cut fucking write, "rate cut" instead of lying.



It's a tax cut from what the Gov't would have received; everyone but you understands this.  Again, 35% is less than 39.6% (in case you are struggling with math).

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The only proposal on the table is to restore taxes on the people who are not reeling (those making over $250k/yr).




What makes you think those people aren't reeling?  Who do you think got hammered the most?  That isn't that much fucking money when you're paying a mortgage and college tuition for two kids and live in one of the most expensive areas of the country that is home to your business.



My bad.  I thought you were the 'zappaisgod' that complains when union workers make an outrageous $100k per year.  I guess you're actually sympathetic.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/01/11 02:57 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14383749 - 05/01/11 05:04 PM (13 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Everyone but you seems to understand we're talking about the tax rates which were cut.  That in turn cut the revenue that we could have received.




How do you know you could have received it?  You don't.



Of course we would have received more.  39.6% of someone's income is more than 35%.  :wtf:




Strangely enough you think nobody changes their behavior because of the tax code.  What a monumental piece of ignorance.  They will structure their income to reflect that.  See:  History.
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If you mean rate cut fucking write, "rate cut" instead of lying.



It's a tax cut from what the Gov't would have received; everyone but you understands this.  Again, 35% is less than 39.6% (in case you are struggling with math).




See above.  You have to be abysmally ignorant to believe people will do the same thing when the penalty is much higher.  Abysmal.
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The only proposal on the table is to restore taxes on the people who are not reeling (those making over $250k/yr).




What makes you think those people aren't reeling?  Who do you think got hammered the most?  That isn't that much fucking money when you're paying a mortgage and college tuition for two kids and live in one of the most expensive areas of the country that is home to your business.



My bad.  I thought you were the 'zappaisgod' that complains when union workers make an outrageous $100k per year.  I guess you're actually sympathetic.





Unless you are math challenged you will realize that the overpaid drones aren't the ones you and the Otard are looking to fuck.  And the overpaid drones are the ones looking to fuck me.  $250K aint "rich".  Not by a long shot around here.  I got a better idea.  Let's fire all the municipal union garbagemen and have all the welfare recipients do their jobs for their benefits.  That will reduce the tax burden on taxpayers.  Then on top of that we can make sure that everybody pays at least some income taxes, instead of none at all like a huge portion of the population pays right now.  Then we'll see how much the great unwashed thinks about government spending.

By the way, it isn't just entitlements that I despise as government spending.  Why do we have ATF, DEA, FBI all doing what should be in one bureaucracy?  EPA AND DEC?  There are numerous examples.  Why is there a federal Department of Education at all?  NEA?


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OfflineHeffy
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #14385702 - 05/01/11 10:25 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Arguing with Zappa is like trying to teach a hamster to play the banjo.

Amusing, but ultimately pointless, and a waste of time.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14385986 - 05/01/11 11:13 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Strangely enough you think nobody changes their behavior because of the tax code.  What a monumental piece of ignorance.  They will structure their income to reflect that.  See:  History.



Your "History" link is broken.  :wink:  Please show me some evidence, just like I've shown graphical evidence of the opposite.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You have to be abysmally ignorant to believe people will do the same thing when the penalty is much higher.  Abysmal.



I can tell when you've lost an argument.  It's when you stop providing any facts and switch to name calling.  :lol:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Heffy]
    #14386073 - 05/01/11 11:32 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Heffy said:
Arguing with Zappa is like trying to teach a hamster to play the banjo.

Amusing, but ultimately pointless, and a waste of time.



Thanks for taking my side.  :toast:

I actually enjoy debating zappa; he's a better debater than most conservatives.  Although you're right; he'll never admit defeat no matter how deep he's dug himself.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #14387456 - 05/02/11 08:44 AM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Strangely enough you think nobody changes their behavior because of the tax code.  What a monumental piece of ignorance.  They will structure their income to reflect that.  See:  History.



Your "History" link is broken.  :wink:  Please show me some evidence, just like I've shown graphical evidence of the opposite.




It wasn't a link.  But this is:
http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes
Quote:





Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You have to be abysmally ignorant to believe people will do the same thing when the penalty is much higher.  Abysmal.



I can tell when you've lost an argument.  It's when you stop providing any facts and switch to name calling.  :lol:




So wait, are you going to tell me that you don't believe people alter their investment and work activity in response to different tax structures?:facepalm:


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Offlined33p
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: jimbotron]
    #14389941 - 05/02/11 05:14 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
Austerity: If it worked for Hoover*, it'll work for us!

*May not have worked for Hoover.




God damn, the myth that Hoover implemented austerity just won't die.

FYI, federal spending increased under Hoover and the Fed lowered the discount rate. Roosevelt even ran on a platform accusing Hoover of being a spendthrift.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: d33p]
    #14389982 - 05/02/11 05:23 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

jimbotron said:
Austerity: If it worked for Hoover*, it'll work for us!

*May not have worked for Hoover.




God damn, the myth that Hoover implemented austerity just won't die.

FYI, federal spending increased under Hoover and the Fed lowered the discount rate. Roosevelt even ran on a platform accusing Hoover of being a spendthrift.



:rofl2::thumbup:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Getting better? I don't fucking think so [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14391872 - 05/02/11 10:35 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Please show me some evidence, just like I've shown graphical evidence of the opposite.




http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes



FAIL.  Refuted here.


Quote:

zappaisgod said:
So wait, are you going to tell me that you don't believe people alter their investment and work activity in response to different tax structures?:facepalm:



People will ALWAYS modify their behavior to avoid taxes, not just when their tax rate goes above 35%.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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