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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: g00ru] * 1
    #14391209 - 05/02/11 08:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I don't recall anyone ever being ripped off/taken advantage of because they decided to ask more questions and be more skeptical.

Can't say the same for believing claims without evidence.


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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14395135 - 05/03/11 04:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

There are certain things which can be experienced but not proven in an external format.

Out of body projection for example, isn't exactly widely studied from a materialistic point of view. One could say the experience is real. Or one could say it is an extremely vivid imaginary scene, a delusion, some kind of massive hallucination or general dysfunction of the mind.

Whichever point of view you take on the experience, there is no evidence and really no way to prove whether the experience is some kind of a spiritual experience where the individual actually leaves the body or if it is just a delusion.

In order to prove it is a purely spiritual experience, the individual would have to die and continue existing - travelling as they would through projection. So aside from having to become profecient, they would have to die to prove anything - and then it would be only to themselves.

On the other hand, to prove it to be a delusion. One would have to also die and not have any kind of continuing experience. In addition (or instead) to actually measuring the mind to see what happens during the conscious experience.
Personally though, I'm extremely skeptical about anyone who makes a claim to be able to measure the mind or consciousness. If they're not a moron, they're lying.

My conclusion here, has already been made but I did not feel the point leading up to it was elaborated enough. That is to say that there is a chasm between our perception of truth and the experience of truth, that chasm is belief.
Whether one is a materialist or spiritualist, at the end of the day the more fundamental points held in belief (hopefully with many reasons).




Another spiritual experience would be communing with spirit. Sitting down in meditation and communing with the cosmic consciousness.
The proof for a spiritualist would depend on how far the evolve contrasted with inevitable death and the experience after that (if there should be one).

For a skeptic, an argument could be made that the experience itself was an imaginary exercise or delusion, and the positive feelings experienced was dopamine being manually emitted into the body.

The proof however, would have to wait till after death. For even if dopamine is being released in the body during such an experience (which I haven't heard of, but it probably happens), that would just be how the spiritual experience meets the physical.



Personally, I have my beliefs - based off experience, education, and much pondering. I'm also very skeptical, less so of certain things but to a degree with everything. Believe in some thing, open to new and contradicting ideas - if coming from a valid source with proof and good logic


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14411220 - 05/06/11 04:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
well, yeah.  The main different i can tell is that i've become wayyyy more sensitive to people's energy, it's like i can get really accurate reads on people and sense their mood easily.


*difference:nerd:

What do you mean by people's "energy"? How do you know that your reads are accurate, how have you tested their accuracy?


Quote:

guruu said:
It's just being aware of the present moment but that's another way to look at it.


What's so special about being aware of the present moment?


Quote:

guruu said:
i was thinking about this thread and even though i have attained a certain spiritual position...


Which position is that, and how do you know you've attained it?



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Poid said:
What, besides a condescending attitude, have you attained?



:rofl2:  Awareness?


Hey, I am truly aware. :levitate:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: ahchela]
    #14413363 - 05/07/11 12:38 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

What basis do you have to claim things like astral projection, out of body experiences, et cet cannot be proven?

You say people would have to die, but it isn't clear why.

Why can't you just, you know, ask someone "hey, what did you see?  Where did you go when you were out of your body?  What did you experience?" and compare that to observations of the places.

It seems plain that such a thing could have good evidence, enough to prove the matter. Folks could describe areas of the hospital they've not been in and have no knowledge of, et cet.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: johnm214]
    #14414619 - 05/07/11 10:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

it does have evidence, they're called dreams, recognition of dreams as evidence for such phenomena, however, will only occur along with a total paradigm shift where consciousness is seen as the precursor of the physical world, rather than the other way around


--------------------
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drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14414756 - 05/07/11 11:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What's so special about being aware of the present moment?




Well, if you aren't, you end up asking questions like this one. :smile:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #14414791 - 05/07/11 11:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

As long as I'm awake, I'm always aware of the present moment--such a thing (awareness of the present moment) strikes me as being ordinary, not special. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: Poid]
    #14414803 - 05/07/11 11:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
As long as I'm awake, I'm always aware of the present moment--such a thing (awareness of the present moment) strikes me as being ordinary, not special. :shrug:




I think the idea drives at the fact that most times you are theoretically aware of the present moment, you are making considerations for other moments, past or future, oftentimes with the unexamined assumption that the consideration of those moments is more important than consideration of the present moment

Could be wrong about that though.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14414924 - 05/07/11 12:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
As long as I'm awake, I'm always aware of the present moment--such a thing (awareness of the present moment) strikes me as being ordinary, not special. :shrug:




I think the idea drives at the fact that most times you are theoretically aware of the present moment, you are making considerations for other moments, past or future, oftentimes with the unexamined assumption that the consideration of those moments is more important than consideration of the present moment.


I'm not so sure that's a fact (that people's minds are more consumed with either the past or future than the present); I'd be interested in seeing a study on this...:strokebeard:

I personally don't think it's true of myself..I am often aware of the present moment, soaking in my surroundings, appreciating the awe & beauty of the universe, etc. It's usually the case that any thoughts considering past or future events are experienced as interruptions to the usual/ordinary (not special) awareness of the present moment/appreciation of the awe & beauty of the universe; I can't speak for others, though, which is why I'd be interested in seeing a study on this.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: Poid]
    #14414931 - 05/07/11 12:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I know staying in the present moment is an ongoing struggle for myself. Most of the time I'm distracted with swirling concerns about school, interpersonal relationships, my long-term decisions in general, et cetera. I think these things have their place, but they should take a natural backseat to simple moment-to-moment unconditional enjoyment of this life we're living.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14414999 - 05/07/11 12:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I know staying in the present moment is an ongoing struggle for myself. Most of the time I'm distracted with swirling concerns about school, interpersonal relationships, my long-term decisions in general, et cetera.


Well, I don't go to school anymore, and I don't really have any long-term decisions--now, I learn for fun (it's stress-free! :grin:), and make most of my decisions on mere whims. :awesome:

I do spend a lot of time thinking about interpersonal relationships, though, but even then a lot of attention is payed to my surroundings, especially if I'm outdoors.


Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I think these things have their place, but they should take a natural backseat to simple moment-to-moment unconditional enjoyment of this life we're living.


Yeah, life can be awesome. :snoop:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (04/23/12 09:35 PM)


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: Poid]
    #14415007 - 05/07/11 12:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It was easy for me to stay in the present moment before I went back to school, but the feeling of going headlong into the rest of my life with an education in nothing but coffee made me pretty anxious at the same time.

Such a juggling act, this life is. :juggle:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14415081 - 05/07/11 12:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I don't really like the standardized model of education..I learn best either alone, or with a partner/tutor. If I were able to get the same or similar quality of education at home that I'd be able to get at a university (and if it were free, or at least very cheap), then I'd jump at the chance; my nihilistic/cynical side prevents me from taking enough interest in school to make the necessary sacrifices in order to become a successful student. I think this also comes from my Mexican side.

:mexican:


Such a juggling act, this life is.

Yeah, it can be at times. I'm lucky to be in a stable, comfortable situation ATM, so I can't complain (although I still do). :grin:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: Poid]
    #14415429 - 05/07/11 02:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I know what you mean. That "standardized" model is what prohibited me from taking education seriously for the first six years of my adult life, which is about the time it took me to decide that putting up with the bullshit was worth it to gain access to the research apparatus and communities made available by universities. :thumbup:

I have a lot of questions about brain and the mind that can't be answered by current science... so rather than answering those questions with bullshit mysticism I've decided to take the academic route.


Edited by Tchan909 (05/07/11 02:16 PM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14415502 - 05/07/11 02:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I have a lot of questions about brain and the mind that can't be answered by current science... so rather than answering those questions with bullshit mysticism I've decided to take the academic route.


Well, you can always read up on the latest studies, while spending energy on pursuing other possibly more satisfying endeavors--academic training is pretty rigorous, and can take a lot out of a person (depending on the individual, of course). At this point in my life, I'm personally fine with the answers available to me in science books and internet sites etc., but am not totally ruling out the possibility of one day getting serious about school.

What kinds of questions would you like to answer that others prefer to answer with mysticism? Is not wanting to believe in mysticism your main motivation for being in school? Can't you answer those questions without either bullshit mysticism, or the academic route?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: Poid]
    #14415583 - 05/07/11 02:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I feel like only a rigorous academic understanding of the structure of the brain will enable me to ask coherent questions about the finer points of neurological functioning.

It's not an aversion to mysticism that makes me want to study - it's the simple fact that science does not have all the answers to my questions, so I'd like to be able to phrase those questions scientifically, and furthermore to have the means to answer them scientifically.

Science as-is tells us a lot about how the universe works and has given us unbelievable technology, but under the fine-tuned surface is a bubbling crockpot of statistical anomalies, competing theories, unanswered questions, unasked questions. I want to personally go beyond the limits of presently-available data. I don't expect any currently-living scientists to be asking the exact same questions I am or to have had the exact same personal insights I've had.

I figure if I've had enough of it or become disillusioned by the time I get my bachelor's, then I can change course; otherwise, I'll continue my pursuit of research work and a post-graduate degree.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: johnm214]
    #14435348 - 05/11/11 03:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
What basis do you have to claim things like astral projection, out of body experiences, et cet cannot be proven?

You say people would have to die, but it isn't clear why.

Why can't you just, you know, ask someone "hey, what did you see?  Where did you go when you were out of your body?  What did you experience?" and compare that to observations of the places.

It seems plain that such a thing could have good evidence, enough to prove the matter. Folks could describe areas of the hospital they've not been in and have no knowledge of, et cet.




Thats a good point... if two people could meet out of the body and communicate something, then write it down in the physical and compare the notes - that would also mean something.

I can't really argue against that point. It would make for a really interesting study, but as I don't trust people - I would have to participate for it to mean anything to me. There have already been studies similar to that, but theres no reason to trust the authors as there is a lot to gain from people believing one has those kind of abilities.

The part about death, was referring more to first hand experience and the idea that it could be some delusion which would be unverifiable until death. In certain Yogic systems, the idea behind out of body travel is to transcend death. When the body dies the individual would theoretically leave the body and be seperate from the phenomena of death and reincarnation. So I was speculating that the experience would need to be fulfilled first hand for true evidence.
On the other hand out of body experiences in general could be verified as you said, though I do not trust the studies which purport to prove any sort of psychic phenomena.

This is coming from someone with extensive first hand experience :shrug:
I believe my experiences, its better than assuming myself to be crazy or delusional. Does experience + belief = truth? No.
For all I know the Catholics are right and I should be confessing my 'sins' to some pedophile in a closet.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: ahchela]
    #14437464 - 05/11/11 10:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ahchela said:
There have already been studies similar to that, but theres no reason to trust the authors as there is a lot to gain from people believing one has those kind of abilities.


Like what?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: ahchela]
    #14438476 - 05/12/11 02:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ahchela said:
There are certain things which can be experienced but not proven in an external format.

Out of body projection for example, isn't exactly widely studied from a materialistic point of view. One could say the experience is real. Or one could say it is an extremely vivid imaginary scene, a delusion, some kind of massive hallucination or general dysfunction of the mind.

Whichever point of view you take on the experience, there is no evidence and really no way to prove whether the experience is some kind of a spiritual experience where the individual actually leaves the body or if it is just a delusion.




Sure there is; Robert Bruce in his book Astral Dynamics describes the Playing Card Experiment wherein one shuffles a deck of cards and places one face-up on the top of a high shelf without looking at it.  After projecting out of body one would then float up to the shelf and look at the card; upon returning to one's body one would confirm that the card is, in fact, the one you saw.  Multiple people on OBE forums have reported success with this experiment--whether or not you believe them is of course a matter of your personal skepticism and/or willingness to perform the experiment yourself.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Longest lived human being? [Re: Poid]
    #14447238 - 05/13/11 07:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:


Sure there is; Robert Bruce in his book Astral Dynamics describes the Playing Card Experiment wherein one shuffles a deck of cards and places one face-up on the top of a high shelf without looking at it.  After projecting out of body one would then float up to the shelf and look at the card; upon returning to one's body one would confirm that the card is, in fact, the one you saw.  Multiple people on OBE forums have reported success with this experiment--whether or not you believe them is of course a matter of your personal skepticism and/or willingness to perform the experiment yourself.




It is personal skeptisism, not in my own experience but in others.
As far as my own experience goes I maintain a thread of logic, as the basis of my reality, that I can always be wrong in anything - even my in my interpretation of experiences.
As far as others go, especially the likes of personality cults like Robert Bruce and Paul Twitchell. I remain skeptical.



Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

ahchela said:
There have already been studies similar to that, but theres no reason to trust the authors as there is a lot to gain from people believing one has those kind of abilities.


Like what?




Starting a cult, ego boosting, manipulative leverage, selling books.
You already knew the answer to that question man

:money:


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


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