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Offlineg00ru
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dualism
    #14364401 - 04/27/11 11:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So dualism is the idea that there are two types of stuff in the universe: mental and physical.  The general materialist objection against this is that the non physical couldn't possibly influence the physical, as it's of an entirely different nature.  The way I see it, however, they are part of an energy continuum, but at a certain point certain energy structures (like thoughts or chakras which are simply points of body awareness) become so much more subtle than gross physical structures that they reach a tipping point and you can start to call it another type of substance all together (most people just call it energy or something).  If you don't wanna believe in chakras just disregard them entirely as they're irrelevant to my argument.

Now, this doesn't mean that there aren't correlative physical structures.  In the case of chakras you have the physiological locations and organs (like ur dick for the second chakra, navel for the 3rd, etc.) and for thoughts there are measurable brainwaves and neurons firing.  But if we actually analyze our experience empirically, as in this moment right here that you're experiencing, we have to assume that these thoughts are of a much more subtle and less gross nature than the physical world.  I'm talking about the actual thoughts in your head that you can sort of hear.  The voice that's reading these words.  I realize that this is considered an inductively weak philosophical argument, but i think that's crap.  Look at your thoughts.  They aren't anything like the computer in front of you, they're obviously different and I think we can all be aware enough as beings to agree upon this fact.

So for this reason I think the term dualism is highly misleading; it implies that there's two types of stuff when really there's just one continuum of being (pure being is obviously the most subtle substance there could be.  What could be more subtle than being itself?)  And if we can come to the conclusion that thoughts and matter are of a different but ultimately connected substance or energy, that gives much more credence to the idea of metaphysics in general, and such notions as reincarnation, karma, and subtle realms, because all of a sudden you see that it's pure assumption to think that mind arose out of the physical world.  We flat out don't know that, the physical world could just as easily have arisen out of consciousness when you really think about it.  And if you investigate this stuff and start applying it to your life....you just might develop a hunch about which direction reality really works.

In>>out is more likely than bottom>>>up            if you catch my drift.

I mean think about it.  We are having a conscious experience in this life.  Isn't it just likely that it all comes back to consciousness? That the secret to how to view reality is actually very simple and most people simply never look at the most obvious solution?

oh and finally, i think the equation e=mc^2 highly infers my argument here, as it shows how matter is really just a slowly vibrating form of energy, though it has nothing to add about thoughts per se


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Offlinedazzassj6
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Re: dualism [Re: g00ru]
    #14365190 - 04/28/11 04:33 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i get your argument. One question i always had is where does our "ideas" or "Creativity" come from. Where does one get the idea of creating an Iphone come from? If you think about it, it is just a mental idea --> physical existence. But where does this "idea" come from?

And thats where the dualism concept comes in to explain this. What i think is there is a bank of collective consciousness in the mental realm (non physical).

what do you think?


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: dualism [Re: dazzassj6]
    #14365610 - 04/28/11 07:44 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think proponents of materialism would say that the physical brain can come up with new solutions by combining existing knowledge in new ways.


with regards to the OP i find an interesting point of possibly conflict amongst readers. The term empirical has special meaning today. It implies that a measurement is being made.

With today's empiricism, we use scientific tools to make measurements. But these tools themselves are part of our measurements, because we are looking at the tools and measuring (with our mind) what measurements they are reading from the environment.

So we have two types of empirical investigation - the measurement of our senses, and the measurement of the physical world using tools. The latter form of measurement requires the former, but the former is totally insignificant to modern scientific rationaal


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: dualism [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14365866 - 04/28/11 09:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Can someone explain how, if there was some non-physical kind of "stuff," it would be able to interact with matter at all?


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Re: dualism [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14365892 - 04/28/11 09:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

hmm im not sure if i understand your last line correctly. But you say "the measurement of our senses" is insignificant to modern scientific rational, but we have a field of psychology which measures our perception and other things that goes on in our mind thru the use of the scientist-practitioner model.

But yes ur argument that measurement is subjective is also applicable to psychology as well. We as a society regards wat are norms and what is not. Also being empirical also has its limits. There are some things we cannot measure.

Ok back to my previous point you responded "I think proponents of materialism would say that the physical brain can come up with new solutions by combining existing knowledge in new ways."

I know its a combination of existing knowledge for most things. However somethings popped out of no existing knowledge, eg how does a guy come up with a social network site called facebook? where did he get the idea from? Why doesn't animals receive this idea? I know it sounds stupid but how do we get the idea of out of nothing. It has to come from somewhere. the idea of facebook certainly isnt wired into our brains.

it sounds like a homunculus argument but im just basing this idea on dualism. =p


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Offlinedazzassj6
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Re: dualism [Re: NetDiver]
    #14365909 - 04/28/11 09:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

will i think u already answered your own question. It cannot, as one's physical and one's non physical.

But define non physical? light is non physical yet it can react with plants and solar panels and us.

Would you say that all non physical "stuff" is just another form of energy and that being "physical" is just a collection of that energy but made in a complex form? and that the consciousness of our minds is just part of a bigger collection of "energy" aka collective consciousness ?

lol I dunno... im just throwing stuff out there. How can you really know? dont tell me you know cuz the lil green alien told you when you did 15g of shrooms. hehe


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: dualism [Re: dazzassj6]
    #14365987 - 04/28/11 09:39 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Light is not non-physical. It is made of photons which act according to the laws of quantum mechanics.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: dualism [Re: NetDiver]
    #14366166 - 04/28/11 10:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

but still, it's clearly of a different kind then gross physical matter, it's much more rarified.  I don't think mental stuff is non-physical in the broadest sense, because yeah that would be illogical to think that non physical could interact with physical.  It's just so much more subtle that it becomes appropriate to call it non-physical since we have to have some term to describe this external world and body we find ourselves in.

Quote:

dazzassj6 said:
i get your argument. One question i always had is where does our "ideas" or "Creativity" come from. Where does one get the idea of creating an Iphone come from? If you think about it, it is just a mental idea --> physical existence. But where does this "idea" come from?

And thats where the dualism concept comes in to explain this. What i think is there is a bank of collective consciousness in the mental realm (non physical).

what do you think?




i agree, and that kind of goes back to hume's problem with induction: where does our reasoning about things come from?  In a philosophical sense, where does the thought come from that touching a hot stove will hurt? Before the experience of touching the stove, there is no way in hell to reason that you will be hurt by it.  A better example might be, say a tribe of indians who'se never seen gunpowder just sees a pile of it on the ground.  There's no way in hell they are going to use reason to deduce that putting fire on it will make it explode, even though that is a property inherent in the gunpowder.  What my point is in this is that thoughts aren't self employed...they have to come from something, usually experience.

But as in your example of the ipod, no experience will prompt you towards that creative brilliance (usually).  As I've discovered for myself after many hours playing guitar in my room, truly creative ideas can't be predicted, they simply arise out of the heart.  It's up to you to be enough in the moment/in your heart to catch the ideas right when they pop out and then go to town on em.  Sorry if that was unclear :lol:


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Re: dualism [Re: g00ru]
    #14366174 - 04/28/11 10:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

input (physical environment/genes)->processing (nonphysical mental/pattern processing)->output (physical acting/speaking)
Btw this mental nonphysical only might seem so, as the output of complex systems often is not clearly describable until u can measure and co-relate even the tiniest part of it.
Material vs spiritual is a bad example imho.
I more see a dualism in existence and non-existence, for example.


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Re: dualism [Re: g00ru]
    #14366391 - 04/28/11 11:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think I sort of get what you are saying guruu in your OP. Me and antieverything have been talking about something similar. We often talk of consciousness and collective consciousness as metaphysics or a meta game that humans are involved with. Its very hard for one person to override a crowd of people. Group think is an excellent example of this. Politics would be another. Elections are nothing more than our collective consciousness, something more subtle on the energy continuum, that is actually making a decision that changes something in the physical world. The home field advantage in sports, etc. Is this the sort of thing you are talking about in your OP?


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"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
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Offlineg00ru
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Re: dualism [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14366421 - 04/28/11 11:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yeah, i'm basically making a case that consciousness is the foundation of reality.  So shared reality is collective consciousness, and yes that explains so much like politics, home field advantage.  Even weird shit like facial hair.  If you don't have much, you need to grow your stubble out and not bitch out and shave it cause people need to see it on your face, then they'll be like "oh he has a mustache" and all of a sudden that's the shared reality and your facial hair starts growing more.  Sounds crazy but I actually think it's quite true.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: dualism [Re: g00ru]
    #14366444 - 04/28/11 11:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I don't disagree with the idea that consciousness is the foundation of reality, in a way.

What I am disagreeing with is the idea that that somehow allows it to supersede matter.

Matter is consciousness, and consciousness is matter. You can't find one without the other, any more than you can look around yourself in a mirror. And that is not dualism.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: dualism [Re: NetDiver]
    #14366462 - 04/28/11 11:37 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

true, but it doesn't have to be this very dense physical matter, which is very slow and hard to change compared to other stuff.  That's what astral realms are.  Planes of existence that are highly thought responsive.  Dreams, for instance.  But in a dream you are asleep and still tethered to the physical body.  After death there's no more body to hold you back and your base of reality becomes these astral planes, aka the spirit world or "other side." Just my opinion tho, I haven't truly experienced it in a way that proves to me it exists as an afterlife, although I have had OBE experiences while sleeping where I left my body and ran around a dream world that looked exactly like this one.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: dualism [Re: g00ru]
    #14366483 - 04/28/11 11:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

There's no "you" though. I disagree with all this talk about spirits on a philosophical basis. Look at your own personal identity. It is fluid, constantly changing, unfixed. It changes and evolves along with your body/the physical world (because that's what it is). There is no fixed essence that makes you "you."


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: dualism [Re: NetDiver]
    #14366496 - 04/28/11 11:44 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yeah that's true but at the same time there is this phenomenon of individuality, there is a discreet essence, that we can speak about just for the purpose of description.  Just on a relative level.  That's why, even though we aren't the body, in a sense the body is a soul insofar as there is a separate soul to begin with, and in our experience its clear that there are individuals.  And something does die and reincarnate.  That's why even though buddhism teaches that there is no self, at the same time they have detailed lists of the buddha's past 27 lives.  Pretty exact description of his reincarnating self for there not being a self.


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Re: dualism [Re: NetDiver]
    #14366530 - 04/28/11 11:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
There's no "you" though. I disagree with all this talk about spirits on a philosophical basis. Look at your own personal identity. It is fluid, constantly changing, unfixed. It changes and evolves along with your body/the physical world (because that's what it is). There is no fixed essence that makes you "you."




I'm going to agree with you 100% here. Consciousness may be a type of metaphysics but our 'I' or 'me' is constantly being acted on by the more gross physical world and in turn we are acting back on the physical world. For example runners high while jogging or working out or smoking cannabis. Our consciousness chose to go running or light up that blunt and in turn the physical consequences of our will end up affecting our consciousness by changing it. Even our consciousness in dreams is effected by the physical world around us, ever had an alarm go off while you were dreaming?


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Re: dualism [Re: g00ru]
    #14366554 - 04/28/11 11:54 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Consciousness can't change physical reality any more than I can put a hat on my shadow.


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Re: dualism [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14366678 - 04/28/11 12:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Consciousness can't change physical reality any more than I can put a hat on my shadow.




Please explain.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: dualism [Re: NetDiver]
    #14371797 - 04/29/11 09:23 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Can someone explain how, if there was some non-physical kind of "stuff," it would be able to interact with matter at all?




This is the old 'causal closure' argument. How can something non-physical cause a change in the physical?

The answer is simple. We define physical as all that which is defined by physics. Then we realise that our physics does not describe all of its factors - there is a random element. Then we posit that this random element is in fact open to influence from something that is not described by our physical laws.

As long as the influence keeps the physical world within the probability wave function, all the laws of physics are preserved


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: dualism [Re: dazzassj6]
    #14371813 - 04/29/11 09:30 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dazzassj6 said:
hmm im not sure if i understand your last line correctly. But you say "the measurement of our senses" is insignificant to modern scientific rational, but we have a field of psychology which measures our perception and other things that goes on in our mind thru the use of the scientist-practitioner model.

But yes ur argument that measurement is subjective is also applicable to psychology as well. We as a society regards wat are norms and what is not. Also being empirical also has its limits. There are some things we cannot measure.

Ok back to my previous point you responded "I think proponents of materialism would say that the physical brain can come up with new solutions by combining existing knowledge in new ways."

I know its a combination of existing knowledge for most things. However somethings popped out of no existing knowledge, eg how does a guy come up with a social network site called facebook? where did he get the idea from? Why doesn't animals receive this idea? I know it sounds stupid but how do we get the idea of out of nothing. It has to come from somewhere. the idea of facebook certainly isnt wired into our brains.

it sounds like a homunculus argument but im just basing this idea on dualism. =p




The field of psychology does not measure our senses. It measures our ability to behave according to our sensory data. It uses tools such as questionairres, brain scans, and interactive tasks to make 'objective measurements'.


As for your latter point, facebook was nothing new. There was already the idea of 'facebooks' but Zuckerburger adapted the idea according to demands - he included more information, and made the facebook open to the whole world, rather than restricted to a specific server. Myspace was around before facebook, for one, and facebook took off largely because it was a more functional, controllable, streamlined version of myspace. The idea may or may not have been influenced by a transcendental power of human ingenuity, but in principle it may also have been created by a complex machine. I think you might be able to find better examples of creativity, but ultimately it would be perhaps impossible to show that it could not have been made by combining existing ideas. I think if it involved a totally new idea then no one would understand what it was


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: dualism [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14371970 - 04/29/11 10:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
This is the old 'causal closure' argument. How can something non-physical cause a change in the physical?

The answer is simple. We define physical as all that which is defined by physics. Then we realise that our physics does not describe all of its factors - there is a random element. Then we posit that this random element is in fact open to influence from something that is not described by our physical laws.

As long as the influence keeps the physical world within the probability wave function, all the laws of physics are preserved



The influence of randomness does not imply some kind of separate essence from physical substance, IMO - it is physical substance. In my mind physical substance = qualia = randomness (i.e. I can tell red from blue, but the actual experience I have when looking at them is not really definable; it's random).


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Re: dualism [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14372194 - 04/29/11 11:29 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Consciousness can't change physical reality any more than I can put a hat on my shadow.




Please explain.




Hard to simplify this one any further - but the only way to put a hat on your shadow is to put the hat on your own head. You can't reach out and put a hat on the shadow itself.

Physical reality works in a similar way; it is a dynamic reflection of consciousness. The "problem of free will" rests on the assumption that the mind is created by and within physical reality, rather than the other way around.


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Re: dualism [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14372663 - 04/29/11 01:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Consciousness can't change physical reality any more than I can put a hat on my shadow.




Please explain.




Hard to simplify this one any further - but the only way to put a hat on your shadow is to put the hat on your own head. You can't reach out and put a hat on the shadow itself.

Physical reality works in a similar way; it is a dynamic reflection of consciousness. The "problem of free will" rests on the assumption that the mind is created by and within physical reality, rather than the other way around.




I guess to put it simply. Thoughts, willing, ideas, consciousness, and mind are all pretty interchangeable whether you think them as a result of something physical or something metaphysical. Our mind tells our body what to do and our body tells our mind what to do. Or in your terms, our consciousness can change physical reality and physical reality can change our consciousness.

1. Mind tells body to consume a beer - This is consciousness changing physical reality
2. Body tells mind to take a piss - This is physical reality changing our consciousness.

The human mind or consciousness is not in a vacuum somewhere. It is inextricably linked to physical reality.

I'll leave you with a question. Can you prove to me that my mind/consciousness has no control or effect over my body(aka physical reality)?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offline4896744
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Re: dualism [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14372979 - 04/29/11 02:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I guess to put it simply. Thoughts, willing, ideas, consciousness, and mind are all pretty interchangeable whether you think them as a result of something physical or something metaphysical. Our mind tells our body what to do and our body tells our mind what to do. Or in your terms, our consciousness can change physical reality and physical reality can change our consciousness.

1. Mind tells body to consume a beer - This is consciousness changing physical reality
2. Body tells mind to take a piss - This is physical reality changing our consciousness.

The human mind or consciousness is not in a vacuum somewhere. It is inextricably linked to physical reality.

I'll leave you with a question. Can you prove to me that my mind/consciousness has no control or effect over my body(aka physical reality)?






Your problem is that you separate consciousness from physical reality. The conscience is physical reality, we just do not have a good understanding of it yet. In essence, you have it backwards. All of your "physical reality" is what completely controls the conscience.


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Re: dualism [Re: NetDiver]
    #14373050 - 04/29/11 02:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

quote]There's no "you" though. I disagree with all this talk about spirits on a philosophical basis. Look at your own personal identity. It is fluid, constantly changing, unfixed. It changes and evolves along with your body/the physical world (because that's what it is). There is no fixed essence that makes you "you."





I disagree that there is no "me" just because my "personal idenity" is in flux, probably because I your idea of personal idenity is false or your concept of personal identity is false. The things that are caused by me and that can be attributed to me are NOT me.
Emptiness is form and I am empty but I exist none the less.

Quote:

Can someone explain how, if there was some non-physical kind of "stuff," it would be able to interact with matter at all?




Well thats the mystery tho isn't it. However you say "if there was this non-physical stuff" as if it is hypothetical when on the contrary it is all that can be known. You can look inward and observe yourself and it cannot be denied that our experience is a non-physical occurance. What can be denied is this non non-physical stuff that you call matter.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: dualism [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14373741 - 04/29/11 05:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
I'll leave you with a question. Can you prove to me that my mind/consciousness has no control or effect over my body(aka physical reality)?




This question relies upon the fallacious ontology of mind/body dualism.

The mind is reflected in physical reality (itself a manifestation of the mind) - most closely in your body, but more distantly in everybody and everything else.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: dualism [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14373833 - 04/29/11 05:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
I'll leave you with a question. Can you prove to me that my mind/consciousness has no control or effect over my body(aka physical reality)?




This question relies upon the fallacious ontology of mind/body dualism.

The mind is reflected in physical reality (itself a manifestation of the mind) - most closely in your body, but more distantly in everybody and everything else.




So the consciousness and physical reality are one in the same?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: dualism [Re: 4896744]
    #14373848 - 04/29/11 05:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

I guess to put it simply. Thoughts, willing, ideas, consciousness, and mind are all pretty interchangeable whether you think them as a result of something physical or something metaphysical. Our mind tells our body what to do and our body tells our mind what to do. Or in your terms, our consciousness can change physical reality and physical reality can change our consciousness.

1. Mind tells body to consume a beer - This is consciousness changing physical reality
2. Body tells mind to take a piss - This is physical reality changing our consciousness.

The human mind or consciousness is not in a vacuum somewhere. It is inextricably linked to physical reality.

I'll leave you with a question. Can you prove to me that my mind/consciousness has no control or effect over my body(aka physical reality)?






Your problem is that you separate consciousness from physical reality. The conscience is physical reality, we just do not have a good understanding of it yet. In essence, you have it backwards. All of your "physical reality" is what completely controls the conscience.




I've not so much done that. In my initial posts in this thread I agree with the OP that physical reality and consciousness are on the same continuum. One side of the continuum can affect the other side imo.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offlinezoomfan
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Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: dualism [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14375165 - 04/29/11 10:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i think to really understand this kind of stuff you need to have a more wholistic view of consciousness. consciousness isnt just thoughts sensations etc as opposed to physical reality, just as smell isnt just smell. it is a relationship between two organized groupings of particles, to say that there is a duality, or a split between physical reality and consciousness is ridiculous to me. When electricity is introduced into a lightbulb, the effect is light, just as when manure particles react with olfactory sensors, smell is produced. we still have the same problem describing what light is, as we do what smell is. we can say light is photons but what are photons? and we come to a point of infinite regression or whatever. if smell isnt physical ...then following the same logic, nothing is physical.


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Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.


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Offlineunsui888
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Re: dualism [Re: zoomfan]
    #14382158 - 05/01/11 11:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i've always viewed this dualism thing as basically a double aspecticism view, which says that the mind and the body are not distinct substances, rather they're two different aspects of the same substance - sort of like Spinoza's monism. i have had a theory/thought that there's 3 basic levels to reality and one level is duality, one level consists of the monist view mentioned above where the duality is seen as unity, and the other level is nothing... we're very accustomed, perhaps from our natural perception human processes, to the dualistic framework/structure, but this is not to say we can't reach other levels of reality via higher levels of consciousness, if there is such a thing...


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"a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing"

primus------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool


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