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norm
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Have humans strayed too far from nature? *DELETED*
#14356605 - 04/26/11 05:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by normReason for deletion: .
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realfuzzhead



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: norm]
#14356622 - 04/26/11 05:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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bro we are nature.
technology is nature.. we make a difference for convienence purposes but we are nature, just in another stage of evolution
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twighead
mͯó



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: realfuzzhead]
#14356629 - 04/26/11 05:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
realfuzzhead said: bro we are nature.
technology is nature.. we make a difference for convienence purposes but we are nature, just in another stage of evolution
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norm
Stranger


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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: twighead]
#14356695 - 04/26/11 05:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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.
Edited by norm (07/07/12 01:12 PM)
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realfuzzhead



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: norm]
#14356710 - 04/26/11 05:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i said the difference has been artificially made in our language and perceptions between "nature" and "humans", but really we are nature. Technology is nature.
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twighead
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: norm]
#14356718 - 04/26/11 05:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't know about you but come winter I'm fucking happy I live indoors closed off from the freezing ass temperatures outside and I don't need to starve or hunt scarce wildlife to survive... I can just go to the store and pick up some shit from across the globe. Oh and I like baths and showers and stuff.
I'm sure living back then had its merits but I'm pretty damn sure I'd prefer now.
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HuHEN
I am the Owl



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: realfuzzhead]
#14356724 - 04/26/11 05:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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We are still evolving. You can still go live in the wild and hunt deer and pick fruit if you want....
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norm
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: HuHEN]
#14356765 - 04/26/11 06:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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.
Edited by norm (07/07/12 01:12 PM)
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gerryjarcia
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: norm]
#14356789 - 04/26/11 06:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
norm said: So I went to the zoo last weekend. While watching the monkeys, I had kind of a strange thought that I've been thinking about ever since...
People have been around for a long time. Before writing, before farming, even before money. I'm not an expert in anthropology or evolution, but I imagine that human society would have behaved a lot like our primate ancestors would have. Think about how far we've strayed from that. Humans are really just another species of animal, which had the capabilities to survive and be happy long before any of the shit we rely on today. Just like monkeys, I imagine people used to live in small isolated groups, and were driven mostly by the need for food, water, and shelter. Occasionally they would have to defend themselves from some natural predator or something, but mostly they were content just living their lives and not dying.
Look at how we operate now. Every day, I have so much extra bullshit to worry about, that doesn't need to be there. At the zoo, I was jealous at the monkeys, who jumped from tree to tree, playing with each other, etc. (obviously monkeys in the wild have a lot more to do to survive, but bear with me here). Every day, I have to get up early, pay tuition and rent, go to fucking class (1st year college student in Montana), have to worry about money, jobs, education, car maintenance... the list just goes on and on. All the technology we have the "privilege" of having in 2011 is supposed to make us happier and our lives easier. But does it really?
If we somehow never advanced from our natural place on earth, I feel like our lives would be so much easier. All these stupid world problems like obesity, huge corporations, pollution, deforestation, sweat shops, overpopulation, world wars, on and on and on and on... none of this stuff would even be possible. I remember reading an article once about the remaining hunter-gatherer tribes in the Amazon. They found that on average, these people only worked for a few hours a day. And they were fucking happy! People today have so much more to do, so much more to worry about, so much more to take care of.
Anyone feel me on this? I just think I would have been a much happier, satisfied human being if I'd been born twenty or thirty thousand years ago. Or maybe if I was a monkey...
yeah, i understand where you are coming from.
read anything by the late great Joseph Campbell (i'd say start with "The Power Of Myth"). he equates all of the scratching and scraping and running and spitting our species does with the myths we tell ourselves about what it means to "exist", what it means to be a human.
you live out your cultural and personal myth. we all do, every day.
learn a new myth, live a different story.
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"We are all intoxicated. We were born into an insane asylum, a world crazy-making. We believe what we see and hear. The real myth is the myth of sanity, of rationality: it's a disease that is eating away at the earth. All the poisons flow from our denial. We deny madness, we forget our crimes, we dismember the corpse, we imprison our children. We need poison to poison the poison, to remember the sacred nature of intoxication, the green body of the young god." ~ Dale Pendell
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norm
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: gerryjarcia]
#14356874 - 04/26/11 06:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
yeah, i understand where you are coming from.
read anything by the late great Joseph Campbell (i'd say start with "The Power Of Myth"). he equates all of the scratching and scraping and running and spitting our species does with the myths we tell ourselves about what it means to "exist", what it means to be a human.
you live out your cultural and personal myth. we all do, every day.
learn a new myth, live a different story.
Looks like they have this book at the campus library! Thanks for the suggestion.
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danlennon3
LivingIsEasyWithEyesClosed.....



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: norm]
#14357031 - 04/26/11 06:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nature treated us good. But unfortunetely now, we arent doing te same for nature
-------------------- "Psychedelics should be used not to escape reality, but to embrace it"
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twighead
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: danlennon3]
#14357043 - 04/26/11 06:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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People are using two different definitions of nature in this thread: Nature is EVERYTHING period. Not just trees, not just wildlife, it includes us as well. Nature has allowed us favorable conditions to be created of itself but nature has no concept of good or bad
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: twighead]
#14357052 - 04/26/11 07:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I honestly think that artificially separating ourselves from "nature" is at the heart of our biggest problems as a species right now.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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twighead
mͯó



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Well what's you're definition of nature than? We can't separate ourselves from ourselves.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker


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i think our biggest problem as a society is not throwing imperfect babies off of cliffs like the spartans did.
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: twighead]
#14357063 - 04/26/11 07:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
twighead said: Well what's you're definition of nature than? We can't separate ourselves from ourselves.
Right... I agree.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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danlennon3
LivingIsEasyWithEyesClosed.....



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: twighead]
#14357074 - 04/26/11 07:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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you are definitely right that nature has no concept of good or bad... In a nutshell, throughout time our ancestors were just lucky!
-------------------- "Psychedelics should be used not to escape reality, but to embrace it"
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: danlennon3]
#14357082 - 04/26/11 07:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
danlennon3 said: you are definitely right that nature has no concept of good or bad... In a nutshell, throughout time our ancestors were just lucky!
One could argue that "natural selection" equals "rightness."
Unfortunately, people get the wrong idea when they hear this, and think they should use it to rationalize their faddish eugenics campaigns...
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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tk3
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i think if there is any evidence for the divine in human affairs its in our slow separation from the old natural standard. Never forget, living things are violent exploitative evil fuckers by human standards.
Its a wonder we have such standards. Though we may still be beasts in large part, some great rift between the before and hereafter seems to be taking place. literally new shapes and patterns are forming

The light is shining 24/7 and everyone is home.
I look forward to the day when the old rules of mortality, competition, and limited immediate views of what constitutes our time and space are broken.
/NWO supporter. http://soundcloud.com/kayimbo/something-something-remix-d
Edited by tk3 (04/26/11 07:20 PM)
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pwnasaurus
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: tk3]
#14357317 - 04/26/11 07:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet. OP, have you considered that you would very likely not be alive today if it weren't for our technology?
How many people wear glasses, that would not be able to see without them?
How many times have you had surgery, gone to the doctor, or taken an antibiotic?
People used to die from simple flus and things of that nature ALL THE TIME.
The life expectancy of humans is up to ~80 years from <40 years just a couple hundred year ago.
Some of the things we have may seem luxurious, but when it comes down to it, where do we draw the line? Should the person who needs a fake leg put in not get it so you can avoid the 'bullshit of day-to-day life'?
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker


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Posts: 8,393
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: pwnasaurus]
#14357329 - 04/26/11 07:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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well, judging by the fact that in the grand scheme of things nobody is actually important and nothing anybody does is important, i dont think it would matter if most of us werent alive right now.
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yogabunny
fancy cat



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: norm]
#14357423 - 04/26/11 08:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i dunno. it would appear that way sometimes. other times i think we're just exactly where we need to be experiencing exactly what we need to experience, that it's all part of our micro/macro collective evolution as a species. not that that should be an excuse to live mindlessly or apathetically. like, i don't think that should be an excuse for us to continue to deplete the earth of its resources, i hope we'll eventually find a way to make technology and industry more harmonious with the ecology of the earth & space.
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Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*



Registered: 06/02/09
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: pwnasaurus]
#14357497 - 04/26/11 08:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Should there be a army of sweat shop workers over in asian countries so you can enjoy that brand name shirt and flashy sneakers at a reasonable price?
Each lifestyle is equal in its merits.
EDT: that was to pwnasaurus
Edited by Bodhi of Ankou (04/26/11 08:48 PM)
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yogabunny
fancy cat



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14357587 - 04/26/11 08:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i have no idea what you just said, nor the point you're trying to make.
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Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: yogabunny]
#14357609 - 04/26/11 08:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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That was supposed to be directed at pwnasaurus
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yogabunny
fancy cat



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14357627 - 04/26/11 08:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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all aboard the reply 
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fbi365
Captain of the Sinking Ship



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: yogabunny]
#14357724 - 04/26/11 09:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nature is largely illegal in the USA
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gerryjarcia
biophiliac



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: norm]
#14357725 - 04/26/11 09:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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man, i think i've been a part of like three or four "conversations" just today revolving around the same ideas in totally separate threads and forums. humans, nature and how they are one or how they are separated must be on the hive mind (or maybe I AM the hive mind and i'm just projecting all of these avatars of myself onto the web to give myself something to talk about ).
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"We are all intoxicated. We were born into an insane asylum, a world crazy-making. We believe what we see and hear. The real myth is the myth of sanity, of rationality: it's a disease that is eating away at the earth. All the poisons flow from our denial. We deny madness, we forget our crimes, we dismember the corpse, we imprison our children. We need poison to poison the poison, to remember the sacred nature of intoxication, the green body of the young god." ~ Dale Pendell
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!


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Posts: 43,135
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: gerryjarcia]
#14357734 - 04/26/11 09:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
gerryjarcia said: man, i think i've been a part of like three or four "conversations" just today revolving around the same ideas in totally separate threads and forums. humans, nature and how they are one or how they are separated must be on the hive mind (or maybe I AM the hive mind and i'm just projecting all of these avatars of myself onto the web to give myself something to talk about ).
That Shroomery I-am-the-hive-mind idea seems to come to a lot of people around here, too..
It actually occurred to me once on an 8th of mushrooms... but I actually thought it was for real.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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propensity
۞̷ ̶۞̷ ̶



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: twighead]
#14357737 - 04/26/11 09:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
twighead said:
Quote:
realfuzzhead said: bro we are nature.
technology is nature.. we make a difference for convienence purposes but we are nature, just in another stage of evolution

I'm glad this was said in the first post
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۞̷̛̗̗͉͇̰̅͒ͯͩ̆ͯ̑͘ ̶̖̭ͧ͛ͬ͑ͣͦ̍ͧ͐͟͢ www.cactophage.com ۞̷̛̗̗͉͇̰̅͒ͯͩ̆ͯ̑͘ ̶̖̭ͧ͛ͬ͑ͣͦ̍ͧ͐͟͢ ̸ۨ͜۞̷̛̗̗͉͇̰̅͒ͯͩ̆ͯ̑͘ ̶̖̭ͧ͛ͬ͑ͣͦ̍ͧ͐͟Dolphins of Dank۞̷̛̗̗͉͇̰̅͒ͯͩ̆
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athedrivein61
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: propensity]
#14357779 - 04/26/11 09:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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This more traditional concept of natural things which can still be found today implies a distinction between the natural and the artificial, with the artificial being understood as that which has been brought into being by a human consciousness or a human mind. Depending on the particular context, the term "natural" might also be distinguished from the unnatural, the supernatural, or what is man-made
The word nature is derived from the Latin word natura, or "essential qualities, innate disposition"
I believe every living thing on this planet has some kind of balance to its natural environment and planet. Humans do not exhibit this balance what so ever.
I hear what youre sayin OP
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propensity
۞̷ ̶۞̷ ̶



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: athedrivein61]
#14357813 - 04/26/11 09:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Who are you to decide what the "innate disposition" is?
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۞̷̛̗̗͉͇̰̅͒ͯͩ̆ͯ̑͘ ̶̖̭ͧ͛ͬ͑ͣͦ̍ͧ͐͟͢ www.cactophage.com ۞̷̛̗̗͉͇̰̅͒ͯͩ̆ͯ̑͘ ̶̖̭ͧ͛ͬ͑ͣͦ̍ͧ͐͟͢ ̸ۨ͜۞̷̛̗̗͉͇̰̅͒ͯͩ̆ͯ̑͘ ̶̖̭ͧ͛ͬ͑ͣͦ̍ͧ͐͟Dolphins of Dank۞̷̛̗̗͉͇̰̅͒ͯͩ̆
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yogabunny
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: athedrivein61]
#14357823 - 04/26/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
athedrivein61 said: This more traditional concept of natural things which can still be found today implies a distinction between the natural and the artificial, with the artificial being understood as that which has been brought into being by a human consciousness or a human mind. Depending on the particular context, the term "natural" might also be distinguished from the unnatural, the supernatural, or what is man-made
The word nature is derived from the Latin word natura, or "essential qualities, innate disposition"
I believe every living thing on this planet has some kind of balance to its natural environment and planet. Humans do not exhibit this balance what so ever.
I hear what youre sayin OP 
so what are some things you consider artificial?
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owls
just let go!


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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: yogabunny]
#14357835 - 04/26/11 09:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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who gives a fuck. and the obvious answer is yess
-------------------- i love you ♥ you are beautiful! COME TOGETHER, JOIN THE PARTY!! "what beith a man if he doth not enjoy cannabis?"
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gerryjarcia
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: propensity]
#14357843 - 04/26/11 09:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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propensity, your llama sig is the fuckin bomb. crack up every time i see it
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"We are all intoxicated. We were born into an insane asylum, a world crazy-making. We believe what we see and hear. The real myth is the myth of sanity, of rationality: it's a disease that is eating away at the earth. All the poisons flow from our denial. We deny madness, we forget our crimes, we dismember the corpse, we imprison our children. We need poison to poison the poison, to remember the sacred nature of intoxication, the green body of the young god." ~ Dale Pendell
Edited by gerryjarcia (04/26/11 09:27 PM)
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pwnasaurus
Stranger



Registered: 07/16/08
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Loc: Canada
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Quote:
SamuelLJackson said: well, judging by the fact that in the grand scheme of things nobody is actually important and nothing anybody does is important, i dont think it would matter if most of us werent alive right now.
Matter to whom? It certainly matters to me that I'm alive.
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propensity
۞̷ ̶۞̷ ̶



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: gerryjarcia]
#14357857 - 04/26/11 09:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
gerryjarcia said: propensity, your llama sig is the fuckin bomb. crack up every time i see it 
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۞̷̛̗̗͉͇̰̅͒ͯͩ̆ͯ̑͘ ̶̖̭ͧ͛ͬ͑ͣͦ̍ͧ͐͟͢ www.cactophage.com ۞̷̛̗̗͉͇̰̅͒ͯͩ̆ͯ̑͘ ̶̖̭ͧ͛ͬ͑ͣͦ̍ͧ͐͟͢ ̸ۨ͜۞̷̛̗̗͉͇̰̅͒ͯͩ̆ͯ̑͘ ̶̖̭ͧ͛ͬ͑ͣͦ̍ͧ͐͟Dolphins of Dank۞̷̛̗̗͉͇̰̅͒ͯͩ̆
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker


Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,393
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: pwnasaurus]
#14357858 - 04/26/11 09:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
pwnasaurus said:
Quote:
SamuelLJackson said: well, judging by the fact that in the grand scheme of things nobody is actually important and nothing anybody does is important, i dont think it would matter if most of us werent alive right now.
Matter to who? It certainly matters to me that I'm alive.
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Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*



Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: pwnasaurus]
#14357863 - 04/26/11 09:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Temporarily
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The Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
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Loc:
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14357872 - 04/26/11 09:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Humans are inseparable from nature.
We can never "break free."
Even if we haul ass in our polished space mobiles, it's still nature exploring nature.
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dshow
Nomad



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: The Whale]
#14357907 - 04/26/11 09:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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EVOLUTION
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Bipolarbear
Stranger with candy



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: The Whale]
#14357914 - 04/26/11 09:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The basis of the G.I. Joe movie (no not that shitty one released recently, the cartoon movie) is that Cobra Commander is usurped by like subterranean beings and they wage war on Joe because they strayed too far from nature by investing their culture so heavily in technology. Damn good plot basis for a kid's movie.
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gerryjarcia
biophiliac



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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: yogabunny]
#14357923 - 04/26/11 09:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
yogabunny said:
Quote:
athedrivein61 said: This more traditional concept of natural things which can still be found today implies a distinction between the natural and the artificial, with the artificial being understood as that which has been brought into being by a human consciousness or a human mind. Depending on the particular context, the term "natural" might also be distinguished from the unnatural, the supernatural, or what is man-made
The word nature is derived from the Latin word natura, or "essential qualities, innate disposition"
I believe every living thing on this planet has some kind of balance to its natural environment and planet. Humans do not exhibit this balance what so ever.
I hear what youre sayin OP 
so what are some things you consider artificial?
the way i distinguish between "artificial" and "natural" isn't about what it was made of (since everything we make is obviously a product of our environment and thus a product of nature) or who it was made by.
i think of something that is "artificial" more along the lines of how long does the "artificial" product take to cycle back into the elements it was created from? I guess in these terms i'm really thinking of "artificial" as more of a time frame. i mean really we are talking about the most advanced alchemy to ever be practiced (at least that we know of). this device i am communicating to you on is fucking insane!
but there is always a price to be paid for any high alchemy we indulge in. we fuse precious metals and minerals together in such a way as to harness them for our purposes for, what some might argue, is an "unnatural" amount of time.
of course i'm only talking about our technologies here and there are other parts of nature that we hijack for our own purposes.
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"We are all intoxicated. We were born into an insane asylum, a world crazy-making. We believe what we see and hear. The real myth is the myth of sanity, of rationality: it's a disease that is eating away at the earth. All the poisons flow from our denial. We deny madness, we forget our crimes, we dismember the corpse, we imprison our children. We need poison to poison the poison, to remember the sacred nature of intoxication, the green body of the young god." ~ Dale Pendell
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PassiveAgressive
Sleepy-_-kinoko!




Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 924
Loc: Tueri honorare saltus
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: fbi365]
#14357929 - 04/26/11 09:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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fbi365 said: Nature is largely illegal in the USA
Yep.
Anyway, this is how we come to be what we are according to science. Agriculture seems to be, and continues to be the culprit. Only way out really is to run out of oil. Until then, mono-crop methods continue to dominate, much to my chagrin. Mass adoption of permaculture would do much to ease my heart, though for now it seems impracticle given the sheer volume of mouths to feed.
"Homo sapiens became the first species to stop living inside local ecosystems. All other species, including our ancestral hominid ancestors, all pre-agricultural humans, and remnant hunter-gatherer societies still extant exist as semi-isolated populations playing specific roles (i.e., have “niches”) in local ecosystems. This is not so with post-agricultural revolution humans, who in effect have stepped outside local ecosystems. Indeed, to develop agriculture is essentially to declare war on ecosystems - converting land to produce one or two food crops, with all other native plant species all now classified as unwanted “weeds” — and all but a few domesticated species of animals now considered as pests.
The total number of organisms within a species is limited by many factors-most crucial of which is the “carrying capacity” of the local ecosystem: given the energetic needs and energy-procuring adaptations of a given species, there are only so many squirrels, oak trees and hawks that can inhabit a given stretch of habitat. Agriculture had the effect of removing the natural local-ecosystem upper limit of the size of human populations. Though crops still fail regularly, and famine and disease still stalk the land, there is no doubt that agriculture in the main has had an enormous impact on human population size:"
From Actionbioscience.org
-------------------- (\___/) (= ‘.’=) (”)__(”) Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. - Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Re: Have humans strayed too far from nature? [Re: twighead]
#14358074 - 04/26/11 09:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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twighead said: Well what's you're definition of nature than? We can't separate ourselves from ourselves.
Lost feelings return
So now maybe I can learn
To stop the world of a lie
This time around
Are we, are we, are we ourselves
Are we, are we, are we ourselves
Because seen through these eyes
We lead a double life
No one would know
So check it out
Stepping out
Here I go
Are we, are we, are we ourselves
Are we ourselves
And do we really know
Most spirit returns
Now maybe we learned
To stop this whirl of a lie
To this earth we are bound I ask you
Are we, are we, are we ourselves
Are we ourselves
And do we really know
Ooh do we know
Are we ourselves-- The Fixx
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