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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#14352804 - 04/25/11 11:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yup.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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donteatasians


Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1,461
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14352832 - 04/25/11 11:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
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I'm actually suggesting that there is no necessary connection between the two, due to the fact that a person's brain will change as a result of their experience (which includes all their sensory perceptions) regardless of whether or not they have strong willpower/are very stubborn.
I wonder why people relapse then, with drugs and weight. I would think after getting clean/loosing weight they would have learned to avoid getting back to where they had been. So where does stubbornness and lack of willpower originate. It seems like those would be aspects of decision making skills and should change with new experiences. After accomplishing a goal I'd think that new connections would be made, that the new lifestyle is preferable, and the old one not worth the suffering.
How could someone with new/preferable experiences still be too stubborn to avoid going back to doing what they tried to change as if they haven't learned if it's not a result of poor neuroplasticity? Where does this behavior come from?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: donteatasians]
#14352872 - 04/26/11 12:08 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
donteatasians said:
Quote:
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I'm actually suggesting that there is no necessary connection between the two, due to the fact that a person's brain will change as a result of their experience (which includes all their sensory perceptions) regardless of whether or not they have strong willpower/are very stubborn.
I wonder why people relapse then, with drugs and weight. I would think after getting clean/loosing weight they would have learned to avoid getting back to where they had been.
Old habits, mayng, they're hard to break.
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donteatasians said: So where does stubbornness and lack of willpower originate.
The same place all other qualities of a person's temperament originate, probably.
Quote:
donteatasians said: It seems like those would be aspects of decision making skills and should change with new experiences. After accomplishing a goal I'd think that new connections would be made, that the new lifestyle is preferable, and the old one not worth the suffering.
The old connections are still there despite the fact that new ones have been made.
Quote:
donteatasians said: How could someone with new/preferable experiences still be too stubborn to avoid going back to doing what they tried to change as if they haven't learned if it's not a result of poor neuroplasticity? Where does this behavior come from? 
From the old connections.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#14353618 - 04/26/11 05:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said: Free will exists in every moment, however within a probable reality surface.
I disagree with this. There is the probably reality surface and then there is the decision. However there is no evidence that any area of that decision not based on external factors (assuming there is such a thing which there seems to be at least very little evidence for) is not simply random chance and it seems the simplest explanation that it would be.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Grapefruit]
#14353668 - 04/26/11 05:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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You seemed to have read more into that statement than I did. 
I thought he was just basically saying that free will exists within boundaries.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14353710 - 04/26/11 06:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
I thought he was just basically saying that free will exists within boundaries.
How so? As far as I can see it in the way I replied it does not exist at all.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Grapefruit]
#14353716 - 04/26/11 06:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Free will is the capacity to utilize decision-making processes--many creatures, including humans, definitely have that capacity.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14353724 - 04/26/11 06:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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How does free will correlate with the inborn decision making process? It's a process devoid of free will as far as I can see.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Grapefruit]
#14353730 - 04/26/11 06:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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That's all free will is IMO--how are you defining it?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14353733 - 04/26/11 06:32 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I really don't know how I'd define it because it seems totally incomprehensible to me that there is any independent source which it can arise from.
Quote:
2.The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
Something like this. Everthing is dependent on something else be it external factors or random chance decision making is not done by any independent agency.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Grapefruit]
#14353745 - 04/26/11 06:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Quote:
2.The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
I don't believe that power exists in humans--I also don't believe in fate or "divine will".
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14353781 - 04/26/11 06:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Sounds like we agree you are talking about freedom not in terms of environmental/random factors but in terms of there being no obvious point of control or oppression? (don't know if I make my meaning very clear there but if you get the gist. )
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Grapefruit]
#14353810 - 04/26/11 07:01 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'd like you to elaborate, if you will.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14353839 - 04/26/11 07:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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The ability of an animal to take any given action in any given situation although there is no way to take any independence over the decision. For example; a plant would not have this ability but an animal would because it has a higher flexibility and is possessed of intelligence.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Grapefruit]
#14353849 - 04/26/11 07:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think I see what you're saying, and pretty much agree.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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c0sm0nautt

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,303
Loc: The Astral Realm
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Grapefruit]
#14354326 - 04/26/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well yea, it is free will - but within probabilities. Someone who wakes up everyday and eats a banana will most likely rise the next day to eat a banana, but they still can and do have the choice to eat an apple.
I read this really interesting chapter in My Big TOE last night which made a lot of sense to me/=. Check out page 669 (Ch. 79). I hope it's not too confusing without the background of the rest of the book.
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