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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people...
#14352390 - 04/25/11 10:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Is this naive of me?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Greenvalley
PRS



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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14352410 - 04/25/11 10:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I agree with you, peoples brains are plastic. It is only based on the degree of how strongly you cling to ideas that determin how easily youll change or not change, and all ideas are subjective projections. Thats what I think
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Ganjabonga
Chief



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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14352421 - 04/25/11 10:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Everyone? Wouldnt say that, but people definitely have the innate ability to make a change for the better if they themselves want to. Living and learning for the better is a pretty simple concept but it is far out of grasp for many.
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Greenvalley
PRS



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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Ganjabonga]
#14352431 - 04/25/11 10:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Its all a choice in the end
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Ganjabonga]
#14352456 - 04/25/11 10:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Greenvalley said: I agree with you, peoples brains are plastic.
I'd be interested in the neuroplastic qualities of older people...
Quote:
Greenvalley said: It is only based on the degree of how strongly you cling to ideas that determin how easily youll change or not change, and all ideas are subjective projections. Thats what I think
Yeah, but can't some people cling so strongly to certain ideas that it is practically impossible for them to dump the said ideas?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Greenvalley
PRS



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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14352482 - 04/25/11 10:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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It may seem impossible to them, but it is ALWAYS a choice when it comes to beliefs/ideas/positionalities.
I have heard that there is new growth of brain cells all throughout life, always new paper to write on
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Greenvalley]
#14352511 - 04/25/11 10:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Greenvalley said: It may seem impossible to them, but it is ALWAYS a choice when it comes to beliefs/ideas/positionalities.
Some choices are very hard to make, though, even downright impossible. 
Quote:
Greenvalley said: I have heard that there is new growth of brain cells all throughout life, always new paper to write on
Hey, maybe there is hope! 
Neuroplasticity
Quote:
...plasticity exists from cradle to the grave, and that radical improvements in cognitive functioning - how we learn, think, perceive, and remember are possible even in the elderly.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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donteatasians


Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1,461
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Greenvalley]
#14352533 - 04/25/11 10:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think people can change at any age. However ther is a huge difference between can and will. Old folk probably don't have as much of a desire to change due to having gotten as far as they have in life the way they are. I think it's just a matter of not having any "good" reason to care to change.
can change = not naive will change =naive
--------------------
Edited by donteatasians (04/25/11 11:03 PM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: donteatasians]
#14352543 - 04/25/11 11:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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donteatasians
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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donteatasians


Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1,461
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14352563 - 04/25/11 11:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: donteatasians
Too fuckin stringy, need more meat. Yellow meat doesn't sound too tasty either.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes


Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: donteatasians]
#14352582 - 04/25/11 11:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
donteatasians said: can change = not naive will change =naive
It is interesting that plasticity can be "overruled" by stubbornness. Yet choice is just another brain function.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: donteatasians]
#14352586 - 04/25/11 11:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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donteatasians


Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1,461
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Sleepwalker]
#14352637 - 04/25/11 11:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Oweyervishice said:
Quote:
donteatasians said: can change = not naive will change =naive
It is interesting that plasticity can be "overruled" by stubbornness. Yet choice is just another brain function.
Overweight people can change their diet, many don't however. I also think that the longer a person continues a habit the less likely they are to change it. It's often easier to just keep on truckin the same way than try something that's uncertain.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes


Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: donteatasians]
#14352656 - 04/25/11 11:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Oh I agree. It just seems that if we knew more about how specifically willpower functions in the brain, we might include an unwillingness to change in our definitions of how plastic a person's brain is.
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donteatasians


Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1,461
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14352672 - 04/25/11 11:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:

You have a good point, however I'm not gonna try to eat something that could eat me with greater ease, too risky.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Sleepwalker]
#14352696 - 04/25/11 11:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not so sure that a person's willpower affects their brain's neuroplasticity to a significant degree--neuroplasticity refers to the ability of the brain to change as a result of one's experience, and a person's brain will change as a result of their experience (which includes all their sensory perceptions) regardless of their willpower.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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donteatasians


Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1,461
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Sleepwalker] 1
#14352704 - 04/25/11 11:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Oweyervishice said: Oh I agree. It just seems that if we knew more about how specifically willpower functions in the brain, we might include an unwillingness to change in our definitions of how plastic a person's brain is.
I think it's just a matter of incentive, they would probably be willing to change if the reward was more valuable to them than what they need to give up. It's hard to judge the value of a reward you've never expirienced though and know if it's worth the effort or sacrifice.
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donteatasians


Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1,461
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14352727 - 04/25/11 11:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: I'm not so sure that a person's willpower affects their brain's neuroplasticity to a significant degree--neuroplasticity refers to the ability of the brain to change as a result of one's experience, and a person's brain will change as a result of their experience (which includes all their sensory perceptions) regardless of their willpower.
So stubbornness is a symptom of poor neuroplasticity? This is essentially how well and how quickly a person can learn then, isn't it?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: donteatasians]
#14352756 - 04/25/11 11:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
donteatasians said:
Quote:
Poid said: I'm not so sure that a person's willpower affects their brain's neuroplasticity to a significant degree--neuroplasticity refers to the ability of the brain to change as a result of one's experience, and a person's brain will change as a result of their experience (which includes all their sensory perceptions) regardless of their willpower.
So stubbornness is a symptom of poor neuroplasticity?
I'm actually suggesting that there is no necessary connection between the two, due to the fact that a person's brain will change as a result of their experience (which includes all their sensory perceptions) regardless of whether or not they have strong willpower/are very stubborn. 
I have not read any evidence which suggests that there may be a necessary connection between the two, but I'd be very interested seeing some.
Quote:
donteatasians said: This is essentially how well and how quickly a person can learn then, isn't it?
Well, plasticity relates to learning by adding or removing connections, or adding cells, so I would think yes. 
However, I don't think this implies a necessary connection between stubbornness/willpower and neuroplasticity--a person may be stubborn and still be able to learn well, and a person may be not stubborn at all and be poor at learning. 
Also, a person may have strong willpower and have a low degree of neuroplasticity, and a person may have weak willpower and have a high degree of neuroplasticity.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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c0sm0nautt

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,303
Loc: The Astral Realm
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14352786 - 04/25/11 11:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Free will exists in every moment, however within a probable reality surface.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#14352804 - 04/25/11 11:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yup.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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donteatasians


Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1,461
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14352832 - 04/25/11 11:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm actually suggesting that there is no necessary connection between the two, due to the fact that a person's brain will change as a result of their experience (which includes all their sensory perceptions) regardless of whether or not they have strong willpower/are very stubborn.
I wonder why people relapse then, with drugs and weight. I would think after getting clean/loosing weight they would have learned to avoid getting back to where they had been. So where does stubbornness and lack of willpower originate. It seems like those would be aspects of decision making skills and should change with new experiences. After accomplishing a goal I'd think that new connections would be made, that the new lifestyle is preferable, and the old one not worth the suffering.
How could someone with new/preferable experiences still be too stubborn to avoid going back to doing what they tried to change as if they haven't learned if it's not a result of poor neuroplasticity? Where does this behavior come from?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: donteatasians]
#14352872 - 04/26/11 12:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
donteatasians said:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm actually suggesting that there is no necessary connection between the two, due to the fact that a person's brain will change as a result of their experience (which includes all their sensory perceptions) regardless of whether or not they have strong willpower/are very stubborn.
I wonder why people relapse then, with drugs and weight. I would think after getting clean/loosing weight they would have learned to avoid getting back to where they had been.
Old habits, mayng, they're hard to break.
Quote:
donteatasians said: So where does stubbornness and lack of willpower originate.
The same place all other qualities of a person's temperament originate, probably.
Quote:
donteatasians said: It seems like those would be aspects of decision making skills and should change with new experiences. After accomplishing a goal I'd think that new connections would be made, that the new lifestyle is preferable, and the old one not worth the suffering.
The old connections are still there despite the fact that new ones have been made.
Quote:
donteatasians said: How could someone with new/preferable experiences still be too stubborn to avoid going back to doing what they tried to change as if they haven't learned if it's not a result of poor neuroplasticity? Where does this behavior come from? 
From the old connections.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#14353618 - 04/26/11 05:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said: Free will exists in every moment, however within a probable reality surface.
I disagree with this. There is the probably reality surface and then there is the decision. However there is no evidence that any area of that decision not based on external factors (assuming there is such a thing which there seems to be at least very little evidence for) is not simply random chance and it seems the simplest explanation that it would be.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Grapefruit]
#14353668 - 04/26/11 05:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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You seemed to have read more into that statement than I did. 
I thought he was just basically saying that free will exists within boundaries.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14353710 - 04/26/11 06:17 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I thought he was just basically saying that free will exists within boundaries.
How so? As far as I can see it in the way I replied it does not exist at all.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Grapefruit]
#14353716 - 04/26/11 06:19 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Free will is the capacity to utilize decision-making processes--many creatures, including humans, definitely have that capacity.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14353724 - 04/26/11 06:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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How does free will correlate with the inborn decision making process? It's a process devoid of free will as far as I can see.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Grapefruit]
#14353730 - 04/26/11 06:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's all free will is IMO--how are you defining it?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14353733 - 04/26/11 06:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I really don't know how I'd define it because it seems totally incomprehensible to me that there is any independent source which it can arise from.
Quote:
2.The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
Something like this. Everthing is dependent on something else be it external factors or random chance decision making is not done by any independent agency.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Grapefruit]
#14353745 - 04/26/11 06:37 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Quote:
2.The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
I don't believe that power exists in humans--I also don't believe in fate or "divine will".
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14353781 - 04/26/11 06:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sounds like we agree you are talking about freedom not in terms of environmental/random factors but in terms of there being no obvious point of control or oppression? (don't know if I make my meaning very clear there but if you get the gist. )
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Grapefruit]
#14353810 - 04/26/11 07:01 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'd like you to elaborate, if you will.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Poid]
#14353839 - 04/26/11 07:10 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The ability of an animal to take any given action in any given situation although there is no way to take any independence over the decision. For example; a plant would not have this ability but an animal would because it has a higher flexibility and is possessed of intelligence.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Grapefruit]
#14353849 - 04/26/11 07:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think I see what you're saying, and pretty much agree.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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c0sm0nautt

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,303
Loc: The Astral Realm
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Re: I sort of believe that everyone can change, even older people... [Re: Grapefruit]
#14354326 - 04/26/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well yea, it is free will - but within probabilities. Someone who wakes up everyday and eats a banana will most likely rise the next day to eat a banana, but they still can and do have the choice to eat an apple.
I read this really interesting chapter in My Big TOE last night which made a lot of sense to me/=. Check out page 669 (Ch. 79). I hope it's not too confusing without the background of the rest of the book.
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