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OfflineEpigallo
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Blueprint for a revolution: find the others.
    #14342686 - 04/24/11 09:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think the dynamics of underground movements, like the spread of lsd, could be a potentially interesting topic from an intellectual standpoint. Members of group A (e.g. cops, concerned or misinformed citizens) want to expose members of group B (e.g. psychedelic users). Members of group B want to find each other, without revealing themselves to group A.

In order for that to work, group B must reveal, yet not reveal their identity.

My question: is it possible for a screening mechanism to exist that is sophisticated enough so that group B members only end up revealing themselves to group B members, 100% of the time? What would it involve?

Robert Heinlein slightly elucidated the dynamics of an underground revolution in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, although not very clearly in my opinion. A group of moon dwellers were planning to overthrow their government. The goal was to find all the others who were secretly wishing to end their oppression. When someone entered into the movement, they became connected not just to their immediate contact, but a whole network of individuals in the movement. Before someone was accepted, several people in the movement had to vouch for them. And there were mechanisms set into place in case someone's allegiance to the movement was revealed, so that one person could not give away too much information about the individuals in the group and their place in it -- although that is the part I don't remember being explained too clearly.

What is your blueprint for a revolution? How would the network of individuals in the movement be structured? What would be the screening mechanism for letting someone in? Remember, you cannot even let a person know you are interviewing them to join your cause until your are absolutely sure they are a "group B" person...

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Blueprint for a revolution: find the others. [Re: Epigallo]
    #14342907 - 04/24/11 10:32 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

what do u think :pm: r for?...

oooph... ive said too much :lipsrsealed:


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Blueprint for a revolution: find the others. [Re: quinn]
    #14343008 - 04/24/11 10:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You aren't funny IMO.

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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Blueprint for a revolution: find the others. [Re: Epigallo]
    #14343105 - 04/24/11 11:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Why does a revolution have to built in the shadows ?

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Blueprint for a revolution: find the others. [Re: Brainstem]
    #14343160 - 04/24/11 11:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Because so long as the dissenting group is less powerful than the mainstream population, its individuals may be persecuted.

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Offlinequomaya2
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Re: Blueprint for a revolution: find the others. [Re: Epigallo]
    #14343184 - 04/24/11 11:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think that in addition to whatever technique you'd use to only get people from Group B in the movement, departmentalization should also be used. This is when most of the members of the revolution only know enough information to carry out their assigned duties. The US used this in making an atomic bomb (maybe the one they dropped on Hiroshima? I forget), so that the thousands of workers working on the bomb had no idea that what they were making was an atomic bomb. It was only the small group that assembled it that knew. THis would prevent one person from revealing all of the secrets of the revolution if they defected or were interrogated.

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OfflineOpenQwerty
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Re: Blueprint for a revolution: find the others. [Re: Epigallo]
    #14343306 - 04/24/11 12:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It depends on what is the kind of underground movements that you want to build.

I think the idea behind the book by Heinlein, that you mentioned, was the "cells" anarchist or "terrorist", in complete secrecy. A group of three elements A, B, C, is the basis of the structure. Each one, will recruit  (at best)  other three. A  recruits A1, A2, A3, which necessarily know A, and know each other. The network watch, but evry single newbie should know only  A (for not to threaten, in case of treason, B, C, ). The newbie should not be aware to be watched by B and C. But B and C should vote for to make A1, A2, A3 become members. When they become members, A1 will recluits 1A, 2A, 3A. And A2, A3 will watch them, and vote for to make them become members. The structure is expanded in this way. The "trump card" of the revolutionaries, in Heinlein's book, is the complicity of the computer, through which pass all communications (moreover the computer can watch evry member). Through it, they could make communications cross the structure, which is not necessarily passed to all levels of the group. In such  structure, even a high number of  betrayals, is compensated by the little damage that each can do (any member can denounce, in the worst of hypotesis, 3 "comrades" and 6 newbies, if he didnt reclute any). This should lead to long-term survival of the group, but at the price that (whitout "Mike" -the computer of the Henlein's book) any actions, for  to be implemented, must pass through all levels of the structure (resulting in time consuming and more likely to be known by the authorities). Moreover, it cannot work if you want any democracy inside the group. How to organize a discussion -inside a structure like this ? No way. One knows 2 "comrades" and 3 newbies. But cannot make them to meet all togheter. Anyway, if all you need is a long-term surviving structur -it can be what you need. In fact, we might as well leave that A is solely responsible for the recruitment of A1, A2, A3. In this way, if  B or C  betrayed, they could not denounce A1, A2, or  A3, that B or C  do not know. Maybe, it's better if A1, A2, A3, don't know each other. In this case, if one of them is a traitor, he cannot denounce the other 2.  No need for sophisticated screening mechanism for letting someone in. It's buid to resist even whit a high number of denunciations and betrayals.


It 's a case of "the structure is determined by the function"...

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Blueprint for a revolution: find the others. [Re: OpenQwerty]
    #14344283 - 04/24/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for that recap. It is definitely a top-down model, isn't it. Although I don't really understand how Mike was the trump card -- was it just that he let instructions be passed down to lower levels without revealing who they were coming from?

I wonder what other structures there are. While Heinlein's model is good for handing down commands, like you said, it isn't so good for peer-to-peer exchange.

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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Blueprint for a revolution: find the others. [Re: Epigallo]
    #14344443 - 04/24/11 05:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How about the Tyler Durden franchise approach ?

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Offlineinfectedstyle
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Re: Blueprint for a revolution: find the others. [Re: Brainstem]
    #14345827 - 04/24/11 09:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The way to start such revolution is to reach minds from across a distance in a safe position.
Anonymous spread is useful but can only reach so far if the memes are not spread by every participant.
You can make music and if a lot of people listen to your songs you can almost directly influence minds.
Speaking in codewords might keep you hidden but you won't be able to reach anyone that hasn't learned these codewords beforehand.
You can encode these codewords into all your albums but then it requires quite some dedication to learn these if at all.

The way i see it done is for someone to be in a position of power and respect amongst the entire population and be pretty out in the open with it so people ask questions when they suddenly disappear. People like John F. Kennedy,Rober F.Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Michael Jackson, Tupac, Bob Marley.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Blueprint for a revolution: find the others. [Re: Epigallo]
    #14347074 - 04/25/11 01:13 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
You aren't funny IMO.


:lol:


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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: Blueprint for a revolution: find the others. [Re: Poid]
    #14347142 - 04/25/11 01:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

in gangs, they make a new recruit kill someone to make sure they are devoted as well as having leverage on them if they wanted to defect. i think you would need to have some sort of insurance like this to have a secure underground society the problem with that particular one for gangs is that the law will forgive murder in order to get information.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Blueprint for a revolution: find the others. [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14347183 - 04/25/11 01:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

bradley said:
You aren't funny IMO.


:lol:



humph :snub:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Blueprint for a revolution: find the others. [Re: quinn]
    #14347287 - 04/25/11 02:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I just thought that was funny--I think you're funny sometimes. :smile:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Blueprint for a revolution: find the others. [Re: infectedstyle]
    #14347721 - 04/25/11 06:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How about a graduation process like the masonic orders. Where the newest member is only taught and involved in things that are only conducive to the final goal, but not a betrayal of it. Then a third group within the first two groups to watch and oversee the process ?

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