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Offlinezoomfan
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The observer is the observed
    #14340940 - 04/23/11 10:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This statement imo is one of the most simple, concise statements regarding the problem of self and duality. it feels like we are an observer, observing the world, including our thoughts sensations etc. Everything that exists, other than hypothetically, is included in the observed category. Even the hypothesizing itself i suppose would be included in this category, so really anything you can experience in any way is observed.

This doesnt leave much room for an observer, if it could be experienced or imagined it would be considered to be in the observed category.
If even hypothetically it was not observable in any way it would have no characteristics therefore no existence, thus the observer is the observed, there is only the observed. everything is consciousness including our hypothesis about the world as it really is, what we call the self, and anything else you can see or think of. opinions?


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: zoomfan]
    #14341020 - 04/23/11 10:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

oh i agree :satansmoking:



but what about...

if i am observing you thinking, seeing, hearing, etc.

but i cannot observe what you are observing.

so you become an 'observer' to me...

given that i am observing you observing, i see that i am an 'observer', to you.


does this change anything?


--------------------
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Edited by quinn (04/23/11 10:39 PM)


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: quinn]
    #14342902 - 04/24/11 10:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I also agree (sorta explained my whole outlook here).

And you don't observe me seeing, thinking, or hearing. You only interpret experiences in that way. I don't like solipsism, though. There are other options. Check out this book (the description, not the actual book itself, 'cause it costs $300), for instance: http://www.springer.com/philosophy/book/978-1-4020-2999-8



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OnlineKickleM
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: NetDiver]
    #14343664 - 04/24/11 02:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

opinions?

You're not going to jump off a building just because you suspect it only happens in consciousness and doesn't have any external validity to it, are ya?

My opinion is that we like to convince ourselves that it is all consciousness so we don't have to admit to the reality of where we find ourselves.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Kickle]
    #14343676 - 04/24/11 02:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Saying everything is consciousness does not mean that you can control reality. Quite the opposite, in fact. If consciousness is everything, it's also nothing special. Every part is equal. The word "consciousness" is just another term for the physical world.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: NetDiver]
    #14343693 - 04/24/11 02:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I understand what you're getting at but I feel it's sort of taking the term out of context. The physical world is chaos and pattern which is what is in operation with everything as a unitary movement. You can call it "consciousness" or "intelligence" but that's really just a metaphor and can lead to confusion whereupon people start talking of the "one soul" etc.


--------------------
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OnlineKickleM
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: NetDiver]
    #14343737 - 04/24/11 02:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Saying everything is consciousness does not mean that you can control reality. Quite the opposite, in fact. If consciousness is everything, it's also nothing special. Every part is equal. The word "consciousness" is just another term for the physical world.




if every part were equal, stepping in front of a moving car would be equal to not stepping in front of a moving car. Are these things actually equal? If so, why do we consistently not step in front of a moving car? Seems there is an inequality of values to me.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Kickle]
    #14344296 - 04/24/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How does that make any sense or relate at all to what I said? Both you and the car are made of the same stuff so of course it will affect you. That's the whole point. What happens when a car strikes you can be described in material ways, as well as your reaction to it (pain is an evolutionary response to certain stimuli).

The observer = the observed is as much a materialistic sentiment as an idealist one. It's monistic and entirely compatible with physicalism.


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: NetDiver]
    #14344349 - 04/24/11 04:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I guess I don't have a clue what you are suggesting. If there is no difference in action regardless of what viewpoint you take, then making statements such as "Every part is equal." are just thought experiments with no grounding in reality. I can also think that I'm a blimp dreaming he's a human, but it doesn't mean much of anything if it's only a thought.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Kickle]
    #14344620 - 04/24/11 05:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"i am" is observed.

by who?!?!?!?!?!


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: g00ru]
    #14345215 - 04/24/11 08:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

semantics are sometimes difficult to work with, for me anyway. my point is that the standing paradigm seems to be that myself and the world are fundementally separate, i am the observer, and the world is the observed. my point was that this is not the case, there is no observer, there is just the observed. for there to be an observer, it implies something outside of the field of the observed.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: g00ru]
    #14345266 - 04/24/11 08:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

by noone. it's just observed.

Quote:


If there is no difference in action regardless of what viewpoint




i think that is the point. 'consciousness' does not define anything so ppl who say everything is just their own consciousness might as well be saying 'everything...' :shrug:


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: zoomfan]
    #14346194 - 04/24/11 10:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
my point is that the standing paradigm seems to be that myself and the world are fundementally separate, i am the observer, and the world is the observed. my point was that this is not the case, there is no observer, there is just the observed. for there to be an observer, it implies something outside of the field of the observed.




How do you think we should define the differences that exist, then? For example, say I take a sheet of paper and slide it across my friend's finger. When I watch this event happen "out there", I do not feel the pain from the paper cut. If I then apply this same paper cut to my own finger, I do experience pain. Doesn't this suggest that there is separation, materially, between the observation that causes pain and the observation that does not, even though the same paper cut is happening? And isn't this material separation the foundation of the paradigm?

That there are difference that exist materially and lead to different experiences and different observations.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Kickle]
    #14346981 - 04/25/11 12:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

good point, to clarify i am not saying there is no separation between this body and the next, there clearly is. what i am saying, is that the internal dichotomy of me and the world is not a reality. in traditional thought, i observe my body, thoughts etc. everything that i could call my self is observable, yet i call it my body, my thoughts etc the observers thoughts the observers body.

it feels like i am the observer of the body and the thoughts, implying i am some strange compilation of mind body and something beyond them both which is able to observe and control them. what i am arguing is that there is no dichotomy in reality, it is just the world rather than me and the world. everything is governed by the same forces this body and the world alike. the idea that i can control this body but not the next is wrong but not because i can control everything but nothing.

the idea of I as a free agent free from the forces acting on the rest of nature is illogical and imo not the case im basically just reiterating here but sometimes things on this level are very tricky to get a grasp on.

i find my point is often missed and so i try to keep it as simple as possible, the fact is most of the world thinks, whether they know it or not, that what they are is a free agent separate in some strange way from the forces of nature, which is just not the case. so to clarify again i am not denying the independence of one body from the next, just denying that the human being is a free agent exempt from the forces of nature.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: zoomfan]
    #14347047 - 04/25/11 01:06 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
the idea of I as a free agent free from the forces acting on the rest of nature is illogical and imo not the case...


True, but that isn't what free will is.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
i find my point is often missed and so i try to keep it as simple as possible, the fact is most of the world thinks, whether they know it or not, that what they are is a free agent separate in some strange way from the forces of nature, which is just not the case.


Yeah, you obviously know most people's thoughts. :lol:


Quote:

zoomfan said:
so to clarify again i am not denying the independence of one body from the next, just denying that the human being is a free agent exempt from the forces of nature.


Being a free agent does not mean that you are free from the forces acting on the rest of nature. :imslow:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14347386 - 04/25/11 03:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

poid said

being a free agent doesnt mean that you are free from the forces of nature


what does it mean then? id rather you explain why im wrong rather than you just saying im wrong.

what is the agent free from if not the forces of nature? things are either determined by the forces of nature ....or not. randomness is still a force of nature hypothetically, even if the universe was random the human being would not be able to control what the randomness did so how is that not determinism for all intents and purposes in the debate of whether a human being is making a free choice. there is no agent at all in.

the human being is determined by whatever force created it which is not the human being. do you know what thought your going to have next? can you control what thought youll have next? thoughts are what create decisions and if we dont decide what thoughts we have how can that be free choice?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: zoomfan]
    #14347432 - 04/25/11 03:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
what is the agent free from if not the forces of nature?


Being a free agent doesn't mean you're free from anything, it means that you are able to make choices to a limited extent.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
randomness is still a force of nature hypothetically...


Hypothetically. :lol:


Quote:

zoomfan said:
...even if the universe was random the human being would not be able to control what the randomness did so how is that not determinism for all intents and purposes in the debate of whether a human being is making a free choice. there is no agent at all in.


Having free will does not mean that you are free to make absolutely any choice you want--we are limited by what our bodies can do, but are free to make choices within that limit. We are also limited by the laws of gravity, but we are free to make choices within that limit.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
can you control what thought youll have next?


Yes.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
thoughts are what create decisions and if we dont decide what thoughts we have how can that be free choice?


Although some thoughts may be random, this doesn't mean that we are completely unable to control our thoughts.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14347821 - 04/25/11 07:39 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So all life equates to is God playing peek-a-boo with himself ? :levitate:


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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Brainstem]
    #14347829 - 04/25/11 07:44 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14347835 - 04/25/11 07:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's like I finally understand. :wink:


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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Brainstem]
    #14347836 - 04/25/11 07:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:grin:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: zoomfan]
    #14348012 - 04/25/11 08:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
good point, to clarify i am not saying there is no separation between this body and the next, there clearly is. what i am saying, is that the internal dichotomy of me and the world is not a reality. in traditional thought, i observe my body, thoughts etc. everything that i could call my self is observable, yet i call it my body, my thoughts etc the observers thoughts the observers body.

it feels like i am the observer of the body and the thoughts, implying i am some strange compilation of mind body and something beyond them both which is able to observe and control them. what i am arguing is that there is no dichotomy in reality, it is just the world rather than me and the world. everything is governed by the same forces this body and the world alike. the idea that i can control this body but not the next is wrong but not because i can control everything but nothing.

the idea of I as a free agent free from the forces acting on the rest of nature is illogical and imo not the case im basically just reiterating here but sometimes things on this level are very tricky to get a grasp on.

i find my point is often missed and so i try to keep it as simple as possible, the fact is most of the world thinks, whether they know it or not, that what they are is a free agent separate in some strange way from the forces of nature, which is just not the case. so to clarify again i am not denying the independence of one body from the next, just denying that the human being is a free agent exempt from the forces of nature.




I'm still left wondering how your view would differentiate phenomena that happen to you and phenomena that happen to me. If there is no inner world dichotomous to an outer world, how do the differences aforementioned in the experience of a paper cut, exist?

I agree with the majority of what you're saying.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14348686 - 04/25/11 11:40 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

zoomfan said:
what is the agent free from if not the forces of nature?


Being a free agent doesn't mean you're free from anything, it means that you are able to make choices to a limited extent.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
randomness is still a force of nature hypothetically...


Hypothetically. :lol:


Quote:

zoomfan said:
...even if the universe was random the human being would not be able to control what the randomness did so how is that not determinism for all intents and purposes in the debate of whether a human being is making a free choice. there is no agent at all in.


Having free will does not mean that you are free to make absolutely any choice you want--we are limited by what our bodies can do, but are free to make choices within that limit. We are also limited by the laws of gravity, but we are free to make choices within that limit.

how is it a free choice though if it is determined by forces which are unavailable to the "self" you dont know what thought your going to have until you have it.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
can you control what thought youll have next?


Yes.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
thoughts are what create decisions and if we dont decide what thoughts we have how can that be free choice?


Although some thoughts may be random, this doesn't mean that we are completely unable to control our thoughts.




your oversimplifying a very complex problem, say one thought overrides another and you call it a free choice, how did you freely choose for that first thought to exist, you didnt! so its not a free choice no matter what. thats all im concerned with, you can call it relative freedom or whatever you want but it has no real meaning. i understand the concept of freedom within boundaries but the fact is even that is determined by a process beyond the reach of the "self".

if you could explain to me how the self is not itself completely determined by other natural forces i would be amazed. where does it come from then? i mean were talking about something from nothing here thats what your basically saying, that the self.. can somehow generate its own thoughts from nothing that the self is exempt from the whole cause effect relationship. and not only exempt, but it is the very beginning of the cause effect relationship and can generate at will, whatever thought it wants. there is always a previous cause to any effect and the "self" can not influence a cause to which it is an effect.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: zoomfan]
    #14349890 - 04/25/11 04:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
...say one thought overrides another....


What do you mean by that? How does a thought "override" another thought? :undecided:


Quote:

zoomfan said:
...and you call it a free choice, how did you freely choose for that first thought to exist, you didnt!


Oh great, at least you're supporting your claims with evidence. :rolleyes:


Quote:

zoomfan said:
so its not a free choice no matter what. thats all im concerned with, you can call it relative freedom or whatever you want but it has no real meaning. i understand the concept of freedom within boundaries but the fact is even that is determined by a process beyond the reach of the "self".


Proof?


Quote:

zoomfan said:
if you could explain to me how the self is not itself completely determined by other natural forces i would be amazed.


Free will IMO is the capacity to utilize decision-making processes--nothing more, nothing less.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
where does it come from then? i mean were talking about something from nothing here thats what your basically saying, that the self.. can somehow generate its own thoughts from nothing that the self is exempt from the whole cause effect relationship.


What cause-effect relationship? It generates thoughts within boundaries, and from past experiences--thoughts don't come from nothing.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
and not only exempt, but it is the very beginning of the cause effect relationship and can generate at will, whatever thought it wants.


I can generate whatever thought I can. :grin:


Quote:

zoomfan said:
there is always a previous cause to any effect...


Radioactive decay may be uncaused.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
and the "self" can not influence a cause to which it is an effect.


Proof?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (04/25/11 04:20 PM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14349949 - 04/25/11 04:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

the bizzle said:
one day i learned to stop debating with poids. Then it sucked me back in and i thought it mattered

:seriousbusiness:


some things simply cannot be explained to those who have no real point of reference for it. For some reason, it feels important to try, but one thing I know about all this is that you don't make it happen by trying to be like somebody else :satansmoking:


:braindamage:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14349993 - 04/25/11 04:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: the bizzle]
    #14350117 - 04/25/11 04:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

poid thats all my opinion i admit but your not really disputing what im saying with an equivalent alternative.

poid says " free will imo is the capacity to use decision making processes nothing more nothing less "

capacity for what to utilize decision making processes? i dont deny that the brain has decision making processes but i also think the brain is an automatic machine of which the "self" is an impotent byproduct.

your clearly an intelligent guy, just directly adress that with your equivalent argument.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Kickle]
    #14350256 - 04/25/11 05:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I'm still left wondering how your view would differentiate phenomena that happen to you and phenomena that happen to me. If there is no inner world dichotomous to an outer world, how do the differences aforementioned in the experience of a paper cut, exist?




This is really good question, and it's related to personal identity. There are two main schools of thought on this that are compatible with monism, as far as I can tell. They're called "Empty individualism" and "Open individualism."

Basically, empty individualism (the view posited by people like Derek Parfit, Daniel Dennett, and even Buddha) says that that question is meaningless, because there is no fixed "you" and "me" for experiences to happen to in the first place. What is the difference between an experience that happened to a younger you, and an experience that happened to somebody else? You can't have an exactly accurate memory of the way a sense perception felt- it's as if your past experiences were had by different people, and soon your current experiences will also become memories whose accuracy you can't exactly verify. What you call your "self" is always changing. There's no fixed core or essence (or "soul").

The other view, "open individualism," (proposed by people like Daniel Kolak, Freeman Dyson, and Erwin Schrödinger) is sort of the opposite. Instead of being nobody, you are everybody. There is one "consciousness" that, for lack of a better phrase, "takes turns" being everybody. I can't explain this one in as much depth because I haven't read as much on it, but it seems interesting.

Currently I'm reading Kolak's book I Am You, which supports Open Individualism (PM me if you're interested in the link). It seems like a mystical, unsupportable sort of viewpoint at first glance, but the author is a pretty prominent cognitive scientist, and the book looks detailed and thorough, so we'll see.


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Kickle]
    #14350440 - 04/25/11 05:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:quote]

I'm still left wondering how your view would differentiate phenomena that happen to you and phenomena that happen to me. If there is no inner world dichotomous to an outer world, how do the differences aforementioned in the experience of a paper cut, exist?

I agree with the majority of what you're saying.




to answer this ill have to explain my idea of qualia, i guess its called. I am arguing that qualia is a relationship, stimuli and sensor come together to create sensation, experience, not to any "one" or agent, just sensation, which is consciousness. if this body is cut by a piece of paper, the sensation of being cut by paper exists etc. in this view the observer is non existent, but the sensation still exists. therefore when i cut myself the sensation arises and is apparent in and of itself without the need for an observer. a memory may be produced and then a thought about "me observing it" but thats just an easy way to explain it.

pain is just an electrical impulse to the brain folowed by a chemical reaction,from what i understand. Without memory it would be lost forever. without memory it would just be a sensation caused by the stimulus and sensor. there is no need for an observer in the explanation of sensation imo.


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Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: zoomfan]
    #14350478 - 04/25/11 05:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:

Qualia = the physical world, and vice-versa. There is no subject, and no object, there is only the sense of observation (or, as Buddhists say, "thoughts arise without a thinker.")

IMO of course.


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: zoomfan]
    #14351056 - 04/25/11 07:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
Quote:

Kickle said:

I'm still left wondering how your view would differentiate phenomena that happen to you and phenomena that happen to me. If there is no inner world dichotomous to an outer world, how do the differences aforementioned in the experience of a paper cut, exist?

I agree with the majority of what you're saying.




to answer this ill have to explain my idea of qualia, i guess its called. I am arguing that qualia is a relationship, stimuli and sensor come together to create sensation, experience, not to any "one" or agent, just sensation, which is consciousness. if this body is cut by a piece of paper, the sensation of being cut by paper exists etc. in this view the observer is non existent, but the sensation still exists. therefore when i cut myself the sensation arises and is apparent in and of itself without the need for an observer. a memory may be produced and then a thought about "me observing it" but thats just an easy way to explain it.

pain is just an electrical impulse to the brain folowed by a chemical reaction,from what i understand. Without memory it would be lost forever. without memory it would just be a sensation caused by the stimulus and sensor. there is no need for an observer in the explanation of sensation imo.




But the chemical reactions of my brain when I get cut are nearly the same as the chemical reactions of your brain when you get cut. Yet only in one of these two cases do I experience these chemical reactions. In only one of these cases are the chemicals that exist, experienced. How does this suggest that there is not an observer of an exclusive body and that it is instead consciousness unfolding to no one in particular?

I can consider it a possibility, but I see nothing to suggest it has any validity. I also see reasons for people to provide it with a subjective validity, as it creates less attachment to the happenings of the world. The world is a troubling place and the less we hold to it the less it hurts. Allowing things to happen is freeing, even if potentially misguided.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineNightingale
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Kickle]
    #14352703 - 04/25/11 11:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

zoomfan said:
Quote:

Kickle said:

I'm still left wondering how your view would differentiate phenomena that happen to you and phenomena that happen to me. If there is no inner world dichotomous to an outer world, how do the differences aforementioned in the experience of a paper cut, exist?

I agree with the majority of what you're saying.




to answer this ill have to explain my idea of qualia, i guess its called. I am arguing that qualia is a relationship, stimuli and sensor come together to create sensation, experience, not to any "one" or agent, just sensation, which is consciousness. if this body is cut by a piece of paper, the sensation of being cut by paper exists etc. in this view the observer is non existent, but the sensation still exists. therefore when i cut myself the sensation arises and is apparent in and of itself without the need for an observer. a memory may be produced and then a thought about "me observing it" but thats just an easy way to explain it.

pain is just an electrical impulse to the brain folowed by a chemical reaction,from what i understand. Without memory it would be lost forever. without memory it would just be a sensation caused by the stimulus and sensor. there is no need for an observer in the explanation of sensation imo.




But the chemical reactions of my brain when I get cut are nearly the same as the chemical reactions of your brain when you get cut. Yet only in one of these two cases do I experience these chemical reactions. In only one of these cases are the chemicals that exist, experienced. How does this suggest that there is not an observer of an exclusive body and that it is instead consciousness unfolding to no one in particular?

I can consider it a possibility, but I see nothing to suggest it has any validity. I also see reasons for people to provide it with a subjective validity, as it creates less attachment to the happenings of the world. The world is a troubling place and the less we hold to it the less it hurts. Allowing things to happen is freeing, even if potentially misguided.




If I understand, you're talking about the sharing of subjective bodiliy experiences. The body is the sense organ through which we experience the world. It's also what we use to interpret those experiences and to store memories of them. A non-dualistic philosophy suggests that all things are an expression of universal consciousness, and that this is the same consciousness (awareness) that we all share. As a bodily function, the interpretation of pain is limited to your body alone because consciousness (A.K.A. the observer) is unaffected by it. Yes, you will say "ouch" and have memories of pain, but the "I" in "I just cut my finger" is not consciousness, but ego mascarading as consciousness. As a result, your finger pain is observed by the universal consciousness, but not by anyone else since "I" is restricted to one's own body.

Savvy?


--------------------
Step 1: Look up at the stars
Step 2: Realize they must be Gods
Step 3: Know that you're the same


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Nightingale]
    #14352782 - 04/25/11 11:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Nightingale said:
The body is the sense organ through which we experience the world.


Not true, only portions of our body are sensory organs:

Sensory system
Quote:

A sensory system is a part of the nervous system responsible for processing sensory information. A sensory system consists of sensory receptors, neural pathways, and parts of the brain involved in sensory perception. Commonly recognized sensory systems are those for vision, hearing, somatic sensation (touch), taste and olfaction (smell). In short, senses are transducers from the physical world to the realm of the mind.




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNightingale
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14352817 - 04/25/11 11:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Nightingale said:
The body is the sense organ through which we experience the world.


Not true, only portions of our body are sensory organs:

Sensory system
Quote:

A sensory system is a part of the nervous system responsible for processing sensory information. A sensory system consists of sensory receptors, neural pathways, and parts of the brain involved in sensory perception. Commonly recognized sensory systems are those for vision, hearing, somatic sensation (touch), taste and olfaction (smell). In short, senses are transducers from the physical world to the realm of the mind.







Thank you for the clarification. I stand by what I said.


--------------------
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Step 2: Realize they must be Gods
Step 3: Know that you're the same


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Nightingale]
    #14352830 - 04/25/11 11:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:, OK...


The body is not a sensory organ, not every part of the body is part of the nervous system. :imslow:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNightingale
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14352927 - 04/26/11 12:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
:lol:, OK...


The body is not a sensory organ, not every part of the body is part of the nervous system. :imslow:




Allow me to clarify. The body is the locus of sensation, and interpretation thereof. I understand what you're saying about the 5 senses, and what I'm saying is that sensation goes beyond "the senses". For example, interpretation is certainly a sensation, but is not one of the conventional senses.
I'd also like to point out that even though most of the body isn't a part of the nervous system, it pervades the body. This is why I can feel how smooth my coffee cup is, despite the fact that my finger is not a part of the nervous system.
Does that clear up the misunderstanding?


--------------------
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Step 2: Realize they must be Gods
Step 3: Know that you're the same


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Nightingale]
    #14352949 - 04/26/11 12:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Nightingale said:
Does that clear up the misunderstanding?


Yes, a bit.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNightingale
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14353016 - 04/26/11 12:43 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Nightingale said:
Does that clear up the misunderstanding?


Yes, a bit.



Is there something I could clear up?


--------------------
Step 1: Look up at the stars
Step 2: Realize they must be Gods
Step 3: Know that you're the same


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Nightingale]
    #14353036 - 04/26/11 12:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well there's at least one thing you said there that I disagree with, but I pretty much get what you're saying.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNightingale
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14353061 - 04/26/11 12:56 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Well there's at least one thing you said there that I disagree with, but I pretty much get what you're saying.




:fonz:


--------------------
Step 1: Look up at the stars
Step 2: Realize they must be Gods
Step 3: Know that you're the same


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The observer is the observed [Re: zoomfan]
    #14354549 - 04/26/11 11:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
This statement imo is one of the most simple, concise statements regarding the problem of self and duality. it feels like we are an observer, observing the world, including our thoughts sensations etc. Everything that exists, other than hypothetically, is included in the observed category. Even the hypothesizing itself i suppose would be included in this category, so really anything you can experience in any way is observed.

This doesnt leave much room for an observer, if it could be experienced or imagined it would be considered to be in the observed category.
If even hypothetically it was not observable in any way it would have no characteristics therefore no existence, thus the observer is the observed, there is only the observed. everything is consciousness including our hypothesis about the world as it really is, what we call the self, and anything else you can see or think of. opinions?





Seems absurd, but forgivable.
All you have said is that you can only observe the observed, and thus you can only observe observations, not an observer. You actually imply the observer due to the observations.

If there is no observer then there is no observations, in which case it is absurd to say that all there is are observations.


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