Home | Community | Message Board

Sporeworks
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Brainstem]
    #14347836 - 04/25/11 07:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:grin:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 1 hour, 8 minutes
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: zoomfan]
    #14348012 - 04/25/11 08:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
good point, to clarify i am not saying there is no separation between this body and the next, there clearly is. what i am saying, is that the internal dichotomy of me and the world is not a reality. in traditional thought, i observe my body, thoughts etc. everything that i could call my self is observable, yet i call it my body, my thoughts etc the observers thoughts the observers body.

it feels like i am the observer of the body and the thoughts, implying i am some strange compilation of mind body and something beyond them both which is able to observe and control them. what i am arguing is that there is no dichotomy in reality, it is just the world rather than me and the world. everything is governed by the same forces this body and the world alike. the idea that i can control this body but not the next is wrong but not because i can control everything but nothing.

the idea of I as a free agent free from the forces acting on the rest of nature is illogical and imo not the case im basically just reiterating here but sometimes things on this level are very tricky to get a grasp on.

i find my point is often missed and so i try to keep it as simple as possible, the fact is most of the world thinks, whether they know it or not, that what they are is a free agent separate in some strange way from the forces of nature, which is just not the case. so to clarify again i am not denying the independence of one body from the next, just denying that the human being is a free agent exempt from the forces of nature.




I'm still left wondering how your view would differentiate phenomena that happen to you and phenomena that happen to me. If there is no inner world dichotomous to an outer world, how do the differences aforementioned in the experience of a paper cut, exist?

I agree with the majority of what you're saying.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezoomfan
doubt 'er
Male

Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 505
Loc: eastern Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14348686 - 04/25/11 11:40 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

zoomfan said:
what is the agent free from if not the forces of nature?


Being a free agent doesn't mean you're free from anything, it means that you are able to make choices to a limited extent.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
randomness is still a force of nature hypothetically...


Hypothetically. :lol:


Quote:

zoomfan said:
...even if the universe was random the human being would not be able to control what the randomness did so how is that not determinism for all intents and purposes in the debate of whether a human being is making a free choice. there is no agent at all in.


Having free will does not mean that you are free to make absolutely any choice you want--we are limited by what our bodies can do, but are free to make choices within that limit. We are also limited by the laws of gravity, but we are free to make choices within that limit.

how is it a free choice though if it is determined by forces which are unavailable to the "self" you dont know what thought your going to have until you have it.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
can you control what thought youll have next?


Yes.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
thoughts are what create decisions and if we dont decide what thoughts we have how can that be free choice?


Although some thoughts may be random, this doesn't mean that we are completely unable to control our thoughts.




your oversimplifying a very complex problem, say one thought overrides another and you call it a free choice, how did you freely choose for that first thought to exist, you didnt! so its not a free choice no matter what. thats all im concerned with, you can call it relative freedom or whatever you want but it has no real meaning. i understand the concept of freedom within boundaries but the fact is even that is determined by a process beyond the reach of the "self".

if you could explain to me how the self is not itself completely determined by other natural forces i would be amazed. where does it come from then? i mean were talking about something from nothing here thats what your basically saying, that the self.. can somehow generate its own thoughts from nothing that the self is exempt from the whole cause effect relationship. and not only exempt, but it is the very beginning of the cause effect relationship and can generate at will, whatever thought it wants. there is always a previous cause to any effect and the "self" can not influence a cause to which it is an effect.


--------------------
Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: zoomfan]
    #14349890 - 04/25/11 04:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
...say one thought overrides another....


What do you mean by that? How does a thought "override" another thought? :undecided:


Quote:

zoomfan said:
...and you call it a free choice, how did you freely choose for that first thought to exist, you didnt!


Oh great, at least you're supporting your claims with evidence. :rolleyes:


Quote:

zoomfan said:
so its not a free choice no matter what. thats all im concerned with, you can call it relative freedom or whatever you want but it has no real meaning. i understand the concept of freedom within boundaries but the fact is even that is determined by a process beyond the reach of the "self".


Proof?


Quote:

zoomfan said:
if you could explain to me how the self is not itself completely determined by other natural forces i would be amazed.


Free will IMO is the capacity to utilize decision-making processes--nothing more, nothing less.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
where does it come from then? i mean were talking about something from nothing here thats what your basically saying, that the self.. can somehow generate its own thoughts from nothing that the self is exempt from the whole cause effect relationship.


What cause-effect relationship? It generates thoughts within boundaries, and from past experiences--thoughts don't come from nothing.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
and not only exempt, but it is the very beginning of the cause effect relationship and can generate at will, whatever thought it wants.


I can generate whatever thought I can. :grin:


Quote:

zoomfan said:
there is always a previous cause to any effect...


Radioactive decay may be uncaused.


Quote:

zoomfan said:
and the "self" can not influence a cause to which it is an effect.


Proof?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (04/25/11 04:20 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14349949 - 04/25/11 04:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

the bizzle said:
one day i learned to stop debating with poids. Then it sucked me back in and i thought it mattered

:seriousbusiness:


some things simply cannot be explained to those who have no real point of reference for it. For some reason, it feels important to try, but one thing I know about all this is that you don't make it happen by trying to be like somebody else :satansmoking:


:braindamage:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethe bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14349993 - 04/25/11 04:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD 
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezoomfan
doubt 'er
Male

Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 505
Loc: eastern Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: the bizzle]
    #14350117 - 04/25/11 04:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

poid thats all my opinion i admit but your not really disputing what im saying with an equivalent alternative.

poid says " free will imo is the capacity to use decision making processes nothing more nothing less "

capacity for what to utilize decision making processes? i dont deny that the brain has decision making processes but i also think the brain is an automatic machine of which the "self" is an impotent byproduct.

your clearly an intelligent guy, just directly adress that with your equivalent argument.


--------------------
Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Kickle]
    #14350256 - 04/25/11 05:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I'm still left wondering how your view would differentiate phenomena that happen to you and phenomena that happen to me. If there is no inner world dichotomous to an outer world, how do the differences aforementioned in the experience of a paper cut, exist?




This is really good question, and it's related to personal identity. There are two main schools of thought on this that are compatible with monism, as far as I can tell. They're called "Empty individualism" and "Open individualism."

Basically, empty individualism (the view posited by people like Derek Parfit, Daniel Dennett, and even Buddha) says that that question is meaningless, because there is no fixed "you" and "me" for experiences to happen to in the first place. What is the difference between an experience that happened to a younger you, and an experience that happened to somebody else? You can't have an exactly accurate memory of the way a sense perception felt- it's as if your past experiences were had by different people, and soon your current experiences will also become memories whose accuracy you can't exactly verify. What you call your "self" is always changing. There's no fixed core or essence (or "soul").

The other view, "open individualism," (proposed by people like Daniel Kolak, Freeman Dyson, and Erwin Schrödinger) is sort of the opposite. Instead of being nobody, you are everybody. There is one "consciousness" that, for lack of a better phrase, "takes turns" being everybody. I can't explain this one in as much depth because I haven't read as much on it, but it seems interesting.

Currently I'm reading Kolak's book I Am You, which supports Open Individualism (PM me if you're interested in the link). It seems like a mystical, unsupportable sort of viewpoint at first glance, but the author is a pretty prominent cognitive scientist, and the book looks detailed and thorough, so we'll see.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezoomfan
doubt 'er
Male

Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 505
Loc: eastern Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Kickle]
    #14350440 - 04/25/11 05:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:quote]

I'm still left wondering how your view would differentiate phenomena that happen to you and phenomena that happen to me. If there is no inner world dichotomous to an outer world, how do the differences aforementioned in the experience of a paper cut, exist?

I agree with the majority of what you're saying.




to answer this ill have to explain my idea of qualia, i guess its called. I am arguing that qualia is a relationship, stimuli and sensor come together to create sensation, experience, not to any "one" or agent, just sensation, which is consciousness. if this body is cut by a piece of paper, the sensation of being cut by paper exists etc. in this view the observer is non existent, but the sensation still exists. therefore when i cut myself the sensation arises and is apparent in and of itself without the need for an observer. a memory may be produced and then a thought about "me observing it" but thats just an easy way to explain it.

pain is just an electrical impulse to the brain folowed by a chemical reaction,from what i understand. Without memory it would be lost forever. without memory it would just be a sensation caused by the stimulus and sensor. there is no need for an observer in the explanation of sensation imo.


--------------------
Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: zoomfan]
    #14350478 - 04/25/11 05:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:

Qualia = the physical world, and vice-versa. There is no subject, and no object, there is only the sense of observation (or, as Buddhists say, "thoughts arise without a thinker.")

IMO of course.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 1 hour, 8 minutes
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: zoomfan]
    #14351056 - 04/25/11 07:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
Quote:

Kickle said:

I'm still left wondering how your view would differentiate phenomena that happen to you and phenomena that happen to me. If there is no inner world dichotomous to an outer world, how do the differences aforementioned in the experience of a paper cut, exist?

I agree with the majority of what you're saying.




to answer this ill have to explain my idea of qualia, i guess its called. I am arguing that qualia is a relationship, stimuli and sensor come together to create sensation, experience, not to any "one" or agent, just sensation, which is consciousness. if this body is cut by a piece of paper, the sensation of being cut by paper exists etc. in this view the observer is non existent, but the sensation still exists. therefore when i cut myself the sensation arises and is apparent in and of itself without the need for an observer. a memory may be produced and then a thought about "me observing it" but thats just an easy way to explain it.

pain is just an electrical impulse to the brain folowed by a chemical reaction,from what i understand. Without memory it would be lost forever. without memory it would just be a sensation caused by the stimulus and sensor. there is no need for an observer in the explanation of sensation imo.




But the chemical reactions of my brain when I get cut are nearly the same as the chemical reactions of your brain when you get cut. Yet only in one of these two cases do I experience these chemical reactions. In only one of these cases are the chemicals that exist, experienced. How does this suggest that there is not an observer of an exclusive body and that it is instead consciousness unfolding to no one in particular?

I can consider it a possibility, but I see nothing to suggest it has any validity. I also see reasons for people to provide it with a subjective validity, as it creates less attachment to the happenings of the world. The world is a troubling place and the less we hold to it the less it hurts. Allowing things to happen is freeing, even if potentially misguided.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNightingale
Seeker of Sattva
Male


Registered: 01/25/09
Posts: 39
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Kickle]
    #14352703 - 04/25/11 11:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

zoomfan said:
Quote:

Kickle said:

I'm still left wondering how your view would differentiate phenomena that happen to you and phenomena that happen to me. If there is no inner world dichotomous to an outer world, how do the differences aforementioned in the experience of a paper cut, exist?

I agree with the majority of what you're saying.




to answer this ill have to explain my idea of qualia, i guess its called. I am arguing that qualia is a relationship, stimuli and sensor come together to create sensation, experience, not to any "one" or agent, just sensation, which is consciousness. if this body is cut by a piece of paper, the sensation of being cut by paper exists etc. in this view the observer is non existent, but the sensation still exists. therefore when i cut myself the sensation arises and is apparent in and of itself without the need for an observer. a memory may be produced and then a thought about "me observing it" but thats just an easy way to explain it.

pain is just an electrical impulse to the brain folowed by a chemical reaction,from what i understand. Without memory it would be lost forever. without memory it would just be a sensation caused by the stimulus and sensor. there is no need for an observer in the explanation of sensation imo.




But the chemical reactions of my brain when I get cut are nearly the same as the chemical reactions of your brain when you get cut. Yet only in one of these two cases do I experience these chemical reactions. In only one of these cases are the chemicals that exist, experienced. How does this suggest that there is not an observer of an exclusive body and that it is instead consciousness unfolding to no one in particular?

I can consider it a possibility, but I see nothing to suggest it has any validity. I also see reasons for people to provide it with a subjective validity, as it creates less attachment to the happenings of the world. The world is a troubling place and the less we hold to it the less it hurts. Allowing things to happen is freeing, even if potentially misguided.




If I understand, you're talking about the sharing of subjective bodiliy experiences. The body is the sense organ through which we experience the world. It's also what we use to interpret those experiences and to store memories of them. A non-dualistic philosophy suggests that all things are an expression of universal consciousness, and that this is the same consciousness (awareness) that we all share. As a bodily function, the interpretation of pain is limited to your body alone because consciousness (A.K.A. the observer) is unaffected by it. Yes, you will say "ouch" and have memories of pain, but the "I" in "I just cut my finger" is not consciousness, but ego mascarading as consciousness. As a result, your finger pain is observed by the universal consciousness, but not by anyone else since "I" is restricted to one's own body.

Savvy?


--------------------
Step 1: Look up at the stars
Step 2: Realize they must be Gods
Step 3: Know that you're the same


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Nightingale]
    #14352782 - 04/25/11 11:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Nightingale said:
The body is the sense organ through which we experience the world.


Not true, only portions of our body are sensory organs:

Sensory system
Quote:

A sensory system is a part of the nervous system responsible for processing sensory information. A sensory system consists of sensory receptors, neural pathways, and parts of the brain involved in sensory perception. Commonly recognized sensory systems are those for vision, hearing, somatic sensation (touch), taste and olfaction (smell). In short, senses are transducers from the physical world to the realm of the mind.




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNightingale
Seeker of Sattva
Male


Registered: 01/25/09
Posts: 39
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14352817 - 04/25/11 11:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Nightingale said:
The body is the sense organ through which we experience the world.


Not true, only portions of our body are sensory organs:

Sensory system
Quote:

A sensory system is a part of the nervous system responsible for processing sensory information. A sensory system consists of sensory receptors, neural pathways, and parts of the brain involved in sensory perception. Commonly recognized sensory systems are those for vision, hearing, somatic sensation (touch), taste and olfaction (smell). In short, senses are transducers from the physical world to the realm of the mind.







Thank you for the clarification. I stand by what I said.


--------------------
Step 1: Look up at the stars
Step 2: Realize they must be Gods
Step 3: Know that you're the same


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Nightingale]
    #14352830 - 04/25/11 11:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:, OK...


The body is not a sensory organ, not every part of the body is part of the nervous system. :imslow:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNightingale
Seeker of Sattva
Male


Registered: 01/25/09
Posts: 39
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14352927 - 04/26/11 12:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
:lol:, OK...


The body is not a sensory organ, not every part of the body is part of the nervous system. :imslow:




Allow me to clarify. The body is the locus of sensation, and interpretation thereof. I understand what you're saying about the 5 senses, and what I'm saying is that sensation goes beyond "the senses". For example, interpretation is certainly a sensation, but is not one of the conventional senses.
I'd also like to point out that even though most of the body isn't a part of the nervous system, it pervades the body. This is why I can feel how smooth my coffee cup is, despite the fact that my finger is not a part of the nervous system.
Does that clear up the misunderstanding?


--------------------
Step 1: Look up at the stars
Step 2: Realize they must be Gods
Step 3: Know that you're the same


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Nightingale]
    #14352949 - 04/26/11 12:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Nightingale said:
Does that clear up the misunderstanding?


Yes, a bit.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNightingale
Seeker of Sattva
Male


Registered: 01/25/09
Posts: 39
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14353016 - 04/26/11 12:43 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Nightingale said:
Does that clear up the misunderstanding?


Yes, a bit.



Is there something I could clear up?


--------------------
Step 1: Look up at the stars
Step 2: Realize they must be Gods
Step 3: Know that you're the same


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Nightingale]
    #14353036 - 04/26/11 12:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well there's at least one thing you said there that I disagree with, but I pretty much get what you're saying.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNightingale
Seeker of Sattva
Male


Registered: 01/25/09
Posts: 39
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: The observer is the observed [Re: Poid]
    #14353061 - 04/26/11 12:56 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Well there's at least one thing you said there that I disagree with, but I pretty much get what you're saying.




:fonz:


--------------------
Step 1: Look up at the stars
Step 2: Realize they must be Gods
Step 3: Know that you're the same


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* the infinite wheel revisited Zekebomb 1,192 6 02/23/05 07:12 PM
by TheShroomHermit
* Who/what does the disassociated observer observe? Some DXM-induced ponderings... the_phoenix 676 3 03/07/05 02:48 PM
by egghead1
* The post that never dies
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Dogomush 7,735 62 08/29/03 11:23 AM
by fireworks_god
* Trying "quantify" Epistemology TaoinShrrom 2,228 14 09/16/03 02:17 PM
by Rhizoid
* the root of suffering is desire
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Moonshoe 12,566 117 12/20/05 02:15 PM
by redgreenvines
* Best UFO Evidence
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
Swami 11,354 132 09/24/05 05:35 PM
by Diploid
* Some observations on the people of this forum
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Dogomush 4,571 68 09/02/03 01:51 PM
by Ped
* Observations on Mayan Calendar
( 1 2 3 all )
vampirism 4,743 55 12/09/04 12:35 AM
by Diploid

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
2,446 topic views. 1 members, 16 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.04 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.