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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14356149 - 04/26/11 04:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
with religious bullshit?  There is already another forum for that.  And no, religion is not philosophy.




The discipline 'philosophy of religion' is just that - philosophy. One can earn a Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) degree in many disciplines, although most Ph.D.s don't seem to consider themselves as 'lovers of wisdom' so much as 'expert egos' in their respective field. Religions do include a 'love of wisdom,' but there are additional elements like ritual, ceremony, traditional forms of dress, food, song, music; not to mention points that are simply accepted on faith, i.e., dogma. Such points are no longer open to doubt or analysis according to pure religionists. Philosophy is more open to Truth in that no idea is closed to further analysis. Religion is more than an intellectual endeavor, not that philosophy isn't in its most sublime forms. There, intuition, 'vision-logic,' and Illumination are integral components of philosophy. At that level of philosophy, say, the NeoPlatonism of Plotinus, philosophy and religion become indistinguishable. Plotinus is unsurpassed as a philosopher, and yet, he entertained the reality and practice of magick, which those philosophers who venerate the rational mind above all other elements of mentation can never accept. Does that diminish his status as philosopher? I think not. Magick contains the truth of synchronicity, of sympathy, of non-locality, non-linearity and other insights about the nature of things. We must synthesize the Apollonian with the Dionysian to transcend the opposites. Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis. Hegel.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14356163 - 04/26/11 04:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

A PhD has nothing to do with philosophy.  You can have a PhD in Chemistry.  That doesn't make Chemistry Philosophy.


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Offline4896744
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14356361 - 04/26/11 05:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What makes you think Plotinus was the greatest philosopher?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14356941 - 04/26/11 06:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
A PhD has nothing to do with philosophy.  You can have a PhD in Chemistry.  That doesn't make Chemistry Philosophy.




Why do YOU think the terminal degree is called a Ph.D.? Ever think about it? Leucippus and his pupil Democritus are listed among philosophers of antiquity who spoke about 'atoms,' and such philosophers were called atomists. The pre-Ssocratic  philosophers were known for their emphasis on metaphysical substances (arche): Thales' water, Anaximander's apeiron, Anaximenes' air, the fire of Heraclitus, the earth of Empedocles, etc. All modern disciplines had their beginnings, East and West, among philosophers. Atomist philosophers coalesced in Aristotle, and for many centuries his four elements of Earth, Air, Fire nd Water dominated 'natural philosophy' which was the forerunner of science. Aristotle had profound influence upon the Arab alchemists who used his metaphysics (they, or perhaps, we, still do) in their philosophical system which divided into physical chemistry at some point and spiritual realization, of the vulgar gold and the Philosophical Gold (or Philosophers' Stone), respectively. So I beg to differ with you.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: 4896744]
    #14357016 - 04/26/11 06:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
What makes you think Plotinus was the greatest philosopher?




Greatest perhaps after Plato. Plotinus elaborated the thoughts of Plato and arranged them in a systematic hierarchy of Being. When, after the first week of a course I took in mysticism my last semester in college, everyone but me had dropped out. The professor, Dr. David Leahy, offered me a tutorial in The Enneads of Plotinus, topped off by a comparison with the 6th century Christian NeoPlatonist Dionysus the Areopagite AKA Pseudo-Dionysus, AKA St. Denis. I was still in my regular acid consumption phase, and I must have imprinted this rather difficult work on Plotinus, so that, when I began in a theological seminary the following fall, I was better prepared to describe the hierarchy than my professor Thomas C. Oden (another influence on me). The first thing I ever heard of Plotinus was a 4 second song on The Fugs album: It Crawled Into My Hand - Honest.
The song is called, 'Tuli Visited by the Ghost of Plotinus,' - a moment of weird sound with the words: "I'm in this for the sex, myself..." A total goof on the celibate, body-despising mystic. So, the personal choice is fed by these different memories which include my valuation by a respected professor, my small mastery over another respected professor, an adolescent impression that only later became understood and appreciated, PLUS my appreciation of a kindred soul from 270 CE. Capiche? :wink:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offline4896744
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14357186 - 04/26/11 07:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

iThink said:
What makes you think Plotinus was the greatest philosopher?




Greatest perhaps after Plato. Plotinus elaborated the thoughts of Plato and arranged them in a systematic hierarchy of Being. When, after the first week of a course I took in mysticism my last semester in college, everyone but me had dropped out. The professor, Dr. David Leahy, offered me a tutorial in The Enneads of Plotinus, topped off by a comparison with the 6th century Christian NeoPlatonist Dionysus the Areopagite AKA Pseudo-Dionysus, AKA St. Denis. I was still in my regular acid consumption phase, and I must have imprinted this rather difficult work on Plotinus, so that, when I began in a theological seminary the following fall, I was better prepared to describe the hierarchy than my professor Thomas C. Oden (another influence on me). The first thing I ever heard of Plotinus was a 4 second song on The Fugs album: It Crawled Into My Hand - Honest.
The song is called, 'Tuli Visited by the Ghost of Plotinus,' - a moment of weird sound with the words: "I'm in this for the sex, myself..." A total goof on the celibate, body-despising mystic. So, the personal choice is fed by these different memories which include my valuation by a respected professor, my small mastery over another respected professor, an adolescent impression that only later became understood and appreciated, PLUS my appreciation of a kindred soul from 270 CE. Capiche? :wink:




You strike as possibly being one of the most over-educated (not a bad thing) acid heads to have ever existed.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: 4896744]
    #14357802 - 04/26/11 09:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

iThink said:
What makes you think Plotinus was the greatest philosopher?




Greatest perhaps after Plato. Plotinus elaborated the thoughts of Plato and arranged them in a systematic hierarchy of Being. When, after the first week of a course I took in mysticism my last semester in college, everyone but me had dropped out. The professor, Dr. David Leahy, offered me a tutorial in The Enneads of Plotinus, topped off by a comparison with the 6th century Christian NeoPlatonist Dionysus the Areopagite AKA Pseudo-Dionysus, AKA St. Denis. I was still in my regular acid consumption phase, and I must have imprinted this rather difficult work on Plotinus, so that, when I began in a theological seminary the following fall, I was better prepared to describe the hierarchy than my professor Thomas C. Oden (another influence on me). The first thing I ever heard of Plotinus was a 4 second song on The Fugs album: It Crawled Into My Hand - Honest.
The song is called, 'Tuli Visited by the Ghost of Plotinus,' - a moment of weird sound with the words: "I'm in this for the sex, myself..." A total goof on the celibate, body-despising mystic. So, the personal choice is fed by these different memories which include my valuation by a respected professor, my small mastery over another respected professor, an adolescent impression that only later became understood and appreciated, PLUS my appreciation of a kindred soul from 270 CE. Capiche? :wink:




You strike as possibly being one of the most over-educated (not a bad thing) acid heads to have ever existed.




:rofl:  Dependent arisings. Each moment of life is an agglutination of past events plus a moment of novelty. Hey, Francis Crick took acid and envisioned the double-helix. I am nobody.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14357874 - 04/26/11 09:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

markos, i'm interested in learning more about plotinus, but i feel a scholar's explanation of him might do me better than trying to read him. any authors you could recommend that explain the nitty gritty of neo-platonism in plain language?


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14358875 - 04/26/11 11:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think there is a lot of shared character and important overlap between theology and philosophy.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: millzy]
    #14359105 - 04/27/11 12:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
markos, i'm interested in learning more about plotinus, but i feel a scholar's explanation of him might do me better than trying to read him. any authors you could recommend that explain the nitty gritty of neo-platonism in plain language?



There's a great chapter on Plotinus in Bertrand Russell's "History of Western Philosophy," which is pretty easy reading.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: NetDiver]
    #14360046 - 04/27/11 08:40 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

millzy said:
markos, i'm interested in learning more about plotinus, but i feel a scholar's explanation of him might do me better than trying to read him. any authors you could recommend that explain the nitty gritty of neo-platonism in plain language?



There's a great chapter on Plotinus in Bertrand Russell's "History of Western Philosophy," which is pretty easy reading.




thanks! yeah, i just don't want to take on a grad school level text when i'm not ready.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: millzy]
    #14360132 - 04/27/11 09:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

just take it on man, you'll adapt. read slow if you got to.


--------------------
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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: g00ru]
    #14360186 - 04/27/11 09:22 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
just take it on man, you'll adapt. read slow if you got to.




some things are better assimilating under the guidance of an instructor. i started reading plato when i moved to greece in 2009. i understood it, but after a year of formal schooling i feel like i understand it on the level it is meant to be understood, or at least at a freshman level. plotinus is grad school stuff. sure, i could read it, but i'd like to get the most out of it. i'd be interested in a good starting point that lays out the central ideas of his metaphysics in layperson's terms, if there is such a thing.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14360318 - 04/27/11 09:56 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
A PhD has nothing to do with philosophy.  You can have a PhD in Chemistry.  That doesn't make Chemistry Philosophy.




Why do YOU think the terminal degree is called a Ph.D.? Ever think about it? Leucippus and his pupil Democritus are listed among philosophers of antiquity who spoke about 'atoms,' and such philosophers were called atomists. The pre-Ssocratic  philosophers were known for their emphasis on metaphysical substances (arche): Thales' water, Anaximander's apeiron, Anaximenes' air, the fire of Heraclitus, the earth of Empedocles, etc. All modern disciplines had their beginnings, East and West, among philosophers. Atomist philosophers coalesced in Aristotle, and for many centuries his four elements of Earth, Air, Fire nd Water dominated 'natural philosophy' which was the forerunner of science. Aristotle had profound influence upon the Arab alchemists who used his metaphysics (they, or perhaps, we, still do) in their philosophical system which divided into physical chemistry at some point and spiritual realization, of the vulgar gold and the Philosophical Gold (or Philosophers' Stone), respectively. So I beg to differ with you.



Methinkest thou doth not comprehend language evolution.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14360582 - 04/27/11 11:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well, the sciences originally were a branch of philosophy. They have since become distinct, for the most part, though theoretical physicists often blur the line.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: NetDiver]
    #14361655 - 04/27/11 03:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

They weren't sciences, either.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14361762 - 04/27/11 03:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
A PhD has nothing to do with philosophy.  You can have a PhD in Chemistry.  That doesn't make Chemistry Philosophy.




Why do YOU think the terminal degree is called a Ph.D.? Ever think about it? Leucippus and his pupil Democritus are listed among philosophers of antiquity who spoke about 'atoms,' and such philosophers were called atomists. The pre-Ssocratic  philosophers were known for their emphasis on metaphysical substances (arche): Thales' water, Anaximander's apeiron, Anaximenes' air, the fire of Heraclitus, the earth of Empedocles, etc. All modern disciplines had their beginnings, East and West, among philosophers. Atomist philosophers coalesced in Aristotle, and for many centuries his four elements of Earth, Air, Fire nd Water dominated 'natural philosophy' which was the forerunner of science. Aristotle had profound influence upon the Arab alchemists who used his metaphysics (they, or perhaps, we, still do) in their philosophical system which divided into physical chemistry at some point and spiritual realization, of the vulgar gold and the Philosophical Gold (or Philosophers' Stone), respectively. So I beg to differ with you.



Methinkest thou doth not comprehend language evolution.




Methinkest thou a foolish knave. All things are layered. If I choose to dig more deeply than the majority, in order to unearth an archaic yet relevant meaning, it is my prerogative. I can mine the psyche of myself and others with hypnosis, and uncover a different individual at every age that is exposed. All layers contribute to the current personality. So, by analogy, the meaning of a Ph.D. in any given field of endeavor is still meaningful if one groks my intention. Certainly not a meaningless invention at any rate.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 2
    #14361910 - 04/27/11 03:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Markos, you've been warned about the childish name calling several times. If you choose to debate by insult, then go do it in OTD.

Take a time out.


--------------------
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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14362628 - 04/27/11 05:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
They weren't sciences, either.




not true. with the advent of the university in medieval europe and the rise of scholasticism, theology was considered a science. in fact thomas aquinas called theology "the highest science". don't get me wrong though, i think hard sciences and social sciences (which i consider theology, in some cases, to be) deal in distinctly different areas and serve completely different purposes, but still, when approached in a certain way, theology can be considered a science.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: Why is the philosophy, sociology and psychology forum being over-run [Re: Diploid]
    #14363011 - 04/27/11 07:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Markos, you've been warned about the childish name calling several times. If you choose to debate by insult, then go do it in OTD.

Take a time out.




The poltical forum allows name calling as well.


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