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InvisibleBrainstem
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Is it ever, not retarded to believe ?
    #14338695 - 04/23/11 02:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If not, could someone please 'enlighten' me as to the correct coherent and logical stance to take when approaching and defending faith ?


--------------------
The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Brainstem]
    #14338733 - 04/23/11 02:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's an emotional thing, not a logical/rational thing.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Poid]
    #14338767 - 04/23/11 02:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How do you mean ?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Brainstem]
    #14338779 - 04/23/11 02:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Faith is not logical, people have faith in things for emotional reasons--the argument could be made that faith isn't retarded because it makes one happy.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Poid]
    #14338801 - 04/23/11 02:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I may be off track, but is faith sometimes not the motivation behind a persons attempt to be free of emotion ?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Brainstem]
    #14338826 - 04/23/11 02:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It certainly can be.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Poid]
    #14338863 - 04/23/11 02:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So things that make us happy are not necessarily good for us and alternately things that we abhore can sometimes be beneficial in one way or another ?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Brainstem]
    #14338883 - 04/23/11 02:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with that. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Poid]
    #14338973 - 04/23/11 03:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Then can we not say that, belief allows us to perpetuate the search for something until faith is no longer needed ?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Brainstem]
    #14338989 - 04/23/11 03:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It can, sure.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Poid]
    #14339012 - 04/23/11 03:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Obviously with a moderate attitude, and ensuring there is no imposition of a persons beliefs on an individual or group, through violence or deception.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Brainstem] * 1
    #14339369 - 04/23/11 04:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

IMO believing things that are completely absent any supporting evidence is always retarded.

If not, could someone please 'enlighten' me as to the correct coherent and logical stance to take when approaching and defending faith?

Faith is not logical. It's arbitrary belief in something "just because". What's more, it's belief in things that other faithful people find diametrically opposed to their own faith.

The pope preaches that god wants humans to be peaceful. He has no evidence for this. He believes it "just because".

Meanwhile, suicide bombers preach that god want's innocent civilians, including little kids, to be dismembered in terrorist attacks. Like the pope, they have no evidence for this. They believe it "just because".

This theme repeats everywhere that people make recourse to faith instead of evidence to form opinions and make decisions. Witness the irrational war on drugs. Its goal is to prevent the harm that drugs cause, but instead drugs remain easy to get and it's the drug war that causes harm.

The drug war destroys the lives and careers of people who get arrested with a few joints. It gives rise rise to the atrocious drug gang violence in Mexico and funds terrorist activities through the enormous profit motive prohibition creates on the Afghanistan heroin trade.

By every measure the drug war is a gigantic, expensive failure, but it goes on and on. Why? Because of irrational decision making by people who have faith that the drug war a good thing "just because".


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Diploid]
    #14339566 - 04/23/11 05:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

IMO believing things that are completely absent any supporting evidence is always retarded.





I believe Diploid is a super-duper human being! :sun:


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14339593 - 04/23/11 05:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Except that. :razz:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Diploid]
    #14339739 - 04/23/11 05:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
IMO believing things that are completely absent any supporting evidence is always retarded.

If not, could someone please 'enlighten' me as to the correct coherent and logical stance to take when approaching and defending faith?

Faith is not logical. It's arbitrary belief in something "just because". What's more, it's belief in things that other faithful people find diametrically opposed to their own faith.

The pope preaches that god wants humans to be peaceful. He has no evidence for this. He believes it "just because".





Meanwhile, suicide bombers preach that god want's innocent civilians, including little kids, to be dismembered in terrorist attacks. Like the pope, they have no evidence for this. They believe it "just because".

This theme repeats everywhere that people make recourse faith instead of evidence to form opinions and make decisions. Witness the irrational war on drugs. Its goal is to prevent the harm that drugs cause, but instead drugs remain easy to get and it's the drug war that causes harm.

The drug war destroys the lives and careers of people who get arrested with a few joints. It gives rise rise to the atrocious drug gang violence in Mexico and funds terrorist activities through the enormous pro
fit motive prohibition creates on the Afghanistan heroin trade.

By every measure the drug war is an gigantic, expensive failure, but it goes on and on. Why? Because of irrational decision making by people who have faith that the drug war a good thing "just because".





Do you think there is a difference between a belief that something is true and a belief that something is possible ?



Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

IMO believing things that are completely absent any supporting evidence is always retarded.





I believe Diploid is a super-duper human being! :sun:



Quote:

Diploid said:
IMO believing things that are completely absent any supporting evidence is always retarded.

If not, could someone please 'enlighten' me as to the correct coherent and logical stance to take when approaching and defending faith?

Faith is not logical. It's arbitrary belief in something "just because". What's more, it's belief in things that other faithful people find diametrically opposed to their own faith.

The pope preaches that god wants humans to be peaceful. He has no evidence for this. He believes it "just because".

Meanwhile, suicide bombers preach that god want's innocent civilians, including little kids, to be dismembered in terrorist attacks. Like the pope, they have no evidence for this. They believe it "just because".

This theme repeats everywhere that people make recourse faith instead of evidence to form opinions and make decisions. Witness the irrational war on drugs. Its goal is to prevent the harm that drugs cause, but instead drugs remain easy to get and it's the drug war that causes harm.

The drug war destroys the lives and careers of people who get arrested with a few joints. It gives rise rise to the atrocious drug gang violence in Mexico and funds terrorist activities through the enormous profit motive prohibition creates on the Afghanistan heroin trade.

By every measure the drug war is an gigantic, expensive failure, but it goes on and on. Why? Because of irrational decision making by people who have faith that the drug war a good thing "just because".





So, do you think there is a difference between believing something is a fact and believing something may be possible ?


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OfflineMutantBonobo
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Diploid]
    #14339795 - 04/23/11 05:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I have to agree with Diploid's excellent response.

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits."
- Dan Barker, author and former evangelist


--------------------
Lois, this family believes in the Easter Bunny.  He died for our sins in that helicopter crash.  Now, if you wanna go to hell, that's fine, but don't drag the rest of us down with you like a mentally handicapped rooster.
- Peter Griffin (Family Guy)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Brainstem]
    #14339904 - 04/23/11 06:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Do you think there is a difference between a belief that something is true and a belief that something is possible ?

Yes, but in my experience, the faithful give leeway to the possible that is completely implausible.

I don't think it's rational to go about life leaving teeth under pillows on the POSSIBILITY that the Tooth Fairy is real.

Neither do I think it's rational to bow down and worship an entity that has never made itself verifyably known to anyone (though lots of people have written books about resurrections and other implausible things that the faithful swallow like it's cake and they're starving).


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Diploid]
    #14340217 - 04/23/11 07:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I cannot deny the logic of your arguement. I do think however that the debate and discussion that takes place here is  an indication of the need for an evolution in religion, or to maybe put it a better  way, a new species of religion. What do you think ?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Brainstem]
    #14340764 - 04/23/11 09:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Fuck religion.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Brainstem]
    #14340797 - 04/23/11 09:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If by "evolution in religion" you mean a religion based on rationality, logic, and critical thinking, then yes, I agree there is a need for that.

However, I think that once those ideas are introduced, religion is reduced to mythological stories with no basis in reality.

You can't rationally argue that god COULD exist and so therefore you choose to live as if he does any more than you can rationally argue the same thing for the Tooth Fairy. Yeah, they COULD exist, but that's absurd.

Now, you can certainly decide to believe in god (or the Tooth Fairy) if it makes you feel good and alleviates your death anxiety, but that doesn't make them real.

I would rather have a bitter truth than a pleasant, sugar-coated lie any day.

Besides, I've studied nature (read: science) enough to see a profound beauty in the universe that stands on its own without need of augmenting with imaginary beings. Making up a stuffy and unnecessary god only detracts from nature's wonder.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Diploid]
    #14340906 - 04/23/11 10:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think you misunderstand me a lot. I'm not into the anthropomorphic rendering of 'God' and Your last two sentences are the very reason I search for any form of intelligence underlying our existence and the universe.
    I was raised as a protestant christian and around the age of eighteen I started looking at other religions, buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, paganism, and even some new age stuff. I have not found proof, but I have found perspective. My personal perspective means I cannot be 100% that there is no super intelligence (if you will) that governs the universe (if you will).

  Like I said earlier I agree with your argument, it is however insubstantial to me personally. It doesn't disprove such an intelligence, only the paradoxical nature of existence.

  The benevolence of 'God' is another argument that is sometimes put forward, this I also find insubstantial, as it relies on the premise of good and evil which can be argued are completely subjective and irrelevant when considered in the context of existence as a system.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Brainstem] * 1
    #14340945 - 04/23/11 10:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If you are using your faith so that you can focus your attention on good work, then it is justified.
to question faith takes time.
but
if you are ready to devote time to re-architecting your life then engage in discovery and design.
this may take you out of your habits.

if someone calls you retarded they are being manipulative.
however if you are retarded that is a whole nother ball of wax.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Brainstem]
    #14340961 - 04/23/11 10:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

My personal perspective means I cannot be 100% that there is no super intelligence

But that's true of everything. You can't be 100% sure that there's no Tooth Fairy. So you believe she lives in a nice condo on Venus?

Probably not. So why believe that there is a magical creator when the evidence for his existence is exactly the same evidence for the Tooth Fairy's existence? Namely, none at all.

Besides, there is NOTHING in the observable universe that requires a god for its existence. EVERYTHING humans have ever observed can be explained by purely natural phenomenon.

So why introduce a superfluous god into the equation when he is not necessary for the universe to exist and function?

It's like explaining the condensation of water on a cold glass of lemonade by invoking magic pixies. Sure, condensation may be the result of magic pixies, but why introduce superfluous pixies when it's been shown that simple condensation theory explains it perfectly well and with less complexity?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Diploid]
    #14341420 - 04/23/11 11:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Cuz pixies make the lemonade taste better. :yesnod:


--------------------


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14341491 - 04/24/11 12:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:fairy:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Brainstem]
    #14341818 - 04/24/11 01:44 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Brainstem said:
I think you misunderstand me a lot. I'm not into the anthropomorphic rendering of 'God' and Your last two sentences are the very reason I search for any form of intelligence underlying our existence and the universe.
    I was raised as a protestant christian and around the age of eighteen I started looking at other religions, buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, paganism, and even some new age stuff. I have not found proof, but I have found perspective. My personal perspective means I cannot be 100% that there is no super intelligence (if you will) that governs the universe (if you will).

  Like I said earlier I agree with your argument, it is however insubstantial to me personally. It doesn't disprove such an intelligence, only the paradoxical nature of existence.

  The benevolence of 'God' is another argument that is sometimes put forward, this I also find insubstantial, as it relies on the premise of good and evil which can be argued are completely subjective and irrelevant when considered in the context of existence as a system.




I think the concept of God relates to our self image, our fears, our survival and procreation desires, much more so than the concept of the Tooth Fairy. And God is a given for a large segment of society, so we grow up in a world where we, to some degree, find ourselves emulating what we see. But once you begin to separate out the fears and organic desire, there's not much reason left to seek God. I think if you will look at the motivations for the searching and wanting to know, you will come to a point where the question of God isn't important. It's a study of natural patterns, and cause and effect that people wish to learn about IMO. Some people don't want to stand at the edge, have a raw experience and attempt to see things the way they really are, so they believe in God, or are lukewarm towards it.

I think having some respect for the emotional side that seems to invoke God is a good idea, but entertaining it is another matter.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Diploid]
    #14342512 - 04/24/11 08:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)



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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Brainstem] * 1
    #14342545 - 04/24/11 08:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

There is no reason to blindly accept anything.
There is no reason to blindly reject anything.


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Offlinepouihi
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Brainstem]
    #14348732 - 04/25/11 11:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

just as retarded as believing in santa or the easter bunny :shrug:



--------------------


"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."


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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: pouihi]
    #14357352 - 04/26/11 07:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Faith- The Will to avoid knowing what is true"

Beliefs aren't knowledge. If you KNEW something, you would no longer believe it. You wouldn't have to, because you know it.


--------------------
Life without drugs lacks substance(s).


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Brainstem] * 1
    #14357467 - 04/26/11 08:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If not, could someone please 'enlighten' me as to the correct coherent and logical stance to take when approaching and defending faith ?




An example of a logical reason to believe in God is if you have seen God or experienced God in some way, such as those who have NDE's and claim to meet God or other "higher" powers.

Here is an example. As long as this man is not lying he has a legitimate rational convinction that God exists. He still needs to have some faith that his experience was not a hullicination and that the presence he experienced was indeed the God mankind has talked about since the beginning of time.

http://www.youtube.com/user/soldatheero?feature=mhum#p/f


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: soldatheero]
    #14357530 - 04/26/11 08:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The NDE is an artifact of neuron hypoxia. This has been demonstrated by modern neural imaging technique and studies of epileptics.

The NDE can even be reproduced on demand in a surgical suite on brain surgery patients.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinesoldatheero
lastirishman
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Diploid]
    #14357700 - 04/26/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

All that has been demonsrated is that a certain component of the NDE can be correlated to physical processes, neuron hypocia doesn't even come close to explaining the entire range of NDE experiences.

How does neuron hypocia explain how a person vividely remembers floating about their body and how they can recal conversations and describe instruments used during the operation.


http://www.spiritualtravel.org/OBE/nde_arguments.html
"One of the most recent media reports on out-of-body experience came from a CNN story where the headline read: "Scientists recreate out-of-body experience". What is actually being done in the experiment if you read further is "creat[ing] the illusion of an out-of-body experience" . This was done with an experiment using two different sets of scenes from different video cameras in association with stereoscopic virtual reality goggles which made the subjects feel like their body was mysteriously shifted to a different location than the one it was in at the beginning of the experiment.

It was quite a vivid experience for most people," Dr Ehrsson told CNN. "Many of them giggled and said 'Wow, this is so weird!'. One of the people I tested had experienced an OBE before, and explained that the experiment had produced a very similar sensation."
The scientist concluded,

"It reveals the basic mechanism that produces the feeling of being inside the physical body. This represents a significant advance because the experience of one's own body as the center of awareness is a fundamental aspect of self-consciousness,"-
My response is first that reproducing the illusion of an OBE is not necessarily reproducing an OBE. Second, the "feeling" of being outside the body is only one component of an OBE. The perceptions that occur while outside the body which vary greatly are another important component that is not dealt with by this experiment. The idea that there is one kind of feeling associated with being out of the body is naive. This feeling could be described as a simple case of vertigo based on the disorientation of the subjects brought on by the cameras providing them with confusing visual information.
There are also a wide spectrum of internal feelings associated with OBEs. Any researcher who accepts the vague notion of a subject having a single feeling which describes or defines an OBE needs to first sharpen his or her analytic skills before even beginning such an experiment.

Third, only one person in the group of test subjects had ever had an OBE before. So claiming that the feeling is the same is a bit premature on the part of the researchers. We see this tendency to jump to conclusions frequently. Fourth, the interactive side of the OBE where the person moves his or her body and interacts with physical (or nonphysical) objects is completely missing from subjects sitting passively in a chair. This "feeling" of having an OBE seems to differ greatly from many actual OBEs."


Quote:

The NDE is an artifact of neuron hypocia. This has been demonstrated by modern neural imaging technique and studies of epileptics.






You are so positive so show me your data and present your argument that explains away the NDE so easily.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: soldatheero]
    #14357770 - 04/26/11 09:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

show me your data and present your argument that explains away the NDE so easily

There is a structure in the brain that is attributed with this sensation. This area of the brain is credited with giving a person the sensation of existing inside their head and is one explanation for why people who recover from anoxia often report OBEs.

The area in question is called the Angular Gyrus. It's located in the parietal lobe (top-back) of the brain near where the sense of balance is processed. The AG is larger in hominids than in other primates. It's involved in language processing and particularly with the comprehension of metaphors. People with injury to the AG are unable to interpret metaphors and can only comprehend the literal meaning of the words while all other language skills remain unaffected.

The relationship to OBEs was first found while treating a woman for intractable epilepsy. To localize the source of the patient's seizures, doctors at the University Hospitals of Geneva and Lausanne in Switzerland implanted electrodes in the patient's brain. With the patient awake, they probed her brain to map the pathology.

Stimulation of the AG caused various sensations including "sinking into the bed", "falling from a height", "seeing myself lying in bed from above", "floating", and all the other sensations people who claim OBEs report.

Electrical stimulation of the AG causes these sensations because it disrupts the ability of the brain to make sense of touch and balance input. It has been suggested (though not confirmed yet) that sleep may disturb the neurological activity near the AG which may be involved in the phenomenon of lucid dreaming.

how they can recal conversations and describe instruments used during the operation

They were there, weren't they? If anesthesia induction is incomplete, the patient will remember things. This is one of the hazards of general anesthesia that doctors work hard to prevent, but sometimes it happens. Occasionally, a patient will have complete recall of the entire procedure, including pain, but will be unable to move during the procedure. It leads to lawsuits.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #14358287 - 04/26/11 10:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

if someone calls you retarded they are being manipulative. however if you are retarded that is a whole nother ball of wax.




I like to think of you as a whole 'nother ball of wax.

:ban:


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Offlinesoldatheero
lastirishman
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Re: Is it ever, not retarded to believe ? [Re: Diploid]
    #14358355 - 04/26/11 10:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

They were there, weren't they? If anesthesia induction is incomplete, the patient will remember things. This is one of the hazards of general anesthesia that doctors work hard to prevent, but sometimes it happens




They describe floating over their bodies. Even they are hearinh normally through the body then why arent they feeling any of the other effects of their body such as pain and disorientation.

Quote:

he relationship to OBEs was first found while treating a woman for intractable epilepsy. To localize the source of the patient's seizures, doctors at the University Hospitals of Geneva and Lausanne in Switzerland implanted electrodes in the patient's brain. With the patient awake, they probed her brain to map the pathology.

Stimulation of the AG caused various sensations including "sinking into the bed", "falling from a height", "seeing myself lying in bed from above", "floating", and all the other sensations people who claim OBEs report




We are talking about NDE's which OBE's are merely an isolated part of. Even then like I quoted, "My response is first that reproducing the illusion of an OBE is not necessarily reproducing an OBE. Second, the "feeling" of being outside the body is only one component of an OBE".

They may have the sensation of "seeing oneself from above" but that is different from actually viewing yourself from above.

Even then you are a farcry from explaining the NDE. Why is there consciousness in the first place, in some cases many hours after the brain is inactive. The conscious experience described is also vivid and crystal clear which is contrary to dreaming.

To say neuron hypocia is the cause of the entire cause of the NDE phenomenon and case closed is IMO a very premature conclusion and illogical.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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