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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1435156 - 04/07/03 03:51 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

How about periodic global climate fluctuations? There is good evidence that this occurs, any honest scientist will admit it.

True, any honest astronomer will tell you that orbital dynamics play a role in long term climate change - especially the precession of the equinoxes, which has a 22,000 year cycle that has been linked to periodic ice ages. People think that the Earth's orbit is fixed, but the eccentricity, the degree and direction of tilt all have periodic cycles.

heres some info:
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/clisci100ka.html
you can find plenty more, just do a search for 'precession + climate'

Environmentalists are generally nice and sincere, but I don't think there exists a less informed group of people. Aren't these the same people who warned us in the seventies about the coming ice age?
"the sky is falling!!! the sky is falling!!!"

It might be, but not necessarily because of human activity. We are at the mercy of the Earth and Sun and orbital mechanics.



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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1435286 - 04/07/03 05:21 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

It would be interesting to know who sponsored/funded this research.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1435289 - 04/07/03 05:23 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

We'll start with you, from now on you should accept no payment or any compensation for any work you do. Don't be a hypocrite, everything you do from now on should be done gratis. Lead by example, Ghandi did.




Greed is the problem not profit.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1435294 - 04/07/03 05:33 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It's a good time to be a gardener? Increased crop yields? The CO2 levels 100 years ago were abnormally low by earth history standards, but they might be going back up to normal? I don't know. What are your scientifically verifiable conclusions? Is it possible that this might actually be a good thing?







If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Shit, I suppose we might get lucky, and correct some imbalance that nature overlooked. But I don't think the odds on that are very good.

Besides, there's no end in sight. Is there? We're set to burn off all the recoverable oil in the planet. The same oil that took how many millions of years to form is to be burned off in a brief instant comparatively. Rapidly changing the atmosphere in the process. My gut feeling on this is that it's probably not a good thing.



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1435438 - 04/07/03 08:24 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I suppose we might get lucky, and correct some imbalance that nature overlooked.




Well that would mean nature hadnt overlooked it and had in fact corrected it unless of course you are saying that humans arent a part of nature!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1435715 - 04/07/03 11:47 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

RG, I understand your point but from my experience I don't think this was quite the thing Alex was trying to convey.

Then you should try not to confuse reality with personal prejudice. Rail Guns point is exactly what I was stating.

His usual rhetoric involves a vehement opposition to free enterprise and lacks the reasonableness of your interpretation.

What is unreasonable about the simple statement "You can make profit without destroying the planet"  :confused: Explain please. 


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Xlea321]
    #1435751 - 04/07/03 12:03 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I've read that erupting volcanoes produce as much pollution as we do. or something.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Xlea321]
    #1435884 - 04/07/03 01:07 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

... you should try not to confuse reality with personal prejudice. Rail Guns point is exactly what I was stating.



My apologies, my perception of your way of thinking is based upon many readings of your statements in different threads.  I had no indication that your opinions had changed.

Quote:

What is unreasonable about the simple statement "You can make profit without destroying the planet"  :confused: Explain please.   



Nothing, I agree with that statement.  In my response to Rail_Gun I was referrring to your prior statement and my previous experiences encountering your rhetorical flourishes regarding the profit motive and business in general.  This has set the tone for my current perceptions of statements that you make.  Again, I apologize if I misread you, experiences color perception.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1435911 - 04/07/03 01:23 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If it ain't broke don't fix it?



Is it broke? I never said that people shouldn't reduce pollution, to me it is a given that they should. However, I take issue with pop science and knee jerk reactions to important issues. Policy based on bad science or erroneous conclusions can very well do more harm than good.

Quote:

Shit, I suppose we might get lucky, and correct some imbalance that nature overlooked. But I don't think the odds on that are very good.



You appear to assume that all consequences of human action are negative. I make no such assumptions. Many things humans do have what I would consider negative results, many things humans do have good results. I prefer not to jump to ill informed conclusions.

Quote:

Besides, there's no end in sight. Is there?



Yes there is. All activity of life forms that rely on finite resources or result in the destruction of said organisms environment are by nature self-limiting. Conditions of scarcity and pollution will force changes in human behavior, we have already seen this process begin and it will accelerate in the future. Humans should follow their capacity for rational thought to address these things, not give in to emotionalism and blind reaction to fears.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (04/07/03 01:27 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1436324 - 04/07/03 03:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Well done!

And as an American Native I am VERY protective of the environment.

And I still agree with you.

(Sorry about the silly picture)

Cheers,


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Offlinediggitydankman
No longer aCannabisConnoisseur

Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Michgan
Last seen: 18 years, 19 days
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1436675 - 04/07/03 05:48 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

What the scientists do not tell anyone is that as the temperature on earth increases, the ozone layer recovers.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1436688 - 04/07/03 05:55 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Bring back mc donalds styraphome containers!!!, the cardboard absorbs too much grease... :tongue:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1437534 - 04/07/03 10:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Pop science? Ill informed conclusions?

Your 'end in sight' is us being forced to adapt cuz there's no time left. Sounds like learning the hard way.

What's wrong with an ounce of prevention?



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1437676 - 04/07/03 11:38 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Can we please not confuse Global Warming with environmental or ecological pollution. Everyone wants clean air and water.

Glabal warming people say that greenhouse gases are responsible for climate change. The facts say otherwise.



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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1437891 - 04/08/03 01:02 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Pop science? Ill informed conclusions?



Do you have any verifiable facts on the matter? I posted an article that brought up some valid points.

Quote:

Your 'end in sight' is us being forced to adapt cuz there's no time left. Sounds like learning the hard way.



We are already learning and adapting. Pollution controls are MUCH greater than when I was a kid, there are CAFE standards for fuel efficiency. Additionally, scarcity or disruptions in the flow of crude have historically and consistently led to higher fuel prices at the gas pumps, this acts to discourage consumption. Homes are better insulated. Today's household appliances use a fraction of the energy of the machines they replaced. Electricity generating windmills have sprung up on desert landscapes, many in the area where I live have installed solar panels on their roofs (unheard of when I was a child). The advance of the information age has reduced the need for transportation in many areas of life, we CAN persuade others of this reality and adopt behaviors that reflect it as well. Change is happening, it will not be complete overnight, each one of us has a role to advance it through our individual actions and persuasive arguments with our fellow human beings. By you expressing your concerns and having this dialogue you are prompting others to investigate and think about the subject.

Quote:

What's wrong with an ounce of prevention?



Nothing, but it must be properly applied. Would you like your doctor to prescribe a regime of chemo therapy as an 'ounce of prevention' before he diagnoses your ailment? If you are uncertain of the causes, how do you know that your 'ounce of prevention' will even work? What are the various costs of any proposed 'ounce of prevention?' Will this prevention put people out of work, lead to great economic dislocation and hardship ultimately creating a backlash against your crusade without even address the root cause? If people can't feed or house their families because they've been put out of work by overzealous environmental regulations, do you think they'll give two shits about the environmental movement except as an enemy of their lives and freedom?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Evolving]
    #1438000 - 04/08/03 01:44 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Additionally, scarcity or disruptions in the flow of crude have historically and consistently led to higher fuel prices at the gas pumps, this acts to discourage consumption

Do you have any evidence for this? There are millions more cars on the road now than there were 30 years ago.

The advance of the information age has reduced the need for transportation in many areas of life

See above point.

All activity of life forms that rely on finite resources or result in the destruction of said organisms environment are by nature self-limiting

So your policy is to keep on destroying the amazon rainforest until scarcity of trees prevents us from chopping anymore down? That's certainly a novel approach to conservation.

I think most of us would prefer carbonhoots philosophy - don't chop it down in the first place.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Xlea321]
    #1438010 - 04/08/03 01:48 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Do you have any evidence for this? There are millions more cars on the road now than there were 30 years ago.




Take Econ101. It is simple supply and demand. People will drive less as the price of driving goes up.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: z@z.com]
    #1438031 - 04/08/03 01:56 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Well i'd do a bit more reading about the subject first.

Gas is 3 to 4 times more expensive in the UK than the US and the car ownership is still increasing every year. So even if gas prices in america triple to something appoaching the price in the UK car ownership will keep increasing.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Xlea321]
    #1438034 - 04/08/03 01:57 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Car ownership or gas consumption per car is going up. You can own a car and not drive much. Hell, I do it.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Global Warming, Facts Challenge Hysteria [Re: Xlea321]
    #1438165 - 04/08/03 03:11 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Additionally, scarcity or disruptions in the flow of crude have historically and consistently led to higher fuel prices at the gas pumps, this acts to discourage consumption

Do you have any evidence for this? There are millions more cars on the road now than there were 30 years ago.



The oil embargo of 1973. This nearly destroyed the American automotive industry as people started buying more fuel efficient cars from the Japanese. At that time American made cars consumed more fuel on average than they do today.

Quote:

The advance of the information age has reduced the need for transportation in many areas of life

See above point.



One word, TELECOMMUTING. My wife and I both work from home. I work for clients all over the United States. My wife has done work for companies all over the United States, The Netherlands and Belgium. The nearest grocery store is 10 miles away, we have one car that is driven once a week to do shopping. The key phrase here is "has reduced the need for transportation." Unfortunately, many people lack the imagination to realize this and have entered the Information Age with an Industrial Age mentality.

Quote:

All activity of life forms that rely on finite resources or result in the destruction of said organisms environment are by nature self-limiting

So your policy is to keep on destroying the amazon rainforest until scarcity of trees prevents us from chopping anymore down? That's certainly a novel approach to conservation.



Did I state this? NO. In typical fashion you are unable to grasp the point which I have explicitly laid out and attempt to derail the topic by going off on a tangent. Hint #1: look at the topic of this thread. Hint #2: pay attention. Hint #3: keep an open mind.

Quote:

I think most of us...



Wow, speculation and an appeal to popularity.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (04/08/03 11:37 AM)


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