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Invisiblegzuf
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Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34
    #14331931 - 04/22/11 06:38 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Are these laws necessary, in your opinion, and does a hate crime have to specifically involve minority group (gays, blacks, muslims, mentally handicapped) or can it be vice versa?

I was just thinking about it, I saw a news story half way through about a guy out west who tried to bomb a MLK parade route and he's getting charged, among many many other things, with a hate crime. It made me curious, because I figure this guy has a thousand other charges anyway - especially in this day and age where they throw everything and see what sticks.. So is the hate crime law specifically necessary? I've never seen anyone charged solely with a hate crime; it seems you have to be pretty obvious in your attack and it be one that did or potentially could have hurt/killed/maimed many. Or perhaps that is precisely the answer. Another law to stick?

discuss :sun:


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OfflineYacub
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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: gzuf]
    #14331936 - 04/22/11 06:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Hate crime laws are unnecessary since they involve doing something that was already illegal and covered by the law to begin with. They were intended to give certain groups of people more protection under the law than others.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: gzuf]
    #14331944 - 04/22/11 06:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Are these laws necessary, in your opinion




Yes, its an aggrevating condition.

Quote:

does a hate crime have to specifically involve minority group




In my view, no. If a black gay muslim assaults you because of his deep seated hatred against white people, it should be considered a hate crime.

To me, coming to violence because of hatred against a group equals a hate crime. Its the motivation that counts, its to give haters who cant control their urges and extra shove of prison time and to acknowledge that the age of haters is over as far as the law is concerned.

Beat someone up because you disagree with them or want their wallet, not because you intensely hate their societal group with no real provocation.


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InvisibleApollyphelion
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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: Yacub]
    #14331952 - 04/22/11 06:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I like the idea of hate crimes, because racist and bigotry should be looked down on, in all forms, and that goes for the law too. Whites don't need laws protecting them because

IT IS AWESOME AND GREAT TO BE WHITE IN THE WESTERN WORLD.

If everyone was treated equally, we wouldn't have affirmative action, hate crime laws, etc. Hate crime laws are basically white people calling out other white people, which is good.


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OfflineYacub
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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: Asante]
    #14331956 - 04/22/11 06:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

In my view, no. If a black gay muslim assaults you because of his deep seated hatred against white people, it should be considered a hate crime.




It doesn't work that way in America. These laws were passed here with intent towards double standards.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: Yacub]
    #14331959 - 04/22/11 06:51 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Then they should change.


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OfflineAntiEverything
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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: Apollyphelion]
    #14331998 - 04/22/11 07:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Apollyphelion said:
I like the idea of hate crimes, because racist and bigotry should be looked down on, in all forms, and that goes for the law too. Whites don't need laws protecting them because

IT IS AWESOME AND GREAT TO BE WHITE IN THE WESTERN WORLD.

If everyone was treated equally, we wouldn't have affirmative action, hate crime laws, etc. Hate crime laws are basically white people calling out other white people, which is good.




the need for compensating the disadvantages that minorities recieve that are intrinsic to society (all of society, specifically democratic society) precludes the need for absolute racial equality, social and infrastructural equity is more important. the point isn't to overarch all laws and customs to unify all culture, instead to recognize and compensate for any disadvantage the minority culture recieves. black ppl have high blood pressure? technically its racist not to provide cheap health care for blacks with heart problems.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: AntiEverything]
    #14332030 - 04/22/11 07:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What do you think gives black people high blood pressure? In Africa they dont have it much.

The frustrations of dealing with racist society are a major culprit, often economically motivated poor food choices are another.


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OfflineAntiEverything
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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: Asante]
    #14332056 - 04/22/11 07:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
What do you think gives black people high blood pressure? In Africa they dont have it much.

The frustrations of dealing with racist society are a major culprit, often economically motivated poor food choices are another.



i believe it had something to do with an ancient cultural event where large populations of africans had to migrate over salt flats and only those with higher blood pressure survived

regardless, dealing with how society is structured is basically my entire point. racism on a personal level does not function in the 2010+ era(especially in urban areas). those still under the veil of their own esoteric culture may still be racist, southerners, fundementalist muslims, etc. if you are still "racist" it's only because you are afraid and ignorant, the cataract of otherness is blinding them, and they are looking thru the spectacles of their own culture (not true seeing glasses instead a fishbowl), and will be seen as more  than just an outcast to all of society- these people are the new hated minority, to the point where anyone who is "racist" would easily themselves be discriminated against. this type of defense mechanism has served to imbedd racist policies into american lawmaking. if we can lash out against racism and hatred on a personal level, we have won the battle, ignoring the actual and more severe type of racism....

...it's institutional discrimination that continues to disadvantage minorities- this goes beyond racial boundaries. ALL of our rights are being stepped on with the marijuana laws- not to mention how racist the drug war implicitly is and always was (not just the way it has become, but literally the way it was created- watch the exile nation project)

Edited by AntiEverything (04/22/11 07:34 AM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: gzuf]
    #14332157 - 04/22/11 08:15 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Im not sure violent crimes can be committed without hate... :shrug:  Furthermore, hate without violence is legal.  Or at least, it should be.

I see hate crimes as a type of affirmative action, aka state sponsored racism.  They don't apply equally to all races and they aren't intended to.

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OfflineAntiEverything
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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: DieCommie]
    #14332181 - 04/22/11 08:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

state sponsored racism?

if anything the state needs to do MORE in the way of affirmative action and helping out minorities.

most people are discriminatory against minorities and have no idea.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: AntiEverything]
    #14332192 - 04/22/11 08:24 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Bullshit.  That ideology of supporting state sponsored racism is what causes and feeds the cycle of hate and bigotry.  Its just another manifestation of the same problem.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: DieCommie]
    #14332204 - 04/22/11 08:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Im not sure violent crimes can be committed without hate... :shrug:





Quite possible. And normally, that hate is directed against the individual. If its a generic hatred against a race for instance its a special case.

Theres a big difference between someone killing another because they raped his sister, and an Asian who beats a white guy to death for being white.

Quote:

They don't apply equally to all races




Then that should change.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: Asante]
    #14332219 - 04/22/11 08:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Theres a big difference between someone killing another because they raped his sister, and an Asian who beats a white guy to death for being white.




I dont see any effective difference between those to.  In each case, if guilty, the offender cannot be trusted to live free in society any longer.  Beyond safeguarding individuals and society, you are just seeking out vengeance which is not an effective way to run a legal system IMO.

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OfflineAntiEverything
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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: DieCommie]
    #14332221 - 04/22/11 08:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Bullshit.  That ideology of supporting state sponsored racism is what causes and feeds the cycle of hate and bigotry.  Its just another manifestation of the same problem.




no, the ignorance surrounding the nature of institutional racism is what feeds into the cycle of hate and bigotry.

could you please explain what is "racist" about affirmative action?

ill explain how you are being racist (again) by taking an absolute stance against it while providing no analysis


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You are at once
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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: DieCommie]
    #14332222 - 04/22/11 08:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Are you for or against capital punishment?


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OfflineAntiEverything
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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: DieCommie]
    #14332231 - 04/22/11 08:34 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Theres a big difference between someone killing another because they raped his sister, and an Asian who beats a white guy to death for being white.




I dont see any effective difference between those to.  In each case, if guilty, the offender cannot be trusted to live free in society any longer.  Beyond safeguarding individuals and society, you are just seeking out vengeance which is not an effective way to run a legal system IMO.



the effective difference is one murder was caused b/c of something atrocious someone did and the other was caused simply because of the way the person was born

you honestly don't believe there needs to be a clear legal brightline that seperates the two?

"well the legal system is broken and always has been, why try to fix it now...." simple conservatist viewpoint


--------------------
You are at once
both
the quiet
and
the confusion
of my heart.
-Franz Kafka

Edited by AntiEverything (04/22/11 08:36 AM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: Asante]
    #14332238 - 04/22/11 08:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

could you please explain what is "racist" about affirmative action?



Give me a break... Do you really not know?  Affirmative action gives certain groups of people preferential treatment based on their race (and sometimes gender).  That is the very nature of racism.


Quote:

Are you for or against capital punishment?



Meh, I dont know.  I am philosophically for but practically against.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: AntiEverything]
    #14332247 - 04/22/11 08:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

AntiEverything said:
you honestly don't believe there needs to be a clear legal brightline that seperates the two?




Yes I do.  Justice should be blind and it should seek to safeguard society and compensate victims - not dole out vengeance for perceived differences between causes of violence.

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OfflineAntiEverything
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Re: Hate Crimes and You vol. 3:34 [Re: DieCommie]
    #14332253 - 04/22/11 08:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

could you please explain what is "racist" about affirmative action?



Give me a break... Do you really not know?  Affirmative action gives certain groups of people preferential treatment based on their race (and sometimes gender).  That is the very nature of racism.


Quote:

Are you for or against capital punishment?



Meh, I dont know.  I am philosophically for but practically against.




but when certain groups are predisposed to disadvantaged treatment - from birth, are we not just being discriminatory by not helping them out?

ill put it this way, you see a crippled person struggling to get up the stairs, would you consider it discriminatory to build a ramp for him? even tho he IS getting special treatment.


--------------------
You are at once
both
the quiet
and
the confusion
of my heart.
-Franz Kafka

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