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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa
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Do you love or despise capitalism?
#14319392 - 04/19/11 07:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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We all know it has its +/-.
Any thoughts on the matter?
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sjfrockerdude
Dead Inside




Registered: 04/12/11
Posts: 82
Loc: Hell
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Patlal]
#14319409 - 04/19/11 07:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm going to say its a hell of a lot better then socialism.
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"It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied. Better to be Socrates dissatisfied then a fool satisfied. And if the fool or the pig are of different opinion, it is because they only know their side of the question." John Stuart Mill
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dummy
I am you and what I see is me


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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: sjfrockerdude]
#14319497 - 04/19/11 08:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i love or despise people. i think our current monetary/economic system has potential, we're just fucking things up.
-------------------- People never seem to know what they least suspect is coming next.
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: dummy]
#14319502 - 04/19/11 08:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Eh, I think the best system is one with both capitalist and socialist elements.
Capitalism is good to an extent, but it needs to have some degree of control to prevent corporations from becoming the government, as we've seen happen.
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RonaldFuckingPaul
Our Dear Leader



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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: NetDiver]
#14319509 - 04/19/11 08:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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venus project FTW
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

Registered: 04/12/06
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Patlal]
#14319513 - 04/19/11 08:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I know that reading 'Do you love or despise capitalism' next to 'Patlal' looked at first to be 'Do you love or despise capitalism' next to 'Partial' made me smile.
You are probably right, in that context. Partially.
~Monk
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Devlish2
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Registered: 12/06/06
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Loc: The Astral Realm 16,376AD
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The problem with Capitalism is that government control of businesses is so limited that it lets a few businesses dominate their industry and then they become able to make the rules for their industry.
Quote:
reeferaddict69 said: venus project FTW
totally dude
-------------------- [ ] Space is the place
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Mad_Larkin

Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Patlal]
#14319554 - 04/19/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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All ideologies are the enemies of human freedom. Regards, TMK
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#14319577 - 04/19/11 08:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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What about the ideology of human freedom?
What about the human freedom manifested by use of ideology as a precept?
~Monk
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Devlish2
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 3,641
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Quote:
reeferaddict69 said: venus project FTW
Jacques Fresco is a fucking saint. 
It's time to free humanity!
-------------------- [ ] Space is the place
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DungeonMaster



Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 436
Loc: TX, USA
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: numonkei]
#14319593 - 04/19/11 08:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I love Capitalism, but despise Crony-Capitalism.
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Mad_Larkin

Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: numonkei]
#14319596 - 04/19/11 08:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
numonkei said: What about the ideology of human freedom?
What about the human freedom manifested by use of ideology as a precept?
~Monk
I don't think human freedom is an ideology. It's a basic right.
Most ideologies take away more freedoms than they grant.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Patlal]
#14319600 - 04/19/11 08:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I like capitalism, I'd really love it a lot if I was on the bill gates end of the pay scale
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sjfrockerdude
Dead Inside




Registered: 04/12/11
Posts: 82
Loc: Hell
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#14319604 - 04/19/11 08:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: I like capitalism, I'd really love it a lot if I was on the bill gates end of the pay scale
Quoted for truth.
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"It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied. Better to be Socrates dissatisfied then a fool satisfied. And if the fool or the pig are of different opinion, it is because they only know their side of the question." John Stuart Mill
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Devlish2
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#14319611 - 04/19/11 08:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: I like capitalism, I'd really love it a lot if I was on the bill gates end of the pay scale
Capitalism, stealing other people's ideas and making a fortune off of them.
-------------------- [ ] Space is the place
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sjfrockerdude
Dead Inside




Registered: 04/12/11
Posts: 82
Loc: Hell
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Devlish2]
#14319630 - 04/19/11 08:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Socialism, stealing other peoples money then blaming them for the economy.
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"It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied. Better to be Socrates dissatisfied then a fool satisfied. And if the fool or the pig are of different opinion, it is because they only know their side of the question." John Stuart Mill
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#14319636 - 04/19/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad_Larkin said:
Quote:
numonkei said: What about the ideology of human freedom?
What about the human freedom manifested by use of ideology as a precept?
~Monk
I don't think human freedom is an ideology. It's a basic right.
Most ideologies take away more freedoms than they grant.
Most of human history would argue that general freedom is NOT a basic right. Most of human history shows those with the strong ideology tend to impose against general freedom and feel merit for such. Cuz of the ideology.
...Wait, what the fuck is freedom?
~Monk
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AntiEverything
im not a doctor



Registered: 07/07/06
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: numonkei]
#14319647 - 04/19/11 08:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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fuck capitalism. its main constituents are 1.) ignorant 2.) charity cases 3.) worker bees. the rest just smoke blunts at the top on fat stacks of cash. ie; obama party train
-------------------- You are at once both the quiet and the confusion of my heart. -Franz Kafka
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STIKAROUND
Rio



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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: numonkei]
#14319663 - 04/19/11 08:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Capitalist market based societies like the US are what keep us consuming and program us to be materialistic. How could there be any good in this? We are taught that the fast paced, instant gratification based, and luxurious lifestyles we live are neccesary in fact it is this beahavior is not only dehumanizing it is literally destroying the planet.
Capitalism = Bad
-------------------- The s GAIA
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

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I bet the rich use a lot of vaporizers instead of blunts.
 
~Monk
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STIKAROUND
Rio



Registered: 06/30/10
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VENUS PROJECT!!!
HOLY SHIT THIS IS AMAZING!!!
-------------------- The s GAIA
Edited by STIKAROUND (04/19/11 08:39 PM)
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Devlish2
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 3,641
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: numonkei]
#14319687 - 04/19/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
STIKAROUND said: Capitalist market based societies like the US are what keep us consuming and program us to be materialistic. How could there be any good in this? We are taught that the fast paced, instant gratification based, and luxurious lifestyles we live are neccesary in fact it is this beahavior is not only dehumanizing it is literally destroying the planet.
Capitalism = Bad
Well said. The whole capitalist culture is mind numbingly stupid and absolutely disgusting.
-------------------- [ ] Space is the place
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Devlish2
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 3,641
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: STIKAROUND]
#14319692 - 04/19/11 08:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
STIKAROUND said: VENUS PROJECT!!!
HOLY SHIT THIS IS AMAZING!!!
I agree with this man.
-------------------- [ ] Space is the place
Edited by Devlish2 (04/19/11 10:07 PM)
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: STIKAROUND]
#14319693 - 04/19/11 08:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
STIKAROUND said: Capitalist market based societies like the US are what keep us consuming and program us to be materialistic. How could there be any good in this? We are taught that the fast paced, instant gratification based, and luxurious lifestyles we live are neccesary in fact it is this beahavior is not only dehumanizing it is literally destroying the planet.
Capitalism = Bad
I'm not saying it's generally a good thing, but historically people are pretty materialistic, or at least the materialistic end up writing and printing the history books.
I don't think greed is dehumanizing, it's one of the dominant factors of human existence and plays a role in our evolution from bacteria...unless the bacteria wrote the history books and all this shit is conspiracy...which is greedy.
See what the bacteria is sayin?
~Monk
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Devlish2]
#14319706 - 04/19/11 08:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Devlish2 said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: I like capitalism, I'd really love it a lot if I was on the bill gates end of the pay scale
Capitalism, stealing other people's ideas and making a fortune off of them.
define stealing because most people are compensated for those ideas or are under contract that allows the employer to retain any ideas developed on their time and some are unable to develop any similar ideas for a certain time period after employment is terminated... no one forces them to sign the contract, they do so because it was their choice
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DungeonMaster



Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 436
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: numonkei]
#14319711 - 04/19/11 08:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes, economic freedom is very bad. We should implement bureaucratic over-sight to help us get rid of this pernicious evil.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: STIKAROUND]
#14319717 - 04/19/11 08:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
STIKAROUND said: Capitalist market based societies like the US are what keep us consuming and program us to be materialistic. How could there be any good in this? We are taught that the fast paced, instant gratification based, and luxurious lifestyles we live are neccesary in fact it is this beahavior is not only dehumanizing it is literally destroying the planet.
Capitalism = Bad
no one is being programmed, it's human nature that kicks in and desires things
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: DungeonMaster]
#14319729 - 04/19/11 08:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Look, you can't trust a dude named Milton.
...For real.
~Monk
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nalyudi
he runs about



Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 2,256
Loc: Oak Savanna Region
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I support capitalism with some serious convictions. My beliefs are based in thoughts around resource ownership. I think people should have individual land rights, but the inter connectivity of ecology and hydrology make a landowners actions more wide spread than they know; meaning that chemicals a person put in their water effects a much larger population. I support capitalism with necessary regulation to protect the rights of others.
Disappointingly capitalism in the US is starting to look like fascism
Of course you can have freedom and capitalsim! It's the basis of today's classical republicanism and the libertarian party!
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DungeonMaster



Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 436
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: numonkei]
#14319762 - 04/19/11 08:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
STIKAROUND said: Capitalist market based societies like the US are what keep us consuming and program us to be materialistic. How could there be any good in this? We are taught that the fast paced, instant gratification based, and luxurious lifestyles we live are neccesary in fact it is this beahavior is not only dehumanizing it is literally destroying the planet.
Capitalism = Bad
no one is being programmed, it's human nature that kicks in and desires things
Human nature, in general, is susceptible to being programmed.
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STIKAROUND
Rio



Registered: 06/30/10
Posts: 129
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: numonkei]
#14319786 - 04/19/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Monk I did not know it was all LIES until around the 17th year of my life. The way I started the deconditioning from the ideologies of the bacteria (that infect the human mind) was when I met an elderly artist who introduced me to the PF tek. Ever since then the truth(or what I perceive to be the truth) has made me hate my cultural restraints and the way things are.
RIP T Rizzo, Aldous Huxley, Terence Mckenna, Bill Hicks, and The Mushroom Goddess
-------------------- The s GAIA
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AntiEverything
im not a doctor



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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: DungeonMaster]
#14319793 - 04/19/11 08:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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im always thinking.....i could strike it rich by tricking everyone into something stupid. like billy mays did.
then i remember, when you are rich, you just buy coke like billy mays . id rather be a pothead.
-------------------- You are at once both the quiet and the confusion of my heart. -Franz Kafka
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Mad_Larkin

Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: numonkei]
#14319794 - 04/19/11 08:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
numonkei said: ...Wait, what the fuck is freedom?
~Monk
I'd say freedom is summed up with the phrase: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
In capitalism, freedom is the free market, laissez-faire trade, the freedom to make money. And as such is puts limitations on the freedoms of people without money.
Real freedom is the ability to do whatever you want, laws of physics permitting. To do whatever you desire. Good and bad. The only real rules that confine a human being are the limits of possibility itself.
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: STIKAROUND]
#14319798 - 04/19/11 08:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, it was.
Sorry.

~Monk
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AntiEverything
im not a doctor



Registered: 07/07/06
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: numonkei]
#14319814 - 04/19/11 09:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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if you were following the manson thread you would know we are all just one anyway
freedom of the mind, not the body. communism all the way. if they gave us opiates and LSD i would totally be down.
-------------------- You are at once both the quiet and the confusion of my heart. -Franz Kafka
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

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I got opiates and LSD from a communist once.
Good stuff too, fentanyl pops are fucking delicious.
Quote:
Real freedom is the ability to do whatever you want, laws of physics permitting. To do whatever you desire. Good and bad. The only real rules that confine a human being are the limits of possibility itself.
So what would fake freedom be then? What you posit seems very difficult to imagine on a holistic level, as it's never been recorded to happen. And would that involve the freedom to not be free?
Could an infinite regress be free? Or is it given the false illusion of freedom while being presented only the option of regress and coerced into believing sincerely that this is the route to take, this infinite regress?
~Monk
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Synesthetic
Ratings go in journal.



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Capitalism had its uses, but now that civilization has grown so much and our resources are dwindling, it's time for a new plan. Capitalism only works if things are constantly being consumed, and there's no way to create a sustainable system out of constant consumption.
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nalyudi
he runs about



Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 2,256
Loc: Oak Savanna Region
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#14319837 - 04/19/11 09:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad_Larkin said:
Quote:
numonkei said: ...Wait, what the fuck is freedom?
~Monk
I'd say freedom is summed up with the phrase: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
In capitalism, freedom is the free market, laissez-faire trade, the freedom to make money. And as such is puts limitations on the freedoms of people without money.
Real freedom is the ability to do whatever you want, laws of physics permitting. To do whatever you desire. Good and bad. The only real rules that confine a human being are the limits of possibility itself.
The way you describe freedom is what I would call freedom of movement and action. I have complete freedom to what whatever I please, but so does everyone else so a line must be drawn at infringing on the freedom of others....or you are simply being your own little fascist dictator doing as you please without regard to responsibility or the outcomes of ones actions
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DungeonMaster



Registered: 12/17/10
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Quote:
AntiEverything said: if you were following the manson thread you would know we are all just one anyway
freedom of the mind, not the body. communism all the way. if they gave us opiates and LSD i would totally be down.
Oh yes, Communism is a lovely thing. Price controls have worked EVERY-TIME they've been implemented. Commissars ALWAYS have the people's interest at heart. The Ukrainian famine of 1932-33 was the evil capitalists' fault. Communism ALWAYS works.
Karl was joking when said this (he had to be amirite?): "One thing is certain, that I am no Marxist." Letter from Marx to Engels dated Sept. 30, 1882.
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Mad_Larkin

Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: nalyudi]
#14319855 - 04/19/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
nalyudi said: ....or you are simply being your own little fascist dictator doing as you please without regard to responsibility or the outcomes of ones actions
Yep.
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nalyudi
he runs about



Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 2,256
Loc: Oak Savanna Region
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#14319865 - 04/19/11 09:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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good luck not being cut down in your pursuit of freedom
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Mad_Larkin

Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: nalyudi]
#14319871 - 04/19/11 09:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't particularly want to rape and murder so I don't think that'll be a problem.
What's your idea of freedom, nalyudi?
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STIKAROUND
Rio



Registered: 06/30/10
Posts: 129
Loc: Mid-West
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#14319903 - 04/19/11 09:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
STIKAROUND said: Capitalist market based societies like the US are what keep us consuming and program us to be materialistic. How could there be any good in this? We are taught that the fast paced, instant gratification based, and luxurious lifestyles we live are neccesary in fact it is this beahavior is not only dehumanizing it is literally destroying the planet.
Capitalism = Bad
no one is being programmed, it's human nature that kicks in and desires things
No one is being programmed? Is this a serious response? Of course its in our nature to desire things but we are domesticated overly intelligent apes who in the face of shiny and flashy new "things' cant resist because that is all we have been exposed to.
Westernizied Capitalist style culture armed with television the ultimate organizer of content and distibuator of content and being that the are more tv's than people here in the states and those tv's are on a majority of our day. Your telling me some how some way none of that content did not manage to enter your very mind and alter your perception of reality beacause by observing my slef for 19 years and the people around me its seems to be quite the opposite.
-------------------- The s GAIA
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scienceguy
Instrument



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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#14319909 - 04/19/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Freedom starts between the ears." Edward Abbey
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nalyudi
he runs about



Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 2,256
Loc: Oak Savanna Region
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#14319910 - 04/19/11 09:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Libertarian Capitalists believe individuals should be free to do anything they want, so long as they do not infringe upon the equal rights of others.
They further believe that the only legitimate use of force, whether public or private, is to protect those rights."
These are the values the (US) founding fathers took from Fracis Bacon and John Locke in developing the constitution and bill of right. But differences in interpretation have turned the political system into a shit storm
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DungeonMaster



Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 436
Loc: TX, USA
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: STIKAROUND]
#14319935 - 04/19/11 09:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Edward Bernays wrote a book on it called "Propaganda". Look it up. It is worth the read.
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Blend
afferent orchestra



Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 2,949
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Patlal]
#14319947 - 04/19/11 09:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm strongly against the practice. But whatcanyoudo
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STIKAROUND
Rio



Registered: 06/30/10
Posts: 129
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: DungeonMaster]
#14319956 - 04/19/11 09:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ill be sure to look it up. You should look up The Lies My Teacher Told Me.
-------------------- The s GAIA
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nalyudi
he runs about



Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 2,256
Loc: Oak Savanna Region
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: STIKAROUND]
#14319964 - 04/19/11 09:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
STIKAROUND said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
STIKAROUND said: Capitalist market based societies like the US are what keep us consuming and program us to be materialistic. How could there be any good in this? We are taught that the fast paced, instant gratification based, and luxurious lifestyles we live are neccesary in fact it is this beahavior is not only dehumanizing it is literally destroying the planet.
Capitalism = Bad
no one is being programmed, it's human nature that kicks in and desires things
No one is being programmed? Is this a serious response? Of course its in our nature to desire things but we are domesticated overly intelligent apes who in the face of shiny and flashy new "things' cant resist because that is all we have been exposed to.
Westernizied Capitalist style culture armed with television the ultimate organizer of content and distibuator of content and being that the are more tv's than people here in the states and those tv's are on a majority of our day. Your telling me some how some way none of that content did not manage to enter your very mind and alter your perception of reality beacause by observing my slef for 19 years and the people around me its seems to be quite the opposite.
I would separate capitalism from consumer culture although they are related. Capitalism provides the incentive for people to develop product progression. Think what life would be like without a washer and dryer. You would have to spend hours hand washing. The point is capitalism has led to you being able to allot time to read, learn, and post on a web forum. Maybe this is a leap idk.
Imagine if 3rd world countries all the sudden had amenities to allot time in a day to read, discuss, and thus progess...maybe.
I consider consumer culture an ego thing more than anything else. Too many believe wealth is the only measure of success.
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Sprezzatura
Virtuoso


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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Patlal]
#14319966 - 04/19/11 09:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Patlal said: We all know it has its +/-.
Any thoughts on the matter?
I think capitalism reflects the nature of human beings more than any other economic system. Competition in a free market has the highest potential for quality outcomes. "Individual ambition serves the common good" ~Adam Smith.
Capitalism FTW
-------------------- Spectaculorum procedere debet
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StaleShrooms
human after all



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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Devlish2]
#14319975 - 04/19/11 09:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Devlish2 said:
Quote:
STIKAROUND said: Capitalist market based societies like the US are what keep us consuming and program us to be materialistic. How could there be any good in this? We are taught that the fast paced, instant gratification based, and luxurious lifestyles we live are neccesary in fact it is this beahavior is not only dehumanizing it is literally destroying the planet.
Capitalism = Bad
Well said. The whole capitalist culture is mind numbingly stupid and absolutely disgusting.
This.
Fuck capitalism.
it encourages greed, cruelty, consumerism, materialism and a compassionless society hell bent on making money any way it can - which almost always includes abusing people and the environment to turn the largest profit possible.
-------------------- Kick is seeing things from a special angle. Kick is momentary freedom from the claims of the aging, cautious, nagging, frightened flesh. Maybe I will find in yage what I was looking for in junk and weed and coke. Yage may be the final fix. ~William S. Burroughs
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DungeonMaster



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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: StaleShrooms]
#14319997 - 04/19/11 09:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
StaleShrooms said:
Quote:
Devlish2 said:
Quote:
STIKAROUND said: Capitalist market based societies like the US are what keep us consuming and program us to be materialistic. How could there be any good in this? We are taught that the fast paced, instant gratification based, and luxurious lifestyles we live are neccesary in fact it is this beahavior is not only dehumanizing it is literally destroying the planet.
Capitalism = Bad
Well said. The whole capitalist culture is mind numbingly stupid and absolutely disgusting.
This.
Fuck capitalism.
it encourages greed, cruelty, consumerism, materialism and a compassionless society hell bent on making money any way it can - which almost always includes abusing people and the environment to turn the largest profit possible.
What is money?
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Sprezzatura
Virtuoso


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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: StaleShrooms]
#14320033 - 04/19/11 09:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Come on, you guys aren't serious are you? That sounds like you're reading from a poorly xeroxed pamphlet distributed by some 'head-up-their-ass' liberal at a college campus protest.
Capitalism is good, it's closer to freedom than any other economic system, my family in Poland can tell you all about how terrible communism is... and just for the record, humans destroy the planet no matter what economic theory they practice.
Materialism, Greed, corruption, destruction etc. aren't the direct result of capitalism, they're the byproduct of human kind.
There are alternative lifestyles to being Materialistic and in a consumer-based society... I think some woman from the message board went to a commune in Hawaii that discourages that sort of ideology and mentality...
Why stay in modern society? No one has a gun to your head telling you to shop at their store, you have the freedom and power to change your own life... yet you remain in the materialistic world? Why?
-------------------- Spectaculorum procedere debet
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DarkMatterOfFact
ZealtheDealforthePill



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Posts: 1,602
Loc: South Cali
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Sprezzatura]
#14320040 - 04/19/11 09:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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this is also in the constitution and is noticeably removed from monuments around D.C.
even though it was held in high respect by the writers of. as in it is what this nation was built upon
"In political philosophy, the right of revolution (or right of rebellion) is the right or duty, variously stated throughout history, of the people of a nation to overthrow a government that acts against their common interests. Belief in this right extends back to ancient China, and it has been used throughout history to justify various rebellions, including the American Revolution and the French Revolution."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_revolution
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Nixon was a asshole. Just look at his biggest creation. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the DEA. Which secretly stands for Demonizing Everyone by Allegations.
Edited by DarkMatterOfFact (04/19/11 09:54 PM)
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STIKAROUND
Rio



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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: nalyudi]
#14320050 - 04/19/11 09:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Think what life would be like without a washer and dryer. You would have to spend hours hand washing."
Exactly this is the way it is supposed to be washing by hand would result in no loss energy tyus resulting in no degradation to the planet.
"Imagine if 3rd world countries all the sudden had amenities to allot time in a day to read, discuss, and thus progess...maybe."
I would not consider it progres I would consider it a leap in the wrong direction. Whose to say a primitive lifestyle is not the correct one. They may not be as literate or analytical as you or I but are they not geniuses? They live in a almost perfect equalibrium with the planet. We consumers in a capitalist society are literally poisoning the planet we taint the air we breath, the water we drink, and degrade the soil to the point of infertility.
-------------------- The s GAIA
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4HO-DMT


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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: NetDiver]
#14320056 - 04/19/11 09:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Samurai Drifter said: Eh, I think the best system is one with both capitalist and socialist elements.
Capitalism is good to an extent, but it needs to have some degree of control to prevent corporations from becoming the government, as we've seen happen.
This sums it up pretty well.
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AntiEverything
im not a doctor



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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: DungeonMaster]
#14320071 - 04/19/11 09:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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money is a representation of labor
but under the paremeters of capitalism it is highly convoluted
-------------------- You are at once both the quiet and the confusion of my heart. -Franz Kafka
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STIKAROUND
Rio



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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Sprezzatura]
#14320101 - 04/19/11 09:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sprezzatura said: Come on, you guys aren't serious are you? That sounds like you're reading from a poorly xeroxed pamphlet distributed by some 'head-up-their-ass' liberal at a college campus protest.
Capitalism is good, it's closer to freedom than any other economic system, my family in Poland can tell you all about how terrible communism is... and just for the record, humans destroy the planet no matter what economic theory they practice.
Materialism, Greed, corruption, destruction etc. aren't the direct result of capitalism, they're the byproduct of human kind.
There are alternative lifestyles to being Materialistic and in a consumer-based society... I think some woman from the message board went to a commune in Hawaii that discourages that sort of ideology and mentality...
Why stay in modern society? No one has a gun to your head telling you to shop at their store, you have the freedom and power to change your own life... yet you remain in the materialistic world? Why?
Im not saying and alternative system such as communism is the correct route Im saying all current systems are so far from correct that the simplist answer is so blurred it cannot be recognized. We were not meant to live within city wall we were not meant to develop this way. We were supposed to be nothing more than aborigines of out designated areas.
-------------------- The s GAIA
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Blend
afferent orchestra



Registered: 08/16/06
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Quote:
Sprezzatura said:
Quote:
Patlal said: We all know it has its /-.
Any thoughts on the matter?
I think capitalism reflects the nature of human beings more than any other economic system. Competition in a free market has the highest potential for quality outcomes. "Individual ambition serves the common good" ~Adam Smith.
Capitalism FTW 
I'm so not up for debate right now, but I've got to at least touch on this....
I think you may be confusing the word 'ambition' with the word 'obligation.' People are obligated to make money to support themselves and their families. This has nothing to do with the 'common good,' it has to do with making money by any means necessary. I'm still baffled how people call our financial system a 'free market.' You did hear about the bailouts, right? And I won't even start on the 'highest potential for quality outcomes' bit, cause I won't be able to quit. I'll just say that in a capitalist economy (and I shudder to even call it an economy, because going by definition, capitalism is closer to an antonym), goods and services of the highest possible quality would not be affordable. Sustainability goes against the very nature of the financial system. The engine of our economy is perpetual consumption, and in order for that to happen, things simply have to break down.
Quote:
Materialism, Greed, corruption, destruction etc. aren't the direct result of capitalism
You really could not be more wrong here.
You can throw your generalizations around all you want, capitalism is textbook insanity.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Patlal]
#14320189 - 04/19/11 10:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Depends how you define capitalism. I support a market economy because central planning has such an abysmal record(which is why I don't support the Venus Project). And even if a centrally planned economy could work, I wouldn't want to live in it. I think a market economy, liberated from monopolistic power, has a wonderful tendency for novelty and creativity.
On the other hand, I think that natural resources, or at least the profits from them, should belong to all people in common. I think land and resource rents need to be used for public finance so that no individual profits from taking what rightly belongs to all of us. So that puts me pretty sharply at odds with modern capitalism.
I also think much of what the financial sector does needs to go away. It's fine to invest in companies to create wealth and then share in their profits, but the whole derivatives fiasco is symptomatic of the way they disguise phantom wealth as real wealth. So basically, the financial sector needs to be a lot smaller than it is. I also don't like the way that money is created privately as debt by for-profit banks, rather than as a public good by a public institution.
And corporate personhood...don't get me started.
I even would like to see wage labor eventually replaced with various models of worker ownership. But I don't think it should be mandated by the state. I think once we have the proper land reform and monetary reform in place, workers will be empowered enough that that sort of thing can evolve on its own.
So basically, with the caveat that I absolutely do not support a centrally planned economy, I'd still have to say I'm not a fan of capitalism.
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Sprezzatura
Virtuoso


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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Blend]
#14320263 - 04/19/11 10:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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What are you doing to live differently? It sounds like you're quite vehemently against the Capitalist system yet your convictions appear to be disregarded in practice.
I like the way society is overall. Corporate bail outs and mass production gone awry may be questionable, but the ability to have a free-market, in the sense that you can start a business and offer an alternative and profit from it and make a living, is awesome to me.
I'll give you an example... Look at the beer companies like Budweiser; these types of companies dominated the beer market for quite some time (companies like Pabst blue Ribbon, Shlitz, etc.) and for a while you figured that was the only type of beer you could drink... what happened? The smaller beer companies, in this free market, started selling 'Craft beers' of higher quality, which sparked a whole movement of small-time beer companies getting on the shelves at local liquor stores... the quality of the beer has gotten better and better and the smaller companies gained so much profits, Budweiser was forced into attempting to create a 'Craft Beer' in 2008 (I believe or 2007) but ultimately failed to gain recognition from a new class of beer drinkers.
It's just one example of the upside of capitalism; it's not all crooked politicians and back stabbing rapacious monsters in suits and ties.
-------------------- Spectaculorum procedere debet
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nalyudi
he runs about



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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: STIKAROUND]
#14320317 - 04/19/11 10:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
STIKAROUND said:
I would not consider it progres I would consider it a leap in the wrong direction. Whose to say a primitive lifestyle is not the correct one. They may not be as literate or analytical as you or I but are they not geniuses? They live in a almost perfect equalibrium with the planet. We consumers in a capitalist society are literally poisoning the planet we taint the air we breath, the water we drink, and degrade the soil to the point of infertility.
You use the term correct, when I think you mean appropriate. Reality is that people were willing to invest and adopt appropriate technologies they could live in harmony with the land. There are permaculture villages in the US...they still use power even if it is solar. Collective knowledge has given us the tools.
Image heavily insulated architecture with an air-tight energy envelope combined with a a geothermal hydronic heating system supplemented by a pellet furnace. The minimal electricity used could be created with solar panels, and the furnace could be fed waste woody debris. All localized energy, hardly any environmental impact, and completely doable.
So yes we could live in the elements with the land or collective knowledge could be used to reduce use and impact, then enjoy our time to recreate!
http://www.aldoleopold.org/legacycenter/ < check this out. i've been here, it's amazing
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4HO-DMT


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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: nalyudi]
#14320384 - 04/19/11 10:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Blend
afferent orchestra



Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 2,949
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Sprezzatura]
#14320415 - 04/19/11 10:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I understand the failures of the practices of capitalism, but I've yet to find a suitable alternative, save for a complete reform of the way society operates. I am guilty of being comfortable in our current paradigm, but I do believe we can do better. In fact, I'm convinced we literally won't have a choice for much longer.
I mostly agree with Silversoul, but I like to dream that a system similar to The Venus Project could work - at least better than capitalism. History doesn't quite agree with the concept, but it seems much saner than capitalism on many levels.
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Salomon
ಠ︵ಠ balance ಠ_ಠ weaver ಠ‿ಠ

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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: 4HO-DMT]
#14320434 - 04/19/11 10:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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spend your life working as a slave of the machine. work for money. money is your fuel, you will do what ever you must to get it because with out it you are powerless. elitism exists in all governments as is human nature. but anarchy isn't the answer either, as becomes chaos. so given the choice between chaos and slavery, the masses choose slavery.
-------------------- EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT
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nalyudi
he runs about



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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: 4HO-DMT]
#14320454 - 04/19/11 10:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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read my OP and appropriate tech does not use oil, as a by product in manufacturing some will be used but never as a primary fuel.
As far as I am concerned oil is dead in our future, but it will take time to ween off the addiction until biomass methanol or cellulose ethanol really take hold. Starch (corn) ethanol is not grown with a stewardship ethic, but things like switchgrass and hemp provide an enormous amount feed stocks and is normally cultivated in a way that does rape the land
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4HO-DMT


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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Salomon]
#14320458 - 04/19/11 10:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Salomon said: spend your life working as a slave of the machine. work for money. money is your fuel, you will do what ever you must to get it because with out it you are powerless. elitism exists in all governments as is human nature. but anarchy isn't the answer either, as becomes chaos. so given the choice between chaos and slavery, the masses choose slavery.
qft
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Blend
afferent orchestra



Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 2,949
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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: 4HO-DMT]
#14320555 - 04/19/11 11:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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physicist said: capitalism? Read this:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/innovation/04/19/oil.sands.extreme.energy/index.html?iref=allsearch
+5 for that. It's a terrifying place we'll soon find ourselves in at this rate. I can only hope people aren't still quoting Adam Smith and praising capitalism when they're working full time just to be able to buy enough water for themselves. But my doubt is definitely heavier.
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Devlish2
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Salomon]
#14320699 - 04/19/11 11:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Salomon said: spend your life working as a slave of the machine. work for money. money is your fuel, you will do what ever you must to get it because with out it you are powerless. elitism exists in all governments as is human nature. but anarchy isn't the answer either, as becomes chaos. so given the choice between chaos and slavery, the masses choose slavery.
-------------------- [ ] Space is the place
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realfuzzhead



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Re: Do you love or despise capitalism? [Re: Devlish2]
#14320723 - 04/19/11 11:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I could easily write a short book on my thoughts on capatalism
they basically aggregate to " it has its +/-'s"
I love the fact that it allows for specialization of the work force It has allowed for a substantial increase in the standard of living It has allowed science to progress and obtain the precision nesessary to get to the amazing point it is at today yadada
It virtually runs on exploitation 20% of the people own over 80% of the wealth. Enviromental issues Corruption
etc
to high to elaborate and I talked about this subject in 5 hours of classes today
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