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Fear.Loathing
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Registered: 04/17/11
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Layering Horse-poo
#14316629 - 04/19/11 10:59 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hey guys,
So I was reading this tek on horse poo prep by agar: http://www.shroomery.org/8397/Horse-poo-substrate-preparation
I was originally thinking of using the pillowcase method of pasteurization but might use this tek instead....
Sort of dumb question, but the way I understand it you would only have one layer of substrate (poo/verm) and the layer of spawn on top; then naturally flip the 'cake' over when it has finished colonizing.
So 1)would this mean you would want a clear container so that you can tell when its done colonizing?
2)I've read that multiple layers of each (spawn/sub) is better, is that right?
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Perun
Mahapralaya...



Registered: 11/11/10
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I have much better experience with mixing the spawn and bulk(poo,coir,verm) then layering... 
sorry,but this fliping thing...i dont understand what do u mean!
-------------------- First: Then:
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Fear.Loathing
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Re: Layering Horse-poo [Re: Perun]
#14316699 - 04/19/11 11:13 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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wait how do you mix it then layer??? wouldn't it just be one layer then? and I was just thinking that like in this instance, flipping the cake out of its container to fruit in the FC.. or is that a bad idea? This was just my thinking cuz i thought having the spawn ONTOP of the bulk sub was a weird notion, so flipping it over my might make more sense, or just putting the spawn on bottom and the sub on top, OR, as you say, possibly mixing. but like i said i read a couple places people had more luck layering spawn/sub/spawn/sub etc
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Perun
Mahapralaya...



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Sorry i didnt write that good! (i am dead tired)
Anyway...i dump my bulk in the tub(save some(it will be clear why)),spawn on top of it,mix it all very good and then put those saved left overs of bulk on top as a "casing" layer,so it protect exsposed grain!
-------------------- First: Then:
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abica
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Re: Layering Horse-poo [Re: Perun]
#14316792 - 04/19/11 11:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I just read about people using a (clean) hand mixer to mix spawn into a bulk substrate. The idea is that you make as many points of contact between mycelium and substrate as possible.
All this flipping etc. sounds like a bad idea.
And I think the consensus here is that mixing is better than layering.
Next interesting point of debate- is it better to add that layer of substrate on top to cover the grains, or is it better to mix everything up evenly and let grains poke through? I've read both (preparing a grain run myself after having spawned BRF cakes to bulk poo a few times)
PS looks like a good pasteurization tek. I did one similar to that a long time ago...this must have been my inspiration. One issue was that my poo wasn't as aged as it could have been, and as such, a pillowcase type tek would have been better, because it would have leached the poo a bit. If yours is nice and ready to go, this ought to be perfect!
The tek is nice because it allows you to adjust your water content before loading a pan or tub with spawn.
The downside, as I remember reading and thinking, is that you may run the risk of only a partial pasteurization using this method. It relies on transfer of heat into the bag, into the middle of the substrate. Immersing the substrate, like in a pillowcase tek, doesn't expose you to that potential problem, because the hot water gets in there "real good like."
-------------------- My first poo tub
Edited by abica (04/19/11 11:37 AM)
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Fear.Loathing
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Re: Layering Horse-poo [Re: Perun]
#14316812 - 04/19/11 11:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ok so keep in container... I feel like having that layer of just dung (no verm/straw/spawn) on top would help protect from contams tho.. almost like a casing layer?
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Fear.Loathing
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oh woops thats pretty much what perun just said... i misread it. in any case i concur
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abica
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Correct on the idea behind the top layer.
Now, I'm not sure of it (I'm no expert) because:
On one hand, the top layer protects the exposed grains.
On the other hand, if there were grains in that top layer, it would most likely colonize more quickly, which would...protect everything from contamination.
Oh, I added a bit of talk about the poo pasteurization tek in my post above. Just thoughts from an amateur.
I believe it is true that you're better off having a poo top layer than anything with straw...I remember reading that straw contams easier than poo.
-------------------- My first poo tub
Edited by abica (04/19/11 11:40 AM)
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TranscendingLife
I Don't Need a Life to Live



Registered: 06/09/10
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properly pasteurized substrate is very contam resistant as is colonized grain spawn.
I've done it both ways. I prefer to mix it all fully together & ditch the pseudo-casing layer.
I use Damion5050's Elementary coir tek. Just dump the bucket in my mono, dump the spawn & mix w/ gloved hands. Smooth it out, put the lid on & let sit for 14 days.
-------------------- AMU: We Quickly Answer Questions Here "One must accept the probability of failure to experience the elation of success." - TranscendingLife “A man of genius makes no mistakes; his errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
      How I Do EVERYTHING      "Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart…. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."- Carl Jung "Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means."- William S. Burroughs "You are as dead now as you will ever be" - Seth
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Perun
Mahapralaya...



Registered: 11/11/10
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Casing layer is a non nutriant and its applayed to create perfect micro-climate! Layer of poo u applay on top will get colonizade,but it will protect exposed grain long enough for myc to get stronger after spawning! I would suggest ading something else to your bulk be side poo...coir or at least verm(much better texture) Straight poo sub is not the best option...mix of 3 or 4 ingredients is much better(complex sub)
P.S. sorry for the spelling and grammar...i am dead tired and English is not my native language!
-------------------- First: Then:
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TranscendingLife
I Don't Need a Life to Live



Registered: 06/09/10
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Quote:
todlow said: properly pasteurized substrate is very contam resistant as is colonized grain spawn.
I've done it both ways. I prefer to mix it all fully together & ditch the pseudo-casing layer.
I use Damion5050's Elementary coir tek. Just dump the bucket in my mono, dump the spawn & mix w/ gloved hands. Smooth it out, put the lid on & let sit for 14 days.
That's why I said pseudo, as in fake. It's what I refer to the extra 1/4" of a substrate you'd put on your bulk mix before sealing the lid for colonization.
it's probably just a language barrier.
But yea, I know what a real casing layer is. lol, good lookin' out though
-------------------- AMU: We Quickly Answer Questions Here "One must accept the probability of failure to experience the elation of success." - TranscendingLife “A man of genius makes no mistakes; his errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
      How I Do EVERYTHING      "Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart…. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."- Carl Jung "Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means."- William S. Burroughs "You are as dead now as you will ever be" - Seth
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Perun
Mahapralaya...



Registered: 11/11/10
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Quote:
todlow said:
Quote:
todlow said: properly pasteurized substrate is very contam resistant as is colonized grain spawn.
I've done it both ways. I prefer to mix it all fully together & ditch the pseudo-casing layer.
I use Damion5050's Elementary coir tek. Just dump the bucket in my mono, dump the spawn & mix w/ gloved hands. Smooth it out, put the lid on & let sit for 14 days.
That's why I said pseudo, as in fake. It's what I refer to the extra 1/4" of a substrate you'd put on your bulk mix before sealing the lid for colonization.
it's probably just a language barrier.
But yea, I know what a real casing layer is. lol, good lookin' out though
No bro...i wasnt talking to you! It was for Fear.Loathing !
-------------------- First: Then:
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TranscendingLife
I Don't Need a Life to Live



Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 21,627
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Re: Layering Horse-poo [Re: Perun]
#14316927 - 04/19/11 11:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Perun said:
Quote:
todlow said:
Quote:
todlow said: properly pasteurized substrate is very contam resistant as is colonized grain spawn.
I've done it both ways. I prefer to mix it all fully together & ditch the pseudo-casing layer.
I use Damion5050's Elementary coir tek. Just dump the bucket in my mono, dump the spawn & mix w/ gloved hands. Smooth it out, put the lid on & let sit for 14 days.
That's why I said pseudo, as in fake. It's what I refer to the extra 1/4" of a substrate you'd put on your bulk mix before sealing the lid for colonization.
it's probably just a language barrier.
But yea, I know what a real casing layer is. lol, good lookin' out though
No bro...i wasnt talking to you! It was for Fear.Loathing !

Yea, what Perun said about not using 100% is correct. I'd recommend the majority being poo, some coir & you're def. going to need some Verm in there for moisture retention.
-------------------- AMU: We Quickly Answer Questions Here "One must accept the probability of failure to experience the elation of success." - TranscendingLife “A man of genius makes no mistakes; his errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
      How I Do EVERYTHING      "Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart…. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."- Carl Jung "Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means."- William S. Burroughs "You are as dead now as you will ever be" - Seth
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Fear.Loathing
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Re: Layering Horse-poo [Re: Perun]
#14316939 - 04/19/11 11:54 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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lol its ok about the spelling perun, I've seen americans do much worse.
I may go with the pillowcase method as it seems a little easier and i like what you said about there being less risk as far as the pasteurization thing.
Also I'll probably try the layer of dung on top..I've heard that straw is more susceptable to contams as well... I live next to a farm so it depends on how much straw is mixed in with the poo when I collect it tho...Otherwise, prolly use poo/straw/verm as bulk sub mix... anyone have any ideas on good ratios?
@Todlow
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Fear.Loathing
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and thanks i do also know what a REAL casing layer is lol, and know its pretty much unnecessary when using a poo mix. having that layer on top just seems sensible as far as contams/colonization goes.....
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TranscendingLife
I Don't Need a Life to Live



Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 21,627
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The pillowcase method is hard to get the substrate to field capacity...I'd recommend using quart jars like RR does in his video for ports.
Where did you hear that straw is more susceptible to contams? I'm just wondering, because if you've watched the RR videos, He uses strait straw laundry baskets outside for fruiting. Doesn't really seem to be a problem. Again, it comes down to PROPER pasteurization not, half-assed pasteurization...
As far as the ratios go, I I only use Damion5050's coir tek. It works great for me
-------------------- AMU: We Quickly Answer Questions Here "One must accept the probability of failure to experience the elation of success." - TranscendingLife “A man of genius makes no mistakes; his errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
      How I Do EVERYTHING      "Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart…. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."- Carl Jung "Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means."- William S. Burroughs "You are as dead now as you will ever be" - Seth
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Fear.Loathing
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I've been rummaging through this site so much recently i cant remember exactly, prolly in some long ago thread... Could you post a link to Damion 5050's coir tek on here for me??
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TranscendingLife
I Don't Need a Life to Live



Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 21,627
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Click on the AMU Q&A Thread in my signature. We have a list of all our members's teks as the first post
-------------------- AMU: We Quickly Answer Questions Here "One must accept the probability of failure to experience the elation of success." - TranscendingLife “A man of genius makes no mistakes; his errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
      How I Do EVERYTHING      "Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart…. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."- Carl Jung "Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means."- William S. Burroughs "You are as dead now as you will ever be" - Seth
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abica
Intrepid Warlock's Apprentice




Registered: 04/01/08
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I'd heard that straw seems to be more susceptible to green molds than hpoo, but I've been searching a bit and haven't come up with anything concrete- just rumors etc.
That's one of the reasons I stuck with hpoo. Despite lots of people having success with coir, straw, etc., hpoo seems like the natural choice (no pun intended).
I can totally see the argument for making a complex substrate, however. More nutrient variety, water capacity, etc.
Todlow, I'm sure you're right, good procedures yield good results and can make any established tek work just fine. That's yet another reason why I like just plain poo in monotubs- I could probably get better results with more complex methods, but the way I've adopted is just so easy it makes me lazy and change-adverse. (The results in my sig were just my very first grow, things improved after that)
Ack- how did I end up rambling about this stuff in Loathing's thread? Sorry dude.
I'm gonna check out that AMU thread as well!
-------------------- My first poo tub
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Fear.Loathing
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Re: Layering Horse-poo [Re: abica]
#14317232 - 04/19/11 12:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I like the coir tek... any idea whether horse poo can be added (or substituted) for better results?
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Perun
Mahapralaya...



Registered: 11/11/10
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Ratios...well latly i use only coir cuz i moved and there is no h poo around here,but when i use poo,i use 60%poo,20coir,10 verm,10 used coffee grounds(never had a contam...i really pasteurize it...GOOD )and of course 5% of overall volume is gypsum! But thats just me...and works gr8!
-------------------- First: Then:
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Fear.Loathing
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Re: Layering Horse-poo [Re: Perun]
#14318902 - 04/19/11 06:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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How essential is the gypsum and coffee grinds?? just wondering
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Perun
Mahapralaya...



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coffee is not that important...it helps lil bit,but not as much as many here are claming! Coffee will increase yields and speed but just... and coffee does lead to higher contamination rates, and is hard to get right if you are inexperienced!
Gypsum...i think that is the best additve for every grower...it will increase yield, speed, health, helps fight contams and also is a PH stabilizer...and its very inexpensive,so...its perfect!
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Fear.Loathing
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Re: Layering Horse-poo [Re: Perun]
#14320021 - 04/19/11 09:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alright I gotcha  So any specific type/kind of gypsum I need? Pellets, etc?
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abica
Intrepid Warlock's Apprentice




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Gypsum- some folks go to a brewing supply store for it. Others smash up a piece of drywall, but you need to make sure it's plain-jane drywall with no antifungal agents.
-------------------- My first poo tub
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



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Quote:
Fear.Loathing said: Ok so keep in container... I feel like having that layer of just dung (no verm/straw/spawn) on top would help protect from contams tho.. almost like a casing layer?
This is correct. I prefer layering, or actually a combination of layering and mixing.
Alternate several layers of substrate and spawn. I've found this works faster and better than thorough mixing, but either way works. The important thing is to have no exposed grains, which are much more prone to contamination if exposed on top.
I agree with those above about flipping the substrate. Bad idea, as is the pillow case. It makes a horrible mess. Small amounts of manure or coir, etc., can be pasteurized without making a mess in jars, as shown in the horse manure tek video. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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abica
Intrepid Warlock's Apprentice




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Huh. This "top layer of substrate" business sounds pretty handy, eh Loathing?
RogerRabbit, could you comment on the effect of pasteurizing horse manure in a pillowcase method compared to bringing the manure up to field capacity, then pasteurizing it? I'm curious about the water-soluble nutrients one would lose in the former (essentially poo tea) and retain in the latter. It's much cleaner and easier to do bring it up to capacity, then pasteurize, but I worry about not quite getting the job done that way.
Cool shirt in the video preview, BTW!
-------------------- My first poo tub
Edited by abica (04/20/11 02:23 PM)
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Fear.Loathing
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Re: Layering Horse-poo [Re: abica]
#14326728 - 04/21/11 08:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
abica said: Huh. This "top layer of substrate" business sounds pretty handy, eh Loathing?
I agree Definitely going to give it a go on my coming grow. Also I was really convinced I was going to use the pillowcase method but I highly value RR's advice and will give the jar trick a try just throwem into a pressure cooker? Doesn't specify in the preview...
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Perun
Mahapralaya...



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U dont want to sterilize your manure,but pasteurize,so u break your manure,add verm,gypsum,bring it to field capacity,load jars and put them in your PC(with no lid) or some kind of a large kettle,fill with water until jars are 2/3 submerged,put on the stove and bring the temp in side your jars to 160F(use meat thermometer) and keep at that temp for 1 hr! That is it...
-------------------- First: Then:
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RogerRabbit
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Quote:
Fear.Loathing said: just throwem into a pressure cooker? Doesn't specify in the preview...
Well, there is a full release on DVD you know. . . .
The Mrs and I put our life savings into making that 2 DVD video set, so it won't break any of you to actually buy it and get the whole enchilada. 
Most of you waste at least $49 at the bar every Saturday night. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Trippy_Smurf
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I don't think brew supply stores carry gypsum. Try hardware stores, garden stores, etc.
-------------------- SECURITY: READ THIS! Chef: Kids, what did I tell you about drugs? Kids: There's a time and a place for everything, and it's called college. How to be a good shroomie How to grow mushrooms A collection of good links (may be outdated) How things should look How to pass a drug test
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skyjohnny
Natural Mystic



Registered: 04/21/10
Posts: 200
Loc: Secret Underground Labora...
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Well, there is a full release on DVD you know. . . .
The Mrs and I put our life savings into making that 2 DVD video set, so it won't break any of you to actually buy it and get the whole enchilada. 
Most of you waste at least $49 at the bar every Saturday night. RR
I know where my next 50 bucks is going! Also, I experimented with hpoo in my rye berries (sterilized in jars) and had pretty cool results, they colonized faster than thier kin without poo and one ended up growing an OI that was (as my roommate put it) as big as your forearm...
-------------------- "Man is that he might have joy. Joy is the "true meaning" of life. May you all experience "true joy". -CJM
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Fear.Loathing
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Fear.Loathing said: just throwem into a pressure cooker? Doesn't specify in the preview...
Well, there is a full release on DVD you know. . . .
The Mrs and I put our life savings into making that 2 DVD video set, so it won't break any of you to actually buy it and get the whole enchilada. 
Most of you waste at least $49 at the bar every Saturday night. RR
I understand that...dont mean to sound like i'm trying to get all your knowledge from you for free so i don't have to buy your stuff...tbh I'm a poor college student whose choosing to get into this hobby rather than spending all my extra money (not much haha) on drugs themselves. I find this more fulfilling than just buying shrooms from some guy for 40 a slice...Definitely will invest in your dvds when I've got the cash to do it, I know it would be well worth the investment with the experience you obviously have on the subject 
the helps much appreciated RR
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abica
Intrepid Warlock's Apprentice




Registered: 04/01/08
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Trippy_Smurf- look for "Brewer's Gypsum." Not that its necessary, but some folks like it.
-------------------- My first poo tub
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