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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles
    #14307814 - 04/17/11 05:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Warning: this thread may be offensive to some even though this is one time I am not trying to be.

The point of this thread is simple: confirmation bias.

Years ago, I was best internet friends with Mr.Mushrooms. When I questioned his 'miraculous' healing of cancer through prayer, that ended our friendship even though mny questions were very gentle. He explained his answered prayer was proof of a personal God.

I explained that the ONLY people who spoke of miracle cancer healings were the survivors and their friends and families. The victims NEVER spoke of such prayers being answered.

Now we have one more cancer victim who is unable to tell us of his miracle healing. :sad:


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OfflineSimms
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14310581 - 04/18/11 06:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The Devil must have gotten to him.


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Edited by Simms (04/18/11 06:31 AM)

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: Simms]
    #14310869 - 04/18/11 08:23 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So the fact that confirmation bias obviously does exist therefore negates the veracity of all reports of healing through prayer etc?


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OfflineHeffy
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14310931 - 04/18/11 08:41 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Why were you willing to sacrifice your friendship over your belief that healing is unrelated to prayer?

Would it not be better to remain friends and accept that he believes something you find absurd?


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I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: Heffy]
    #14311190 - 04/18/11 10:02 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I was not aware that asking pointed questions as to the nature of the miracle on a debate board would end the friendship.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut] * 1
    #14311215 - 04/18/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
So the fact that confirmation bias obviously does exist therefore negates the veracity of all reports of healing through prayer etc?




Yay, another long-term member unable to grasp the concept of proving a negative. :congrats:

And thus we stay stuck on square one.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14312348 - 04/18/11 02:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Why dont you just answer the question and stop playing silly games?


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Always Smi2le

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14312410 - 04/18/11 02:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
So the fact that confirmation bias obviously does exist therefore negates the veracity of all reports of healing through prayer etc?



It's more like all reports of healing are explained by confirmation bias. Obviously there are many, many people who prayed for healing but didn't receive it- does God not care about them?


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: NetDiver]
    #14312477 - 04/18/11 02:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Sounded to me like OC was using confirmation bias as an explanation and then ducking GazzBut's question. Of course the original post was so sketchy it could be taken a lot of ways, but I'd say he was ducking the question.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: NetDiver]
    #14312591 - 04/18/11 02:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


It's more like all reports of healing are explained by confirmation bias




I see no facts here. Just unproven belief.


Why do most people normally have to come down on one side of the argument? why cant people just be open to both possiblities? I can say with a high degree of certainty that nobody on this forum knows whether prayer has the power to heal SOME people or not. But most people on here choose their favourite guess and then defend it to the hilt like a bunch of school kids in the playground and then pretend this passes for philisophical debate!!!!


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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14312923 - 04/18/11 03:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The Placebo effect is stronger in some than others.  Mind over matter, for some.

Faith healing = placebo, which can be very very strong.

I think it is absurd people bash faith healing when the placebo effect is such a proven phenomenon.  They are almost identical phenomenon (if you think it works, it will), albeit from drastically different angles.  You are bashing something that is outside of your belief system.  But when you rehash the same idea in your own belief system, it becomes perfectly normal fine right?



So, OC, do you have some argument against the placebo effect?

The mind couldn't possible have an effect on the body!


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"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

Edited by Cannashroom (04/18/11 03:35 PM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14313159 - 04/18/11 04:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You simply misunderstand the limits of the placebo effect. There are absolutely no controlled studies that showed that one can cure oneself of cancer simply by the power of the mind. Please get your facts straight 'cause you sound silly.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14314131 - 04/18/11 09:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
So the fact that confirmation bias obviously does exist therefore negates the veracity of all reports of healing through prayer etc?





No, how would you get this from the post?  The point was that the self reporting of cancer cures is neccesarily skewed to those who have affected a cure or some sort of 'healing" as the dead people, very sick people, are not reporting such opinions.  This selection bias skewes the sample very dramatically from the population you wish to study.

Compounding the initial problem, those in the allready skewed-population are self-reporting cure, healing, which they have no way of knowing short of a very long period of no detected cancer.  Truely: when cancer is not detectable that is all it means: it does not mean you are cured.  These individuals who feel they've been healed are confirming what they have an emotional need to confirm and often would face dissonance between their otherwise wasted time, money, commitment, strained relationships, if they did not confirm, and hence their self-reports are not particularly worthwhile.

Quote:

Heffy said:
Why were you willing to sacrifice your friendship over your belief that healing is unrelated to prayer?

Would it not be better to remain friends and accept that he believes something you find absurd?




Why would you ask this question? I mean, its irrelevant what his motivation was, but I just cannot believe you would broach such a sensitive subject and threaten our friendship.  I just cannot continue to be friends with someone who would ask Orgone that question.  I'm sorry.

Why you felt asking that question was worth sacrificing our friendship I'll never know, but i guess it was more important to you.

Quote:

So, OC, do you have some argument against the placebo effect?

The mind couldn't possible have an effect on the body!




Why is it absurd to criticize faith healing?  What evidence do you have that faith healing cures cancer?  You seem to just suggest that the placebo effect justifies belief in such, but you present no evidence at all, even going so far as to presume that others who've stated their opposition would agree with your stance.

Moreover: what does the placebo effect have to do with whether faith healing is efficacious?

You don't even make an argument, just conclusions.  What do you base these upon?

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InvisibleKid_Orgo
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14314210 - 04/18/11 10:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
why cant people just be open to both possiblities? I can say with a high degree of certainty that nobody on this forum knows whether prayer has the power to heal SOME people or not.




Tom believes in unicorns.
I don't believe in unicorns.
We should both admit that there may well be some unicorns.

Obviously you can't prove a negative. Unicorns MAY exist, but to imply that the two possibilities should be treated equally because one isn't impossible doesn't make sense to me.

People's sledgehammer approaches to the question clearly reflect their belief in the relative likelihoods of the two options.

EDIT: It also reflects the purpose of this forum, and of debate in general. We're expected to present reasoned defenses of our ideas and change minds by virtue of those defenses. It doesn't work without passion.


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He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.

Edited by Kid_Orgo (04/18/11 10:28 PM)

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: johnm214]
    #14315321 - 04/19/11 01:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


No, how would you get this from the post?  The point was that the self reporting of cancer cures is neccesarily skewed to those who have affected a cure or some sort of 'healing" as the dead people, very sick people, are not reporting such opinions.  This selection bias skewes the sample very dramatically from the population you wish to study.




This is so obvious that I cant see why OC thinks its thread worthy? I was trying to get at his actual opinion on the matter.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14315341 - 04/19/11 01:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bviously you can't prove a negative. Unicorns MAY exist, but to imply that the two possibilities should be treated equally because one isn't impossible doesn't make sense to me.




If you use simple yes / no logic then I can see your problem. If instead you frame it in a slightly fuzzier fashion:

Tom believes in unicorns with a 98% level of certainty
I don't believe in unicorns with a 99% level of certainty
We should both admit that there remains some possibility that either of us could be correct.


However, there are definiteley alot more cases of cancer remission which get attributed to some kind of faith or prayer than there are reliable sightings of unicorns, which is a real shame because they are extremely beautiful and quite friendly too.


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Always Smi2le

Edited by GazzBut (04/19/11 01:26 AM)

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #14315353 - 04/19/11 01:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You simply misunderstand the limits of the placebo effect. There are absolutely no controlled studies that showed that one can cure oneself of cancer simply by the power of the mind. Please get your facts straight 'cause you sound silly.




So you can explain to us the definitive limits of the placebo effect? I think not, so perhaps your the one who sounds a little silly? How ironic.


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Always Smi2le

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14315860 - 04/19/11 07:01 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
I see no facts here. Just unproven belief.



I see no response here to the part of my post that included indisputable facts:

Many people pray for healing and subsequently die; only the ones who survive claim that God saved them. What about the ones who died?

Quote:

Why do most people normally have to come down on one side of the argument? why cant people just be open to both possiblities? I can say with a high degree of certainty that nobody on this forum knows whether prayer has the power to heal SOME people or not. But most people on here choose their favourite guess and then defend it to the hilt like a bunch of school kids in the playground and then pretend this passes for philisophical debate!!!!



Because God choosing to heal some people and ignoring others is no different than prayer being totally ineffective.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: NetDiver]
    #14316027 - 04/19/11 08:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

see no response here to the part of my post that included indisputable facts:

Many people pray for healing and subsequently die; only the ones who survive claim that God saved them. What about the ones who died?




Lets just cut to the chase: If you were to assign a percentage of probability to the likelihood that some people have been able to cure cancer through the power of their own faith what would it be?

Quote:

Because God choosing to heal some people and ignoring others is no different than prayer being totally ineffective.




Statistical Significance


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Always Smi2le

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14316404 - 04/19/11 10:08 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Lets just cut to the chase: If you were to assign a percentage of probability to the likelihood that some people have been able to cure cancer through the power of their own faith what would it be?




I would say it approaches zero. Large-scale studies on prayer and survival rates tend to confirm this; i.e. no difference between prayer and non-prayer groups and/or religious vs. atheist groups.

In a similar bit of nonsense, what was popular with the spiritual-but-not-religious crowd, was visualization techniques. "Imagine your white blood cells are hungry sharks eating the evil cancer cells." Once again, no discernible effect, but the survivors will obviously swear by the technique.

As to placebo, it does work on perceived pain levels in some cases through the lowering of stress and the release of endorphins, but has no effect on serious or chronic disease.


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