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Offlinejimbotron
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In which I play Devil's Advocate
    #14314360 - 04/18/11 10:25 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I frequently accuse the Tea Party of racism, I'll admit. I'm not the first and I won't be the last. But am I being unfair?

To show that I'm not closed-minded, I'll let the Tea Party defend themselves.



I won't put any words in his mouth or anything. I think he said everything that needed to be said, and he's definitely convinced me.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: jimbotron]
    #14314544 - 04/18/11 10:54 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

well first off, who made him the spokesman for the tea party?

second, isnt it his right to be a racist or a bigot or a what the fuck ever he wants to be?

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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14314717 - 04/18/11 11:23 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

well first off, who made him the spokesman for the tea party?





Well he certifiably claimed to be speaking on behalf of the Tea Party, and considering they are a "grass roots" party his claim seems to be as legitimate as anyone else's.  Even if he isn't the formal spokesman of the Tea Party the point is that he is not alone in this sentiment and it has been my (and many others') experience that this sort of racism generally holds true for the movement.

Quote:

second, isn't it his right to be a racist or a bigot or a what the fuck ever he wants to be?




No one was arguing that it isn't their right to be racist, however as a party if they seek to govern an entire country that consists of a diverse population, their racism does call in to question their ability to effectively and justly govern.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14315098 - 04/19/11 12:33 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

lol... they arent that kind of party, they dont have a candidate, the have a pool of candidates

was there anything he said that was incorrect?

was any of it actually racist?

BTW, he's not tea party regardless of his claim, he's the conservative sportsman party

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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14315206 - 04/19/11 12:52 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

was there anything he said that was incorrect?





Yes, Muslims do not have a history of Infiltration, Procreation, and elimination.  Blacks do not cause more crime then all other races combined, though they are the most incarcerated as a percentage of population. I am not aware of any reparations paid to the blacks, at least not by the federal government.  Most black people are not on some form of welfare.  He believes that the vast majority of black people are not educated enough to vote.

Quote:

was any of it actually racist?




He calls black people "Negroes", does not want people of color to vote (4:10) He again believes that black people have not been educated enough to vote.  He thinks Muslims should not be appointed to government positions like homeland security.  The list goes on . . .

Quote:

lol... they arent that kind of party, they dont have a candidate, the have a pool of candidates




I fail to see how that affects my point at all.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

Edited by Smackshadow (04/19/11 02:59 AM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14315674 - 04/19/11 04:40 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> however as a party if they seek to govern an entire country that consists of a diverse population,

Actually, the tea party isn't a political party at all, but is a political movement.  It is much easier to wrap your mind around it if you think of them as "the tea party movement".  There are certainly some racist people that are part of the movement.  There are also racist people that are sitting in congress on both sides.  Since the democrats have elected racist representatives to congress, are all Democrats racist?  Obviously, the democrats seek to govern an entire country that consists of a diverse population.  Hmmmm....

> and considering they are a "grass roots" party

Nope, they are a grass roots movement within republican party.  Again, the "tea party" is not a political party.  I repeat myself, but it is much easier to wrap your mind around it if you think of them as "the tea party movement".


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14315726 - 04/19/11 05:23 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Quote:

was there anything he said that was incorrect?





Yes, Muslims do not have a history of Infiltration, Procreation, and elimination.  Blacks do not cause more crime then all other races combined, though they are the most incarcerated as a percentage of population.




are you sure, I'm unaware of blacks being abducted off the street and put
on trial if they werent arrested for a crime, did it occur to you that the
higher rate of incarceration could be due to the higher incidence of
repeat offenders... post a picture and prove me wrong, blacks stand on
street corners selling drugs, white people dont... could that lead to more
arrests of blacks... I've never seen a white street dealer

as for the muslims... yeah, they do it

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/08/buddhists-fear-muslims-in-southern-thailand.html
https://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2011/01/12/muslim-hate-squads-killing-buddhists-in-southern-thailand-warning-very-graphic-photo-images/
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-03-30/news/29361710_1_violence-or-expressions-term-intifada-expression-and-incitement
http://michellemalkin.com/2006/02/19/muslims-kill-christians-in-nigeria/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/egyptian-muslims-kill-at-least-20-christians-727149.html


Quote:

I am not aware of any reparations paid to the blacks, at least not by the federal government.




affirmative action, special grants for education, housing, minority grants for business

come on now... what's all this free money slated specifically for black people supposed to be referred to as

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/business-grants-african-american-women-2279.html

Quote:


  Most black people are not on some form of welfare.  He believes that the vast majority of black people are not educated enough to vote.




is that really that inaccurate after seeing that they are getting
'reparations' in many forms, consider the percentage of the population,
whites are 77% of the population and blacks constitute 12% of the
population yet 40% of welfare recipients are black and 38% is white

there are more whites in poverty level than blacks, yet they still
constitute the bulk of welfare



Quote:

Quote:

was any of it actually racist?




He calls black people "Negroes"





it's OK for blacks to do it but it's racist when whites say negro






and it's a source of pride when it came to sports



Quote:

, does not want people of color to vote (4:10) He again believes that black people have not been educated enough to vote.



'
the black community seems to agree that blacks are lacking education,
does that mean that blacks hate blacks?

http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/black-matrix/26709-ongoing-miseducation-black-students.html
http://nbufhouston.blogspot.com/2008/02/black-miseducation.html
http://africanamerica.org/displayForumTopic/content/128788938052281844



let' see what the black voter has to say




let's here what the black politician has to say... I wonder if he manged to vote for himself



and in the interest of fairness, there's a lot of whites that should hold
off on voting until they learn a little bit, seems they like to vote democrat



and then there's the smart folks, they come in all colors too


Quote:

  He thinks Muslims should not be appointed to government positions like homeland security.  The list goes on . . .




who should be in charge of homeland security? Kareem Shora is syrian born
maybe we should elect him to the oval office as well then he can put the
illegals in charge of order security


Quote:

Quote:

lol... they arent that kind of party, they dont have a candidate, the have a pool of candidates




I fail to see how that affects my point at all.





you fail to see a lot of things

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Offlinezgbzgb1
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14316202 - 04/19/11 09:11 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Haha tea-jad, I loled.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14316467 - 04/19/11 10:22 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Regarding reparations you neglected to mention Pigford, wherein any Negro who even claims he thought about farming is entitled to money that was supposed to go to actual Negro farmers who didn't get their share of farmer welfare checks several decades ago.
http://biggovernment.com/category/pigford/
Quite a series of articles.


--------------------

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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14317925 - 04/19/11 02:51 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Current prison and jail populations by race are about:
79% White
13% Black
8% other

If police target street dealers who tend to be black but not social network dealers that tend to be white, that would make white crime under reported not over reported.


Quote:

it's OK for blacks to do it but it's racist when whites say negro





Yes, it is racist for a group of people who have historically been oppressors to use a racial term to deride and humiliate an entire race, but not racist when the oppressed group chooses to use that term amongst themselves as a term of endearment.

Many laregly black communities have cronic education problems.  That fact does not negate the racist notion that all black people are too 'stupid' to vote.


Quote:

who should be in charge of homeland security? Kareem Shora is syrian born maybe we should elect him to the oval office as well then he can put the illegals in charge of order security





You really don't see how it is incredibly racist to think it is ok to exclude a person from a job because they share a physical or cultural trait, with an other group that, you don't like?





Quote:

Quote:

l
Quote:

ol... they arent that kind of party, they dont have a candidate, the have a pool of candidates






I fail to see how that affects my point at all.







you fail to see a lot of things





You don't have to defend your statements if you don't want to, but then they are considered forfeit.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14317965 - 04/19/11 03:00 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Oh and
Quote:

affirmative action, special grants for education, housing, minority grants for business




Aren't reparations, they are social programs designed to prevent current racism from damaging all minorities.  Not payment for past slavery and racism.

As for your news articles of terrorists.  They do not show a history of infiltration, procreation, and elimination.  They just show isolated sects terrorizing other populations.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14317995 - 04/19/11 03:05 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Current prison and jail populations by race are about:
79% White
13% Black
8% other

If police target street dealers who tend to be black but not social network dealers that tend to be white, that would make white crime under reported not over reported.


Quote:

it's OK for blacks to do it but it's racist when whites say negro





Yes, it is racist for a group of people who have historically been oppressors to use a racial term to deride and humiliate an entire race, but not racist when the oppressed group chooses to use that term amongst themselves as a term of endearment.

Many laregly black communities have cronic education problems.  That fact does not negate the racist notion that all black people are too 'stupid' to vote.


Quote:

who should be in charge of homeland security? Kareem Shora is syrian born maybe we should elect him to the oval office as well then he can put the illegals in charge of order security





You really don't see how it is incredibly racist to think it is ok to exclude a person from a job because they share a physical or cultural trait, with an other group that, you don't like?





Quote:

Quote:

l
Quote:

ol... they arent that kind of party, they dont have a candidate, the have a pool of candidates






I fail to see how that affects my point at all.







you fail to see a lot of things





You don't have to defend your statements if you don't want to, but then they are considered forfeit.



1.  Why am I listed as the person you are responding to when those aren't my quotes?
2.  I dispute your incarceration figures
3.  The word "Negro" is not pejorative


--------------------

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14318012 - 04/19/11 03:09 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Oh and
Quote:

affirmative action, special grants for education, housing, minority grants for business




Aren't reparations, they are social programs designed to prevent current racism from damaging all minorities.  Not payment for past slavery and racism.




So when white people become a minority they will qualify?  No, those programs, like Pigford, are most definitely reparations.
Quote:



As for your news articles of terrorists.  They do not show a history of infiltration, procreation, and elimination.  They just show isolated sects terrorizing other populations.




Those aren't isolated sects.


--------------------

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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14318079 - 04/19/11 03:23 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Lol, I am not doing well this morning.

1. I responded to the wrong person, sorry zappa.
2. I think I accidentally wrote the percentages from the wrong column.
3. According to most black people, Wikipedia, many writers, Negro is in fact both a pejorative word and racist.

Here is a link to arrest rates in the country as I am having problems loading the prison population links.

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_43.html


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14318107 - 04/19/11 03:28 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Regarding #3 what does wikipedia have to say about this?
http://www.uncf.org/

UNCF doesn't stand for United African-American College Fund and I will continue to use it.  Not all Africans are Negroes.


--------------------

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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14318121 - 04/19/11 03:30 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Pigford, isn't reparations.  It is a settlement offered by the US government for loan discrimination during the 80's and 90's.  The administration was subject to numerous fraudulent claims.  However, just because an administration made it easy to commit fraud against it does not mean they are in any way reparations.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14318147 - 04/19/11 03:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Pigford, isn't reparations.  It is a settlement offered by the US government for loan discrimination during the 80's and 90's.  The administration was subject to numerous fraudulent claims.  However, just because an administration made it easy to commit fraud against it does not mean they are in any way reparations.



I disagree.  I think that's exactly why they are allowing the fraud to continue and even encouraging it, much to the chagrin and disgust of the real victims.  If that isn't reparations, what is?


--------------------

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14318357 - 04/19/11 04:19 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:



Quote:

it's OK for blacks to do it but it's racist when whites say negro





Yes, it is racist for a group of people who have historically been oppressors to use a racial term to deride and humiliate an entire race, but not racist when the oppressed group chooses to use that term amongst themselves as a term of endearment.




You say it, but why is this so?  First off, you don't explain how his use of the term is in such a manner as it tends to deride and humiliate.  Second off: you fail to stipulate the group in question now explain how you know the individual was a member of the historically-oppressing group.  Its hard for me to imagine how you could know this other than through racial prejudice- not the sturdiest of foundations.

Saying a word is never categorically racist.  There seems to be quite the conflation between offensive, prejudice, and racist as terms, and it seems you are guilty of furthering the confusion.  That someone might be offensive, that a term might be generally offensive, does not make its user a racist. 



Quote:

Quote:

who should be in charge of homeland security? Kareem Shora is syrian born maybe we should elect him to the oval office as well then he can put the illegals in charge of order security





You really don't see how it is incredibly racist to think it is ok to exclude a person from a job because they share a physical or cultural trait, with an other group that, you don't like?




Interesting, you were just making this point in reverse: that its acceptable to consider someone a racist and consider their language inappropriate meerly because they share a physical or cultural trait with a oppressing class (which probably includes everybody- unworkable).  Seems quite the turnabout to now be objecting to this practice.





Quote:

Quote:

lol... they arent that kind of party, they dont have a candidate, the have a pool of candidates






I fail to see how that affects my point at all.





It renders your point silly as if the group is a movement rather than a party then they do not necesarily have an internal structure, legal control over their identity, nor central apparatusses that could exert such control even if they had it.  This means that they don't have "spokespersons" to give official positions and also means that anyone can claim to be speaking for the teaparty without difficulty or fear of lawsuit.  This would never happen otherwise: the Republican party would enjoin someone who claimed to be speaking for them, the teaparty movement does not have this power.

Plainly: that one guy says something doesn't mean the group to which he claims membership endorses such.


Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Oh and
Quote:

affirmative action, special grants for education, housing, minority grants for business




Aren't reparations, they are social programs designed to prevent current racism from damaging all minorities.  Not payment for past slavery and racism.

As for your news articles of terrorists.  They do not show a history of infiltration, procreation, and elimination.  They just show isolated sects terrorizing other populations.





They may not be reperations, but if the calculus used to determine reperations are due in the first place is to look at historical repression by the government, then surely it makes sense to include historical benefits that mitigate the losses.  This is a normal part of civil law and is even an affirmative defense to the claimed damages in the first place.  Any consideration of historical wrongs that doesn't include historical benefits would seem arbitrarily exclussive, and surely unfair.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14319295 - 04/19/11 07:18 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:

Current prison and jail populations by race are about:
79% White
13% Black
8% other

If police target street dealers who tend to be black but not social network dealers that tend to be white, that would make white crime under reported not over reported.




your statistics show a pretty even slice of the demographic of america. I
guess those racist laws and prosecution are all smoke and mirrors afterall
much like the black on black violence claims being so much higher than
with whites, it's a couple of points higher, certainly not significant

social network dealers would be mostly be conducting business behind
closed doors making it more difficult to target them than the street dealer


Quote:

Quote:

it's OK for blacks to do it but it's racist when whites say negro





Yes, it is racist for a group of people who have historically been oppressors to use a racial term to deride and humiliate an entire race, but not racist when the oppressed group chooses to use that term amongst themselves as a term of endearment.




that statement endorses racism, not to mention the whites working within
the organization of united negro college fund  would be racist by your
definition... we cant have it both ways, it's either a racist term or it's not

Quote:

Many laregly black communities have cronic education problems.  That fact does not negate the racist notion that all black people are too 'stupid' to vote.




why do you insist it's all?



Quote:

Quote:

who should be in charge of homeland security? Kareem Shora is syrian born maybe we should elect him to the oval office as well then he can put the illegals in charge of order security





You really don't see how it is incredibly racist to think it is ok to exclude a person from a job because they share a physical or cultural trait, with an other group that, you don't like?




national security matters, shouldnt that be left to US born citizens, not
folks born outside of the borders? nationality isnt race, there's plenty
of muslims born within the US just as there's many other religious groups
within the US, do I see the religion as an issue? no, it's the nationality
I see as the problem in homeland security

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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: In which I play Devil's Advocate [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14322804 - 04/20/11 12:25 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2011/04/19/theres-that-damned-number-again/

Quote:

In an exclusive Eyewitness News poll, SurveyUSA asked Southern Californians familiar with the [Barack Obama as a chimpanzee] email whether they found it offensive. Seventy percent said yes, 27 percent said no.




I guaran-fucking-tee you 27 percent of Americans would agree with this guy. Same percentage who want to ban abortion, take evolution out of the science books, go back to segregation, bomb China, you name it. Same percent of Americans who self-identify as Tea Partiers. I guarantee you, if you did a Venn Diagram, all of these stupid ideas would line up in the same place.

The Crazification Factor was pegged at 27% FIVE YEARS AGO and it has not deviated since. You ask who this man speaks for, I'll tell you.

He speaks for 27% of America.

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