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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: What does Agnostic mean to you? [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #14307646 - 04/17/11 05:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Yay, another clueless member. Perhaps you can explain what constitutes proof of non-existence.




Proof?  Cant do it for existence or non-existence.  But evidence for non-existence is just as easy to gather as evidence for existence.  For example I have evidence that there is not a beer on my desk right now.  My evidence is the visual survey I have just done.  I dont see a beer, thus that is compelling evidence (but not proof) that there is a non-existence of beer on my desk.  Easy.  I dont believe in santa clause for the same reason, I have copious amounts of evidence against santa's existence.

The difference between existence and non-existence is not inherent, its relative to the way the question is posed.  (evidence against the existence of santa is the same as evidence for the existence of no santa)

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Offlinepouihi
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Re: What does Agnostic mean to you? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14307708 - 04/17/11 05:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

but that's a physical thing.
one could say you have a spiritual bucket of beer right in front of you :laugh2:
according to a believer you should now show us how that isn't there!


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"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: What does Agnostic mean to you? [Re: pouihi]
    #14307738 - 04/17/11 05:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pouihi said:
but that's a physical thing.
one could say you have a spiritual bucket of beer right in front of you :laugh2:
according to a believer you should now show us how that isn't there!





I believe that is a non-sequitur because beer is, by definition, not spiritual.  Beer, by definition, is a fermented beverage.  A physical object.  Claiming there is spiritual beer is like claiming you have a square circle - the evidence against such an object is self evident in the mutually exclusive characteristics.  (Same goes for a Flying Spaghetti Monster.  We know what spaghetti is, it is defined as a noodle made from a grain.  It has been studied and shown not to be able to fly.  Thus we have sufficient evidence to reject the idea that a Flying Spaghetti Monster exists.)

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Offlinepouihi
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Re: What does Agnostic mean to you? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14307760 - 04/17/11 05:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

so are humans... yet they say JC is everywhere


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"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: What does Agnostic mean to you? [Re: pouihi]
    #14307772 - 04/17/11 05:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Im not sure what Jesus Christ has to do with an argument about Agnosticism.  Agnosticism pertains to religion and god in general, not just one sect.

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Offlinepouihi
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Re: What does Agnostic mean to you? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14310361 - 04/18/11 03:13 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not sure what beer has to do with agnosticism either, yet your posing it has an example. Most religions claim having had a messiah on earth, so wouldn't that be physicall either? aren't we physicall and they claim spirits are wandering around??


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"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: What does Agnostic mean to you? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14311121 - 04/18/11 09:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Yay, another clueless member. Perhaps you can explain what constitutes proof of non-existence.




actually, you can prove non-existance easier than existance. Just show something is a contradiction.

Positive proof involves showing that two things are identical. You can never really prove that anything trully exists (except that something exists).

You are an ignorant person who knows enough to get by without whatever it is that you are ignorant of


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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: What does Agnostic mean to you? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14311202 - 04/18/11 10:05 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Yay, another clueless member. Perhaps you can explain what constitutes proof of non-existence.




actually, you can prove non-existance easier than existance. Just show something is a contradiction.

Positive proof involves showing that two things are identical. You can never really prove that anything trully exists (except that something exists).

You are an ignorant person who knows enough to get by without whatever it is that you are ignorant of




atheists would need to have proof of non-existence, not agnostics. people that are agnostic believe there's no way of knowing for sure what happens after we die or if there's a god, so i'm not sure why they would need to prove anything.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: What does Agnostic mean to you? [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14311217 - 04/18/11 10:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well Im an agnostic and I don't disagree.

Ive just been listening to OC share his modern perspective for years


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Offlinepcube
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Re: What does Agnostic mean to you? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14336545 - 04/23/11 12:55 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

tl;dr

Don't know, don't care.


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Everything seems like a dream...

Abuse said:
whoever this swim guy is, he's getting to all the drugs before everyone else, not just on this forum on many others too. swim's a little bit selfish :grin:

The RR's Notes Thread

I've got an R44 print the size of a doorknob that I'd love to trade for a pan cyans print! PM me!

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: What does Agnostic mean to you? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14336943 - 04/23/11 03:02 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Yay, another clueless member. Perhaps you can explain what constitutes proof of non-existence.





What does it matter?  You have asked this question but you have not argued nor demonstrated how it is relevant to the question of whether your correct to say someone who claims not to have sufficient proof nor disproof of god's existance is ignorant.

While I likely get your point that there can be no positive evidence showing the absence of some phenomena, only evidence tending to show that it would have been found if it had such and such charecteristics and such was not found: which may indeed prove something doesn't exist if that something is sufficiently defined such that the lack of observation is itself evidence of its nonexistance (such as god not answering prayers yet the bible claiming he answers prayers, performs miracles, heals people, et cet: this is all evidence of a christian god not existing despite it not being positive, direct, evidence of the absence of such which is impossible by definition)

That direct, positive, evidence showing some phenomena does not exist is impossible to provide in theory does not itself justify a belief that such is absent.  This belief is a positive claim just as anything else is: the fact that it cannot be proved means your belief in such would be unreasonable by definition.  It is no defense to your belief that you couldn't demonstrate yourself to be correct due to the nature of thing believed- in fact it makes your belief all the more unreasonable.  This is frequently encountered when discussing mystical mumbo jumbo with people who try to shift the burden of proof to some straw man argument: when you correct their fallacious demand they often fall back on the theoretical impossibility of obtaining direct, positive, evidence of the nonexistance of something that has no necessary observable consequences- criticizing your demand that they establish their claim.  That they cannot even in theory demonstrate their claim with any possible data only means they are all the more deluded.


Quote:

meatcakeman said:
i think you're right and the guy you were talking to just has no idea what atheism is.


Quote:

agnostic
–noun
1.
a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as god, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
2.
a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.






Quote:

agnosticism
–noun
1.
the doctrine or belief of an agnostic.
2.
an intellectual doctrine or attitude affirming the uncertainty of all claims to ultimate knowledge.





it's a common debate because many people can't define the line between agnosticism and atheism.




Dictionary definitions, especially with regards to terms that are both terms of art or specific concepts in one field yet also in the common lexicon, is not particularly helpful and often misleading.  As the definition of the word in a common dictionary is defined by common usage, the definition may differ from the accepted use within a field, i.e. philosophy and religion. i.e. energy as defined in a dictionary or as defined in physics.  Look at how its used in the magic fairy forum vs in physics- there's no similarity.

Either way, despite the vaugeries of the term (or even worse: the etymology or roots of a word which people try to use to demonstrate something or other), the persistant use of "atheist" for a belief which is described by the term "agnostic" seems just annoying.  Given that positive atheism is a seperate and discrete belief which many people identifying themselves as atheism claim the term to mean, it at best seems a poor choice and confusing to lable oneself atheist if they simply lack belief in god but do not believe god does not exist.

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Offlineampakine
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Registered: 04/23/11
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Re: What does Agnostic mean to you? [Re: johnm214]
    #14337069 - 04/23/11 04:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I don't believe in any of the ideas that any religions are based on but I don't disbelieve them. I don't know. Is that agnostic?

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: What does Agnostic mean to you? [Re: ampakine]
    #14338098 - 04/23/11 12:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

yup


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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InvisibleSalomon
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Re: What does Agnostic mean to you? [Re: bigmike7104] * 1
    #14340900 - 04/23/11 10:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

it is impossible to know anything as an absolute; including


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EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT


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