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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
U.S. Regime Change?
    #1430994 - 04/05/03 09:51 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

"What we need now is not just a regime change in Saddam Hussein and Iraq, but we need a regime change in the United States."

Democratic Sen John Kerry, accusing U.S. President George Bush of alienating allies around the world with the war in Iraq




http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22827-2003Apr3.html

Quite a balls-y thing to say for a presidential candidate...not that I don't agree with him on some level.


Edited by adrug (04/05/03 09:52 AM)


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: adrug]
    #1430997 - 04/05/03 09:54 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss......."



From "We won't get fooled again" by the who(1971)


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: adrug]
    #1431018 - 04/05/03 10:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It was good of Kerry to say that.

We do need a regime change now.



--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: Tides In - Trip With Me



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: adrug]
    #1431100 - 04/05/03 11:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I know who I'm voting for now.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: adrug]
    #1431154 - 04/05/03 11:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Kerry just served his last term and will never be president. This is going to hurt him bad.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1431158 - 04/05/03 11:47 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kerry just served his last term and will never be president. This is going to hurt him bad.



Well he'll never be prseident but those Massholes will keep him in office for a long time. After all, the keep voting Ted the Swimmer back in.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1431227 - 04/05/03 12:29 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i was assuming Kerry would quit to run for president but that's what i get when i assume.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1431342 - 04/05/03 01:49 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

i was assuming Kerry would quit to run for president but that's what i get when i assume.




I think Kerry has a shot (albeit a long one) if he sticks to his guns. If the voters dont want a US regime change, then they dont want elections.


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #1432008 - 04/05/03 07:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If the voters dont want a US regime change, then they dont want elections.




i have to admit that that was a smooth way to put it, but i don't think he even has a chance.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1432529 - 04/05/03 10:53 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Truthfully Verti, I don't think any Democrat has a chance...unfortunately. The Democratic party is very outspoken against this war, which is fine by me, but since the majority of Americans support this war....;)

Not to change the subject, but I heard today, on NBC I believe it was, that 70% of Americans support this war even if we don't find WoMD. Very sly of the Administration to take the humanitarian angle. What can I say, America took the bait, hook, line, and sinker. But hopefully some good will come of this for the Iraqi people. We've had some pretty poor luck with our decisions concerning the middle east in the past, hopefully this won't come back and bite us in the ass too.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: Learyfan]
    #1432547 - 04/05/03 11:06 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


 



Crap, is that a legit pic? I'm trying to read through the source of the pic, but I don't read squiggle. :confused:


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Edited by Ellis Dee (04/05/03 11:07 PM)


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1432556 - 04/05/03 11:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I'm pretty sure Bill would never admit that on TV even if it was his opinion. Then again, maybe he would. Its a fake.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1432648 - 04/05/03 11:53 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

IFB, not only that but 50 percent of americans would support us now going into syria if they did indeed aid the iraqis. I find it interesting that Russia, France and Germany have all started their move into the persian gulf, Russia fully strapped with nukes. I say, if they dont knock this off at baghdad then we shall see some real shocking and awing.

No to mention that I was watching an interview with various UN diplomats who stated that the United States has pretty much sealed the deal with going to war with NK. NK says, well hell, if you can ignore the UN then I can too-- come and get me, if you can.

However, I do disagree with you about the Democrats having no chance.. maybe with some more faulty voting machines, the bush junta shall be able to swing that. But regardless of the so called polls, many people are not liking a great deal of what the current repub incarnation is doing. From patriot acts to the absence of corporate accountability, the crash of the economy and a record high of 2.6 million jobs lost since 2000-- there is a very good possibility that by the time this regime is over people will be plenty sick of it and remember the times not to long before this presidency when we actually showed a surplus..


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: Learyfan]
    #1433035 - 04/06/03 06:54 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Here is the answer to all that ails you.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: adrug]
    #1433037 - 04/06/03 06:59 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, I realize that now. It had me going for a second until I realized the image of oreily looked to be taken from a tv snapshot and the talking point box looks clean, like it was superimposed on it.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineRadioActiveSlug
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: adrug]
    #1433080 - 04/06/03 08:44 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Don't forget that bush never won this election



"if voteing could change anything
it would be illegal"
-Phil Ochs


--------------------
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned." -Buddha
www.impeach-bush-now.org


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: RadioActiveSlug]
    #1433092 - 04/06/03 09:09 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Don't forget that bush never won this election



Merely repeating a lie over and over will not make it the truth.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1433292 - 04/06/03 12:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Don't forget that bush never won this election



Merely repeating a lie over and over will not make it the truth.



A more accurate statement is that he never won the election fairly.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1433322 - 04/06/03 12:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Don't forget that bush never won this election



Merely repeating a lie over and over will not make it the truth.



A more accurate statement is that he never won the election fairly.



No, a more accurate statement is that he won by the rules but that whining liberals who aren't happy he won don't like it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1433343 - 04/06/03 12:33 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

No, he won by a really bad Supreme Court decision.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1433352 - 04/06/03 12:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Not even close, the court merely upheld the rules by the constitution and pre-existing Florida election law.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1433356 - 04/06/03 12:41 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Ya, just keep telling yourself that...


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1433357 - 04/06/03 12:42 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ya, just keep telling yourself that...



I don't need to repeat facts over and over. If you disagree, back it up.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1433362 - 04/06/03 12:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Don't forget that bush never won this election



Merely repeating a lie over and over will not make it the truth.




I think we need to address the "lie" that the 2000 was stolen. To that end, i will post a link to an article by one of the experts: Charles Manson prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi, who is prolly more trustworthy than Scalia:

The Nation

Regime change is not a presidential-election issue as the Democratic slate now stands: implementing a regime change begins with the Democratic congressional primary elections. If the voters dont want repoop clones, it is well within their power to remove them from the ballot and elect them to public office.


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (04/06/03 12:56 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #1433366 - 04/06/03 12:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

And if the Court's five-member majority was concerned not about Bush but the voters themselves, as they fervently claimed to be, then under what conceivable theory would they, in effect, tell these voters, "We're so concerned that some of you undervoters may lose your vote under the different Florida county standards that we're going to solve the problem by making sure that none of you undervoters have your votes counted"? Isn't this exactly what the Court did?



No. The Supreme court was asked to rule on Florida election law. IE: The date the election was to be certified. They were not in any position to change the date. It is not the place of the courts to re-write election law.

That's the decision they made, and it was the correct one.

And all recounts done after the fact, with the exception of one, still show Bush as the winner in Florida. Most telling, the recount requested by the Gore team, if done before the results were certified, would have given Bush an even larger margin of victory.

Also, an article written by a producer is less than worthless as a legal example.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1433369 - 04/06/03 12:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It can't really be argued because the United States Supreme Court ruled on it. All the attorneys lined up from here to the moon saying otherwise won't make it so.

But it can certainly be argued that their ruling was a case of judical activism.

A great book to read on the subject is "Out of Order" by Max Boot.

http://www.ala.org/booklist/v94/adult/ap2/14boot.html


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1433377 - 04/06/03 12:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Also, an article written by a producer is less than worthless as a legal example.




Bugliosi is not a producer (did you mean like a TV producer??)


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1433379 - 04/06/03 12:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Ya, just keep telling yourself that...



I don't need to repeat facts over and over. If you disagree, back it up.



The fact is that the laws were not so clear-cut as to be able to simply say that the court was merely upholding Florida law. Clearly the Florida Supreme Court disagreed. I could argue about the fairness of this until the cows come home, but I think a U.S. Supreme Court Justice's dissent might make a better case for my point.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #1433380 - 04/06/03 01:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Also, an article written by a producer is less than worthless as a legal example.




Bugliosi is not a producer (did you mean like a TV producer??)





Sorry, misread the word prosecutor. My mistake.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1433382 - 04/06/03 01:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

So you are arguing that this is a case of judicial activism?


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Anonymous

Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1433390 - 04/06/03 01:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

:blush:

It takes a big person to admit when they are wrong.  We should all follow your example.

Cheers,


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1433393 - 04/06/03 01:04 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Apparently the majority of the court feels / felt otherwise.

I asked for you to back up your position with proof. A dissenting opinion doesn't count for squat when combined with the fact that the majority of the court and all recounts, including the one requested by the Gore team, show Bush as the winner.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: ]
    #1433395 - 04/06/03 01:04 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So you are arguing that this is a case of judicial activism?



Exactly


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1433401 - 04/06/03 01:06 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

That is certainly a fair argument.

You should check out the book I recommended. It is very good in my opinion.

The Court's history is pretty fascinating.

Cheers,


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1433405 - 04/06/03 01:08 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The majority was still a narrow majority(5-4). There is more than one dissenting opinion posted in the link I provided. You can read the dissenting opinions of all 4 of those who voted against the decision, as well as Rehnquist's concurrent opinion, if you like.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1433435 - 04/06/03 01:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I read all the opinions shortly after the ruling. They aren't worth reading a second time.

Bush won, the Supreme court did not select him. All they did was rule on points of law. It's a shame that people feel the need to continue lying about what happened.

The system was in place before the election. You do not change the rules in the middle of the game.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: ]
    #1433445 - 04/06/03 01:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It can't really be argued because the United States Supreme Court ruled on it. All the attorneys lined up from here to the moon saying otherwise won't make it so.

But it can certainly be argued that their ruling was a case of judical activism.

A great book to read on the subject is "Out of Order" by Max Boot.

Is he any realation to Jack Boot?  :smirk: 


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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1433449 - 04/06/03 01:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

From the link Annapurna posted:
Quote:

And if the Court's five-member majority was concerned not about Bush but the voters themselves, as they fervently claimed to be, then under what conceivable theory would they, in effect, tell these voters, "We're so concerned that some of you undervoters may lose your vote under the different Florida county standards that we're going to solve the problem by making sure that none of you undervoters have your votes counted"? Isn't this exactly what the Court did?



Also...
Quote:

If none of the undervotes were counted because of the various standards to count them, then to be completely consistent the Court would have had no choice but to invalidate the entire Florida election, since there is no question that votes lost in some counties because of the method of voting would have been recorded in others utilizing a different method.




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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (04/06/03 01:31 PM)


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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1433456 - 04/06/03 01:36 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

There was a rule, in pre-existing Florida election law requiring the vote to be certified by a certain date.

There was no chance of the recount being done by this date, there was no chance of the recount being done in time for the electoral vote. As a result the Supreme court disallowed further recounts. It was the law, the court upheld it, it was the legally correct decision. You do not change the rules in the middle of the game.

And even had the court allowed the Gore teams requested recount, Bush would still have won.

To suggest otherwise shows either an ignorance of the facts or a deliberate lie.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1433473 - 04/06/03 01:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

To suggest otherwise shows either an ignorance of the facts or a deliberate lie.



Then there are thousands upon thousands of legal experts who know more about law than you or I who are either ignorant or deliberately lying.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (04/06/03 01:44 PM)


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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: Learyfan]
    #1433506 - 04/06/03 02:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It was good of Kerry to say that.

We do need a regime change now.




True, but we don't need his kind of regime. We, the people of the U.S.A., need a regime that understands and adheres to the basic principles upon which our country was founded: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Unfortunately, as long as citizens continue to elect members of the two old, stagnant, liberty loathing parties,i.e., Republicons and Democraps, we will not have such a regime.



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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1433542 - 04/06/03 02:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

*used quick reply
I've got to point out the obvious conflicts of interest here, pointed out on page 3:

Quote:


(The fact that O'Connor, per the Wall Street Journal, said before the election that she wanted to retire but did not want to do so if a Democrat would be selecting her successor, that Thomas's wife is working for the conservative Heritage Foundation to help handle the Bush transition and that Scalia's two sons work for law firms representing Bush is all unneeded trivia. We already know, without this, exactly what happened.)




Great article so far, off to finish reading...



Edited by adrug (04/06/03 02:40 PM)


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Re: U.S. Regime Change? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1434350 - 04/06/03 09:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Not even close, the court merely upheld the rules by the constitution and pre-existing Florida election law.



I just don't believe that's so. The Supreme Court ruled on this specific instance only and explicitly stated that their decision was not precedent setting, an admission that they just did what they felt like, IMO. If the federal and state election laws would have been followed the recounts in selected counties only would have been permitted, and Bush would have still won by a tiny margin. The fact is that the SCOTUS didn't follow the laws and chose the president in defiance of the constitution and existing laws. The result of this medling is no different, but the SCOTUS's activist decision created a controversy that will last generations.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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