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Simms
Fuckwit


Registered: 11/17/08
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: Noteworthy]
#14311233 - 04/18/11 10:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I guess what I am implying here, is the question of what defines existance? WHere does one draw the line of existance?
Then we can talk about existance in understandable context.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: Simms]
#14311280 - 04/18/11 10:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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hard question. I would say that it is a primary thing and cant be properly defined with other words.
Things exist in contexts
there is the context of our mind
the context of stories that we paint
the physical reality is a story that is maximally consistent with all reported phenomenon, which themselves are small stories that we paint
but all the stories exist in the mind, which exists in an undescribable context (because we cant get out of the mind to inspect it)
yeah its hard to say
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: Noteworthy]
#14312138 - 04/18/11 01:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said: The special thing about the words 'I am' is that if you say them, and think about it, there is no way that you can doubt them.
How many things can claim the same inability to be doubted?
This is elementary. Descartes worked it out hundreds of years ago
What's also elementary is that since then, philosophers have been ripping Descartes a new metaphorical asshole. First problem with the "cogito ergo sum" is the jump from "I think" to "I exist," namely the lack of justification for the premise that all thinking things have the property of existence.
Also, what is thinking, and how do you know you're doing it? Couldn't there be thoughts without one who thinks them, as well?
It's ontologically worthless, IMO (and in the opinions of probably most philosophers today).
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: NetDiver]
#14313748 - 04/18/11 08:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not entirely sure "I exist" is self-evident; wouldn't "there are thoughts" be a simpler, ontologically prior belief? And just because there are thoughts does not necessarily mean there has to be a thinking thing that is independent of its environment.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Mind Transcribing
Candy Baron



Registered: 11/08/09
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Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: Focusing on "I am"... [Re: NetDiver]
#14314180 - 04/18/11 10:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: Guruu, have you ever heard the story of the blind men and the elephant?
A bunch of blind guys touch an elephant to learn what it is like. Each one feels a different part- one feels the trunk, and says "Ah, an elephant is like a snake." Another feels its leg and says "oh, so elephants are like trees." Yet another feels the tail and says "elephants are like ropes!"
You're like one of the blind men, but rather than realizing your own limited perception of the truth, you shout "I've got it! Guys, there's an elephant!" No shit, sherlock, but you didn't really answer any questions.
Fucking epic
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: NetDiver]
#14314240 - 04/18/11 10:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
Noteworthy said: The special thing about the words 'I am' is that if you say them, and think about it, there is no way that you can doubt them.
How many things can claim the same inability to be doubted?
This is elementary. Descartes worked it out hundreds of years ago
What's also elementary is that since then, philosophers have been ripping Descartes a new metaphorical asshole. First problem with the "cogito ergo sum" is the jump from "I think" to "I exist," namely the lack of justification for the premise that all thinking things have the property of existence.
Also, what is thinking, and how do you know you're doing it? Couldn't there be thoughts without one who thinks them, as well?
It's ontologically worthless, IMO (and in the opinions of probably most philosophers today).
well ive not heard much of these responses in a popular sense. It seems most disagreements with the cogito have to do with the things descartes concludes from the cogito rather than the cogito itself...
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 12 days
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: deCypher]
#14314291 - 04/18/11 10:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: I'm not entirely sure "I exist" is self-evident; wouldn't "there are thoughts" be a simpler, ontologically prior belief? And just because there are thoughts does not necessarily mean there has to be a thinking thing that is independent of its environment.
not sure how this makes sense. The cogito is not meant to prove the existance of anyone else's mind, just your own, and only if you indeed are conscious.
'There are thoughts' is not as basic as 'I exist'. If there are thoughts then there is something doing the thinking. Unless you define thoughts as computations, in which case a computer could be processing them. But thats not what thougths are to the thinking being. they have both a reducable part and an irreducable part - the latter being the computation occuring (if any) and the former being the experience of the thought, and of volition of having the thought.
If you do experience these things then to say that 'I AM' is in fact the most basic thing you can say and is necessarily true. I don't actually think you can conclude anything else beyond that. But it is pretty profound in itself. Many people dont see the profundidty, I think this is because they are focussed highly on understanding how things mean to the rest of the community or to the physical world, rather than to themselves. The fact that you exist (if you do) is clear as daylight and irrefutable. Also, you can't be fooled about the matter. If you do exist and you deny your own existance, then you are just confused. However, something that didnt exist coudl still claim to exist or not exist and it wouldn't make a difference to anyone else.
Essentially, we don't actually exist to eachother. Only our physical selves and our behaviors exist to other people
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synapz
pee on flowing lava = fail


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 80
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: Poid]
#14318899 - 04/19/11 06:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I always know I am
because
I can't
KNOW
I am NOT
cuz
that's fucking retarded
makes no fucking sense
-------------------- Oh Snapz
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: Poid]
#14319234 - 04/19/11 07:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: ...I am. 
Wait, nothing happened! Can somebody tell me why nothing totally completely amazing happened when I focused on "I AM"? 
EDIT: Apparently it's "I AM", not "I am". 
it's for when you forget that you're alive. It's not some hocus pocus magic trick to debunk with your usual debate tactics and/or arrogance.
Nothing happened because you aren't really focusing on it, you're focusing on your self and how much smarter you think you are 
You're alive. We all know this but take it for granted. Maybe "I AM" doesnt work for you because you don't relate to it. It's not a magic spell, it's about the intent you feel inside. It can be a powerful thing to know that you're alive. If you don't understand now then you will if you ever end up really focusing on it.
but it's also easy to forget. Hence the "I AM" mantra. It's just a mantra. It works if you can actually feel it from the inside. It shifts your attention which by nature can have powerful results. It's not supposed to turn wine into gold or anything.
it's a personal thing. It's just focusing on a concept. Results may vary
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: the bizzle]
#14319481 - 04/19/11 07:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not alive. I'm already dead.
This whole thing is just a crazy dream some chemicals are having.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: the bizzle]
#14319579 - 04/19/11 08:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
the bizzle said:
Quote:
Poid said: ...I am. 
Wait, nothing happened! Can somebody tell me why nothing totally completely amazing happened when I focused on "I AM"? 
EDIT: Apparently it's "I AM", not "I am". 
it's for when you forget that you're alive.
That hasn't happened to me once.
Quote:
the bizzle said: It's not some hocus pocus magic trick to debunk with your usual debate tactics and/or arrogance.
and/or If it's not some hocus pocus magic trick, then what is it? Complete bullshit? 
Quote:
the bizzle said: Nothing happened because you aren't really focusing on it, you're focusing on your self and how much smarter you think you are 
Of course you know this because you're psychic and all. 
Quote:
the bizzle said: You're alive. We all know this but take it for granted. Maybe "I AM" doesnt work for you because you don't relate to it. It's not a magic spell, it's about the intent you feel inside. It can be a powerful thing to know that you're alive. If you don't understand now then you will if you ever end up really focusing on it.
Wow, if that's really what it is, then guruu sure did a shitty-ass job at explaining it. 
I am constantly focusing on myself, I can't not.
Quote:
the bizzle said: but it's also easy to forget. Hence the "I AM" mantra. It's just a mantra. It works if you can actually feel it from the inside.
That's exactly what I told guruu.
Quote:
the bizzle said: it's a personal thing. It's just focusing on a concept. Results may vary
Not according to guruu.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: NetDiver]
#14319591 - 04/19/11 08:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm not alive. I'm already dead.
I just made a post about being already dead. The ideas are not really in conflict.
"I am"...the rest is just my personal interpretation. I forgot I was alive. I'm alive and already dead. Reminds me of that expression "the devil is in the details."
I don't ever really say "I AM" to myself, but I do like it, because just being anything at all is pretty mindblowing, imo. It's easy to take that for granted
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
Edited by the bizzle (04/19/11 08:26 PM)
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: the bizzle]
#14319640 - 04/19/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I am constantly focusing on myself, I can't not.
that's why this is over your head. But it's really not, you just need to let go of making it more complicated than it is
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
Edited by the bizzle (04/19/11 08:31 PM)
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DarkMatterOfFact
ZealtheDealforthePill



Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 1,602
Loc: South Cali
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: the bizzle]
#14319953 - 04/19/11 09:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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you are what you are and thats all you are
but i am what i am because i am all that i am....and more then i am.
--------------------
Nixon was a asshole. Just look at his biggest creation. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the DEA. Which secretly stands for Demonizing Everyone by Allegations.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: the bizzle]
#14319968 - 04/19/11 09:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
the bizzle said:
Quote:
I am constantly focusing on myself, I can't not.
that's why this is over your head. But it's really not, you just need to let go of making it more complicated than it is
It's not over my head at all--what's hilarious is that guruu thinks this is some super-amazing thing, and it's nothing but plain and ordinary to me.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: Poid]
#14321014 - 04/20/11 12:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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guruu never told me whether or not he'd heard the story.
Now I feel ignored.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: NetDiver]
#14321852 - 04/20/11 07:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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haha...
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Simms
Fuckwit


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,109
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: NetDiver]
#14323387 - 04/20/11 02:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: I'm not alive. I'm already dead.
This whole thing is just a crazy dream some chemicals are having. 
Probably. Because You can not know if you are alive unless you have been dead
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: NetDiver]
#14327991 - 04/21/11 02:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: guruu never told me whether or not he'd heard the story.
Now I feel ignored. 
fear not my friend. But, in your story, this would be like the blind men all touching the same thing. We all have being. We all exist, do we not? I am is the one thing we all share.
Look yall, sorry if you don't wanna do this simple meditation sincerely, but i happen to know it works wonders. Just be there with yourself, be in the moment, be-ing, focusing on i am. Keeping silent. I'm only tryin to help people have some
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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Humility
Working on it



Registered: 10/07/08
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Re: Focusing on "I AM"... [Re: g00ru]
#14332419 - 04/22/11 09:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wow what's up with the hate? Did Guruu make any statements as to dogmatic approaches or set-in-stone methodology to achieve ends?
I didn't see that.
I AM may not work for you, that's perfectly fine, there are infinite roads and paths.
It is however sufficient. To be quite frank I find it to be the most direct, sincere and simple route. It's the only thing you can ever prove.
Many here will go into mental gymnastics about why I AM may or may not be true, but the fact is "The experience" has been with you as long as you can remember; it is all there is, it is all you know. It is the only constant.
Everything else is wallpaper.
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