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Offlineevildee125
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: bholzer]
    #14312896 - 04/18/11 03:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

excellent post nature boy


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OfflineFUTURIST
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: Nature Boy]
    #14313642 - 04/18/11 08:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Nature Boy said:
Quote:

TheCreampie said:
The effects of higher dose mushrooms, lsd and DMT, when the person feels as if their one with the universe, astral traveling, watching the pyramids getting built by UFOs. Could it all just be utter bullshit that apparently becomes extremely convincing?




Yes...of course it can be.  And it probably is in a way...it just depends on your "standard."  The substances you mention each have an effect on your mind, and your mind, and its state(s) define your reality.  Alter the mind and you alter your reality.  Doesn't matter what you use.  Magnets, surgery, drumming, chanting, meditation, pain, dehydration, starvation, strobing lights, sleep deprivation, drugs...the list goes on and on.

So...which state of mind do you want to call "standard?"  A straight mind?  A stoned mind?  An angry mind?  A jealous mind?  A frustrated mind?  You see where this is going?  If your standard is an angry mind, then a peaceful mind is "abnormal".  Its all subjective and relative.

N.B.




Word:thumbup:


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OfflineEat LSD
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: TheCreampie] * 1
    #14313760 - 04/18/11 08:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Certainly it could all be total bullshit.  But sometimes. psychedelics will tamper with parts of your mind that would previously never been touched.  This tampering could lead to life changing experiences and mind alterations.  Sure, it could all be bullshit, but I know stories where psychedelics actually shaped people into better versions of themselves.


--------------------
:mushroom2::tongue2:

Nothing is real
-The Beatles


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OfflineHygrocybe
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: TheCreampie]
    #14313912 - 04/18/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

We define genuine belief as that which can be objectively verified. But who defined those objective measures? What did they believe?

I don't like the way the West has become obsessed with the objective world, when our experience of the world is subjective. You can see this in political debates in how divergent views are never accepted, there can only be one correct belief, supported by evidence. People will throw objective facts back and forth as if they matter, when the debate is usually a result of subjective beliefs that can't be proven.

I like McKenna because he took his psychedelic experience and made it a part of culture. It doesn't matter whether it was objectively true or crazy. I think the question you should ask is does it do harm?


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OfflineNunbuh_Chrubble
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: Hygrocybe]
    #14314429 - 04/18/11 10:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

like a year and a half ago I finally realized The Secret on a really high dose of really good LSD. I finally got to the heart of the mystery which I had been chasing every since I was a young boy pondering the difference between dreams and reality.

The secret is NOTHING. The heart of everything, which we turn into some big quest for something important and meaningful... there's nothing there. And because there's nothing there, there are an infinite number of belief systems/though structures that emerge out of this effort to chase down nothing. And none of it makes sense the closer to the heart of it that you get.

We are literally creating the world through our actions, words, and ideas. And maybe if we all stopped taking our bullshit so seriously we could start to act in ways that actually make the world a better place.

It was a pretty profound realization. Yet nothing was realized! :tmckenna:


--------------------


"This day is a lover..."

~Rumi


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Offlinebholzer
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: Nunbuh_Chrubble]
    #14314456 - 04/18/11 10:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Nunbuh_Chrubble said:
like a year and a half ago I finally realized The Secret on a really high dose of really good LSD. I finally got to the heart of the mystery which I had been chasing every since I was a young boy pondering the difference between dreams and reality.

The secret is NOTHING. The heart of everything, which we turn into some big quest for something important and meaningful... there's nothing there. And because there's nothing there, there are an infinite number of belief systems/though structures that emerge out of this effort to chase down nothing. And none of it makes sense the closer to the heart of it that you get.

We are literally creating the world through our actions, words, and ideas. And maybe if we all stopped taking our bullshit so seriously we could start to act in ways that actually make the world a better place.

It was a pretty profound realization. Yet nothing was realized! :tmckenna:




I had this same exact realization a couple years back, on 3 tabs of good LSD!

I have always been an atheist, but that was the night that I realized that nothing could ever shake my belief system, because I believed in nothing. I believed in the actions of humans that shaped everything around us. So glad I saw this post.


--------------------


Use these substances wisely, they have the ability to cause life altering realizations.


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OfflineNunbuh_Chrubble
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: bholzer]
    #14314551 - 04/18/11 10:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

haha! yeah, nothing is fucking CRAZY! What a wild trip that was! I had this vision of the entire universe unfolding into a blossoming multi-dimensional fractal of all conscious experience from this pin-point of nothing, all in this brilliant flash! I saw past lives, and understood how karma (action) works, and really had all my questions about the universe answered. I no longer wonder about any of that shit like I used to.

My ego was crazy shattered after I came out of that flash. My mind was smeared across several different layers of reality. Simultaneously I was a Buddha the enlightened prince surrounded by a host of deities, and also I was just some kid who was tripping complete face on acid sitting around a campfire with a bunch of old hippies. Every conversation had a mundane meaning but also a profound enlightened meaning. I had a conversation with a woman about who her daughter was addicted to world of warcraft, and had developed an internet relationship with somebody from the game, but had misrepresented her gender through her fictional character and had caused a ton of drama and conflict. On one level it was a discussion about a video game, but on another level it was this metaphor for how we descend into the world of consciousness and assume these identities and get so wrapped up in this fiction of Self, and the result is all this suffering and confusion.

Oh man, such a SERIOUS life changing trip! I could go on and on and on about it. The realization of nothingness has so many implications for our conduct and places compassion as the fundamental basis of all morality...


--------------------


"This day is a lover..."

~Rumi


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OfflineNature Boy
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: Eat LSD]
    #14315695 - 04/19/11 04:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Eat LSD said:
Certainly it could all be total bullshit.  But sometimes. psychedelics will tamper with parts of your mind that would previously never been touched.  This tampering could lead to life changing experiences and mind alterations.  Sure, it could all be bullshit, but I know stories where psychedelics actually shaped people into better versions of themselves.




Whoa...I never said it was "total" bullshit.  LOTS of things change you in a very permanent way.  Marriage, having children, getting a degree, getting divorced, death of a loved one, drugs.  None of those EVENTS are bullshit...in fact, they're every-day occurrences.

But that's all they are...simple EVENTS that often re-direct a life.  They have measurable effects down the road.  Drugs definitely make the list, and can be both positive and negative.  Positive, and life affirming - happy marriage, healthy child, good trip with friends, etc.  Get arrested for drugs?  Probably (although not necessarily) negative.

N.B.


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InvisibleGerman Kahuna
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: TheCreampie]
    #14315790 - 04/19/11 06:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I've been using psychedelic drugs for over 25 years and after having used them for a quarter of a century I feel like I am in an authorized position to contribute to this discussion.

I have to say that I agree with most things JoeMolloy has to say on the subject, except for two things: a) frequent drug users aren't all failures (I certainly know I am not, to the contrary, I am successful both personally and professionally) and b) the way he sticks his opinion into people's faces. A healthy and fruitful discussion should not be led in a condescending manner unless your sole intention is to piss people off and in that case you can save yourself the hassle of even entering into the discussion, because people won't take you and your point of view serious.

Now, that said, I know that no drug - not one of them - is something like a holy sacrament (at least not for us WalMart shopping part-time shamans not living in the Amazon rain forest far from civilization). They are just shortcuts to the pleasure dome. I don't want to run a marathon to have my brain flooded with endorphines, so I'll just cut a chunk out of a Fentanyl patch and suck on it. Same with DMT. Smoking a few chunks of it is easier than getting yourself in a near death experience situation.

Drugs are chemical catalysts for certain states that living beings - not only humans, but animals, too - desire to be in. They are, in a way, "enablers". But any realization that one experiences from their use comes from within. You'd be able to come to the very same realization through, say, meditation if you practiced it long enough. And the visuals you get from LSD, mushrooms and other psychedelics, for example, are funky to look at, nothing more. They don't tell you anything that you didn't know or wouldn't know without them.
Most people don't want to meditate for years or run a marathon to reach a certain state, because we are naturally lazy. That's ok. Nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is to idealize and glorify drugs and their use. I see it here all the time. Most people that do it will at some point realize that it's wrong. And some of the ones that don't will end up as fuckups and failures if their lives revolve around seeking enlightenment through the use of drugs.

I use drugs seeking pleasure not enlightenment and I ain't gonna lie to myself about it either.


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"Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".


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InvisibleCyclohexylamine
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: Azure Essence]
    #14315862 - 04/19/11 07:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Azure Essence said:
Essentially EVERYTHING is bullshit. This seems to be the part Joe isnt really grasping. Your mortgage? Bullshit. You Phone? Yeah, it's bullshit too. Your favorite TV show? Also bulshit. Spaghetti? shullbit. All of life? bullshit bullshit bullshit.

Nothing has any inherent meaning in and of itself. You can just as easily claim ANYTHING anyone likes and gets meaning from is bullshit. "No man, that music doesnt make you think, it's bullshit. It's just a series of sounds and vebrations your ears are interpreting as......."

We create meaning. Shulgin made this point goddamn decades ago. It wasnt the small amount of white powder that lead to his mystical states, they were merely a primer, such as art, such as music, such as religion, such as life. They're all just as bullshit as we choose for them to be.

The same attitude that says it's bullshit is the same that discounts the placebo effect. But the placebo effect is the greatest discovery to day and SHOULD BE THE AIM of all medicine and healing. They are forgetting the other half of the equation... SURE a sugar pill didnt eliminate your intestinal polyp..... BUT YOUR MIND DID! THATS THE IMPORTANT THING. Anything that grants the mind power to perform outside of how we normally perceive is a wonderful thing.

So yes, if psychedelics are bullshit, then why stop the list there? Music, sex, love, art, fun, good vibes, kindness, and individuality are all bullshit in the context. But nothing is inherently just bullshit, and when we get to the point where we decide to ascribe value to each of those experiences, then we must ascribe a value to psychedelics too, which cannot possible just be bullshit.

Nevermind Joe is always talking about tripping every weekend for the last, what, 3 years? I mean come ON, that frequency will make anything bullshit.




My point is, nothing is inherently anything, bullshit or not. It's all about you. To Joe, psy's are bullshit. Fine, be happy with that, but dont go spewing it like it's the fucking gospel truth




+1 Azure

And with this can we please STFU about all this?
Fuck. Its so annoying, people jumping on the bandwagon.
Think for your fucking selfs guys.
Seriously.
Throwing around a stupid slogan is lame, immature, and shows that alot of you guys are probably underage. I notice most of the ones making these posts have like 20-50 posts.

Have whatever opinion you want but don't just throw around a catchy slogan so you can be "cool too".

Because that's all this is.


--------------------
Yes this is tymo - I just changed my name

Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to awake from that dream? How would you know the difference between that dream world and the real world?


There is NOTHING better than feeling that warm dissociative fuzz creeping up your body from IM K
Something abut that anaesthetic rush... :inlove:

Qualitative Research Chemical Effects and Experiences
The Wonderful World of Methoxetamine
The 3-Meo-PCP Chapters, Part One


Edited by Cyclohexylamine (04/19/11 07:03 AM)


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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: Cyclohexylamine]
    #14316002 - 04/19/11 08:03 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

as a user of 17 years, i don't think the experience is bullshit. i learn with every trip and have had some profound experiences that not only caused me to change my religious outlook, but also realize that my entire view of reality is a misapprehension.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Offlinebholzer
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: German Kahuna]
    #14316405 - 04/19/11 10:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

German Kahuna said:
I've been using psychedelic drugs for over 25 years and after having used them for a quarter of a century I feel like I am in an authorized position to contribute to this discussion.

I have to say that I agree with most things JoeMolloy has to say on the subject, except for two things: a) frequent drug users aren't all failures (I certainly know I am not, to the contrary, I am successful both personally and professionally) and b) the way he sticks his opinion into people's faces. A healthy and fruitful discussion should not be led in a condescending manner unless your sole intention is to piss people off and in that case you can save yourself the hassle of even entering into the discussion, because people won't take you and your point of view serious.

Now, that said, I know that no drug - not one of them - is something like a holy sacrament (at least not for us WalMart shopping part-time shamans not living in the Amazon rain forest far from civilization). They are just shortcuts to the pleasure dome. I don't want to run a marathon to have my brain flooded with endorphines, so I'll just cut a chunk out of a Fentanyl patch and suck on it. Same with DMT. Smoking a few chunks of it is easier than getting yourself in a near death experience situation.

Drugs are chemical catalysts for certain states that living beings - not only humans, but animals, too - desire to be in. They are, in a way, "enablers". But any realization that one experiences from their use comes from within. You'd be able to come to the very same realization through, say, meditation if you practiced it long enough. And the visuals you get from LSD, mushrooms and other psychedelics, for example, are funky to look at, nothing more. They don't tell you anything that you didn't know or wouldn't know without them.
Most people don't want to meditate for years or run a marathon to reach a certain state, because we are naturally lazy. That's ok. Nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is to idealize and glorify drugs and their use. I see it here all the time. Most people that do it will at some point realize that it's wrong. And some of the ones that don't will end up as fuckups and failures if their lives revolve around seeking enlightenment through the use of drugs.

I use drugs seeking pleasure not enlightenment and I ain't gonna lie to myself about it either.




One of the best posts in this thread.


--------------------


Use these substances wisely, they have the ability to cause life altering realizations.


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OfflineNature Boy
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: bholzer]
    #14318615 - 04/19/11 05:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bholzer said:
Quote:

German Kahuna said:
I've been using psychedelic drugs for over 25 years and after having used them for a quarter of a century I feel like I am in an authorized position to contribute to this discussion.

I have to say that I agree with most things JoeMolloy has to say on the subject, except for two things: a) frequent drug users aren't all failures (I certainly know I am not, to the contrary, I am successful both personally and professionally) and b) the way he sticks his opinion into people's faces. A healthy and fruitful discussion should not be led in a condescending manner unless your sole intention is to piss people off and in that case you can save yourself the hassle of even entering into the discussion, because people won't take you and your point of view serious.

Now, that said, I know that no drug - not one of them - is something like a holy sacrament (at least not for us WalMart shopping part-time shamans not living in the Amazon rain forest far from civilization). They are just shortcuts to the pleasure dome. I don't want to run a marathon to have my brain flooded with endorphines, so I'll just cut a chunk out of a Fentanyl patch and suck on it. Same with DMT. Smoking a few chunks of it is easier than getting yourself in a near death experience situation.

Drugs are chemical catalysts for certain states that living beings - not only humans, but animals, too - desire to be in. They are, in a way, "enablers". But any realization that one experiences from their use comes from within. You'd be able to come to the very same realization through, say, meditation if you practiced it long enough. And the visuals you get from LSD, mushrooms and other psychedelics, for example, are funky to look at, nothing more. They don't tell you anything that you didn't know or wouldn't know without them.
Most people don't want to meditate for years or run a marathon to reach a certain state, because we are naturally lazy. That's ok. Nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is to idealize and glorify drugs and their use. I see it here all the time. Most people that do it will at some point realize that it's wrong. And some of the ones that don't will end up as fuckups and failures if their lives revolve around seeking enlightenment through the use of drugs.

I use drugs seeking pleasure not enlightenment and I ain't gonna lie to myself about it either.




One of the best posts in this thread.




Yep.  Gotta agree.  Nicely said German Kahuna.  :thumbup:

N.B.


--------------------
All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies.  Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit.  Note well:  Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend.  If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.

                                                                               


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Offlineevildee125
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: Nature Boy]
    #14319105 - 04/19/11 06:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

bullshit or not is irrelevant... its still a profound experience...:awecid:


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OfflineMind Transcribing
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: Nunbuh_Chrubble]
    #14319862 - 04/19/11 09:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Nunbuh_Chrubble said:
like a year and a half ago I finally realized The Secret on a really high dose of really good LSD. I finally got to the heart of the mystery which I had been chasing every since I was a young boy pondering the difference between dreams and reality.

The secret is NOTHING. The heart of everything, which we turn into some big quest for something important and meaningful... there's nothing there. And because there's nothing there, there are an infinite number of belief systems/though structures that emerge out of this effort to chase down nothing. And none of it makes sense the closer to the heart of it that you get.

We are literally creating the world through our actions, words, and ideas. And maybe if we all stopped taking our bullshit so seriously we could start to act in ways that actually make the world a better place.

It was a pretty profound realization. Yet nothing was realized! :tmckenna:


:congrats:

This thread actually has a lot of rationality...strange for this particular subforum.


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OfflineDr.Knotts Pinning
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: Mind Transcribing]
    #14320049 - 04/19/11 09:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

dude,I just wanted to say
BEST SIGNATURE EVER !!!!!!!
IMO psychedelics don't show you absolute truth
They show you new possibilities


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
:mjk: :mjk1: :mjk2:


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OfflineMattm
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: TheCreampie]
    #14320075 - 04/19/11 09:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

TheCreampie said:
The effects of higher dose mushrooms, lsd and DMT, when the person feels as if their one with the universe, astral traveling, watching the pyramids getting built by UFOs. Could it all just be utter bullshit that apparently becomes extremely convincing?





Who cares? It's life, have fun with it!


--------------------
Good bye to everyone, my time here was well spent, and I think I have gained a lot from coming here. The internet has become to much of a priority for me, and I think I am ready to let it go for a while. < Who am I kidding...I'm hooked for life.


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Offlinenoobieman
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: Dr.Knotts Pinning]
    #14320150 - 04/19/11 10:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

To say we do something because it gives us pleasure is not actually informative. Dopamine (happy juice) is part of all motivation to do anything.

The question here is whether or not a person can derive something more than pleasure from a psychedelic experience: insight. And some of us may find that a quiet park or a starry night can provide a setting that alters consciousness and facilitates insight. We can argue that dopamine is what is facilitating that insight, but really all external phenomena are just jerking around our inner chemistry.

In the same way that you might gain insight from a quiet park bench and I might not, psychedelics may bring me insight that you don't get fm the experience. There need not be any judgment about that. But let's not presume that we all do the park or the drugs solely for the dopamine.

Also: to say I would get the same insights from something else is very presumptuous. I don't know that my brain chemistry is geared for meditation and laziness has little to do with it. If I don't enjoy or feel comfortable meditating, how would I get the same experience as someone who does? I might get insight from killing someone or torching a house but I'm not in inclined to do those things either.


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Offlineevildee125
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: Mind Transcribing]
    #14329274 - 04/21/11 06:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mind Transcribing said:
Quote:

Nunbuh_Chrubble said:
like a year and a half ago I finally realized The Secret on a really high dose of really good LSD. I finally got to the heart of the mystery which I had been chasing every since I was a young boy pondering the difference between dreams and reality.

The secret is NOTHING. The heart of everything, which we turn into some big quest for something important and meaningful... there's nothing there. And because there's nothing there, there are an infinite number of belief systems/though structures that emerge out of this effort to chase down nothing. And none of it makes sense the closer to the heart of it that you get.

We are literally creating the world through our actions, words, and ideas. And maybe if we all stopped taking our bullshit so seriously we could start to act in ways that actually make the world a better place.

It was a pretty profound realization. Yet nothing was realized! :tmckenna:


:congrats:

.




this was very much my experience on the last high dose of mushrooms i took about a year ago... it was very much a crushing experience at the time, considering everything i had read and believed up to that moment...all i saw was a being (myself)creating experiences, because theres was nothing else to do...i believe were all just bored as fuck... nothing else to it


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Kaleidoscope said:
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OfflineSubconscious
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Re: Could the whole psychedelic state be bullshit? [Re: evildee125]
    #14330155 - 04/21/11 09:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I wouldn't call psychedelics bullshit, but I think it depends on the specific persons intentions and how they integrate the experiences.

I derive nothing spiritual from psychedelics, I simply use them as a means to view the world from an altered perspective. They do just that and have had a very positive impact on my life. Although I have a deep respect for them I would not consider them "sacred".

In vulnerable individuals I think psychedelics have the potential to make people derive too much meaning from the experiences, and in the end they put too much faith into illusions and what I would consider bullshit. But who am I to judge.

Physchedelics can definatly be bullshit, but they can also be extremely benificial- as with anything else in life.


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