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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles
    #14307814 - 04/17/11 05:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Warning: this thread may be offensive to some even though this is one time I am not trying to be.

The point of this thread is simple: confirmation bias.

Years ago, I was best internet friends with Mr.Mushrooms. When I questioned his 'miraculous' healing of cancer through prayer, that ended our friendship even though mny questions were very gentle. He explained his answered prayer was proof of a personal God.

I explained that the ONLY people who spoke of miracle cancer healings were the survivors and their friends and families. The victims NEVER spoke of such prayers being answered.

Now we have one more cancer victim who is unable to tell us of his miracle healing. :sad:


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OfflineSimms
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14310581 - 04/18/11 06:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The Devil must have gotten to him.


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Edited by Simms (04/18/11 06:31 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: Simms]
    #14310869 - 04/18/11 08:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So the fact that confirmation bias obviously does exist therefore negates the veracity of all reports of healing through prayer etc?


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OfflineHeffy
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14310931 - 04/18/11 08:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Why were you willing to sacrifice your friendship over your belief that healing is unrelated to prayer?

Would it not be better to remain friends and accept that he believes something you find absurd?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: Heffy]
    #14311190 - 04/18/11 10:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I was not aware that asking pointed questions as to the nature of the miracle on a debate board would end the friendship.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut] * 1
    #14311215 - 04/18/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
So the fact that confirmation bias obviously does exist therefore negates the veracity of all reports of healing through prayer etc?




Yay, another long-term member unable to grasp the concept of proving a negative. :congrats:

And thus we stay stuck on square one.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14312348 - 04/18/11 02:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Why dont you just answer the question and stop playing silly games?


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14312410 - 04/18/11 02:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
So the fact that confirmation bias obviously does exist therefore negates the veracity of all reports of healing through prayer etc?



It's more like all reports of healing are explained by confirmation bias. Obviously there are many, many people who prayed for healing but didn't receive it- does God not care about them?


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: NetDiver]
    #14312477 - 04/18/11 02:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Sounded to me like OC was using confirmation bias as an explanation and then ducking GazzBut's question. Of course the original post was so sketchy it could be taken a lot of ways, but I'd say he was ducking the question.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: NetDiver]
    #14312591 - 04/18/11 02:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


It's more like all reports of healing are explained by confirmation bias




I see no facts here. Just unproven belief.


Why do most people normally have to come down on one side of the argument? why cant people just be open to both possiblities? I can say with a high degree of certainty that nobody on this forum knows whether prayer has the power to heal SOME people or not. But most people on here choose their favourite guess and then defend it to the hilt like a bunch of school kids in the playground and then pretend this passes for philisophical debate!!!!


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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14312923 - 04/18/11 03:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The Placebo effect is stronger in some than others.  Mind over matter, for some.

Faith healing = placebo, which can be very very strong.

I think it is absurd people bash faith healing when the placebo effect is such a proven phenomenon.  They are almost identical phenomenon (if you think it works, it will), albeit from drastically different angles.  You are bashing something that is outside of your belief system.  But when you rehash the same idea in your own belief system, it becomes perfectly normal fine right?



So, OC, do you have some argument against the placebo effect?

The mind couldn't possible have an effect on the body!


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


Edited by Cannashroom (04/18/11 03:35 PM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14313159 - 04/18/11 04:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You simply misunderstand the limits of the placebo effect. There are absolutely no controlled studies that showed that one can cure oneself of cancer simply by the power of the mind. Please get your facts straight 'cause you sound silly.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14314131 - 04/18/11 09:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
So the fact that confirmation bias obviously does exist therefore negates the veracity of all reports of healing through prayer etc?





No, how would you get this from the post?  The point was that the self reporting of cancer cures is neccesarily skewed to those who have affected a cure or some sort of 'healing" as the dead people, very sick people, are not reporting such opinions.  This selection bias skewes the sample very dramatically from the population you wish to study.

Compounding the initial problem, those in the allready skewed-population are self-reporting cure, healing, which they have no way of knowing short of a very long period of no detected cancer.  Truely: when cancer is not detectable that is all it means: it does not mean you are cured.  These individuals who feel they've been healed are confirming what they have an emotional need to confirm and often would face dissonance between their otherwise wasted time, money, commitment, strained relationships, if they did not confirm, and hence their self-reports are not particularly worthwhile.

Quote:

Heffy said:
Why were you willing to sacrifice your friendship over your belief that healing is unrelated to prayer?

Would it not be better to remain friends and accept that he believes something you find absurd?




Why would you ask this question? I mean, its irrelevant what his motivation was, but I just cannot believe you would broach such a sensitive subject and threaten our friendship.  I just cannot continue to be friends with someone who would ask Orgone that question.  I'm sorry.

Why you felt asking that question was worth sacrificing our friendship I'll never know, but i guess it was more important to you.

Quote:

So, OC, do you have some argument against the placebo effect?

The mind couldn't possible have an effect on the body!




Why is it absurd to criticize faith healing?  What evidence do you have that faith healing cures cancer?  You seem to just suggest that the placebo effect justifies belief in such, but you present no evidence at all, even going so far as to presume that others who've stated their opposition would agree with your stance.

Moreover: what does the placebo effect have to do with whether faith healing is efficacious?

You don't even make an argument, just conclusions.  What do you base these upon?


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InvisibleKid_Orgo
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14314210 - 04/18/11 10:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
why cant people just be open to both possiblities? I can say with a high degree of certainty that nobody on this forum knows whether prayer has the power to heal SOME people or not.




Tom believes in unicorns.
I don't believe in unicorns.
We should both admit that there may well be some unicorns.

Obviously you can't prove a negative. Unicorns MAY exist, but to imply that the two possibilities should be treated equally because one isn't impossible doesn't make sense to me.

People's sledgehammer approaches to the question clearly reflect their belief in the relative likelihoods of the two options.

EDIT: It also reflects the purpose of this forum, and of debate in general. We're expected to present reasoned defenses of our ideas and change minds by virtue of those defenses. It doesn't work without passion.


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He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


Edited by Kid_Orgo (04/18/11 10:28 PM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: johnm214]
    #14315321 - 04/19/11 01:19 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


No, how would you get this from the post?  The point was that the self reporting of cancer cures is neccesarily skewed to those who have affected a cure or some sort of 'healing" as the dead people, very sick people, are not reporting such opinions.  This selection bias skewes the sample very dramatically from the population you wish to study.




This is so obvious that I cant see why OC thinks its thread worthy? I was trying to get at his actual opinion on the matter.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14315341 - 04/19/11 01:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bviously you can't prove a negative. Unicorns MAY exist, but to imply that the two possibilities should be treated equally because one isn't impossible doesn't make sense to me.




If you use simple yes / no logic then I can see your problem. If instead you frame it in a slightly fuzzier fashion:

Tom believes in unicorns with a 98% level of certainty
I don't believe in unicorns with a 99% level of certainty
We should both admit that there remains some possibility that either of us could be correct.


However, there are definiteley alot more cases of cancer remission which get attributed to some kind of faith or prayer than there are reliable sightings of unicorns, which is a real shame because they are extremely beautiful and quite friendly too.


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Always Smi2le


Edited by GazzBut (04/19/11 01:26 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #14315353 - 04/19/11 01:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You simply misunderstand the limits of the placebo effect. There are absolutely no controlled studies that showed that one can cure oneself of cancer simply by the power of the mind. Please get your facts straight 'cause you sound silly.




So you can explain to us the definitive limits of the placebo effect? I think not, so perhaps your the one who sounds a little silly? How ironic.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14315860 - 04/19/11 07:01 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
I see no facts here. Just unproven belief.



I see no response here to the part of my post that included indisputable facts:

Many people pray for healing and subsequently die; only the ones who survive claim that God saved them. What about the ones who died?

Quote:

Why do most people normally have to come down on one side of the argument? why cant people just be open to both possiblities? I can say with a high degree of certainty that nobody on this forum knows whether prayer has the power to heal SOME people or not. But most people on here choose their favourite guess and then defend it to the hilt like a bunch of school kids in the playground and then pretend this passes for philisophical debate!!!!



Because God choosing to heal some people and ignoring others is no different than prayer being totally ineffective.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: NetDiver]
    #14316027 - 04/19/11 08:18 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

see no response here to the part of my post that included indisputable facts:

Many people pray for healing and subsequently die; only the ones who survive claim that God saved them. What about the ones who died?




Lets just cut to the chase: If you were to assign a percentage of probability to the likelihood that some people have been able to cure cancer through the power of their own faith what would it be?

Quote:

Because God choosing to heal some people and ignoring others is no different than prayer being totally ineffective.




Statistical Significance


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14316404 - 04/19/11 10:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Lets just cut to the chase: If you were to assign a percentage of probability to the likelihood that some people have been able to cure cancer through the power of their own faith what would it be?




I would say it approaches zero. Large-scale studies on prayer and survival rates tend to confirm this; i.e. no difference between prayer and non-prayer groups and/or religious vs. atheist groups.

In a similar bit of nonsense, what was popular with the spiritual-but-not-religious crowd, was visualization techniques. "Imagine your white blood cells are hungry sharks eating the evil cancer cells." Once again, no discernible effect, but the survivors will obviously swear by the technique.

As to placebo, it does work on perceived pain levels in some cases through the lowering of stress and the release of endorphins, but has no effect on serious or chronic disease.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14316424 - 04/19/11 10:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kid_Orgo said:
Obviously you can't prove a negative.




Obviously?  What does that even mean, proving a negative?  Are you claiming that one can prove a positive (whatever that is...)?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14316438 - 04/19/11 10:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Lets just cut to the chase: If you were to assign a percentage of probability to the likelihood that some people have been able to cure cancer through the power of their own faith what would it be?





It would be on the order of the probability that the sun orbits the earth, or that life is not made up of cells.  Insignificantly small probability that is effectively zero for any thing but the most philosophical of discussions.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: DieCommie]
    #14316465 - 04/19/11 10:22 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

See my new thread.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14316587 - 04/19/11 10:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
So you can explain to us the definitive limits of the placebo effect? I think not, so perhaps your the one who sounds a little silly? How ironic.




How ironic that you ask me a question to which you then reply? :lol:
Let's keep this easy: you claimed that through placebo one can heal oneself of cancer. Hence, the burden of proof rests upon you. What evidence do you have to show the positive effects of placebo on curing cancer? And please, no anecdotal evidence.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #14316693 - 04/19/11 11:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

And please, no anecdotal evidence.




But, but, but... what about Aunt Mildred and her crucifix? Can't we use that?


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14316815 - 04/19/11 11:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

She can shove it up her ass.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #14316862 - 04/19/11 11:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:blush:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14317376 - 04/19/11 01:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well, at least this way she'll have some satisfaction from her belief. :sun:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #14317394 - 04/19/11 01:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

haha...:smirk:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: Poid]
    #14317432 - 04/19/11 01:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Linda Blair FTW... :crazy:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14317508 - 04/19/11 01:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)



:whacker:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleKid_Orgo
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: DieCommie]
    #14318530 - 04/19/11 04:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Obviously?  What does that even mean, proving a negative?  Are you claiming that one can prove a positive (whatever that is...)?




The idea is that even one counter example disproves a negative statement (X does not exist), and the possibility of such counter-examples can never be eliminated (you can't simultaneously observe all of history and reality for X).

Some shroomerites better versed in philosophy could probably help you out. I believe it is taken as a foundation of logic that this is true, but I'm sure, again, people better versed in philosophy could argue with it.

:shrug:

Came across this looking for a link to explain this concisely. It's James Randi ranting on the topic a little.



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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14319586 - 04/19/11 08:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

OC started the thread, he isn't questioning someone elses claims in a thread that they started. He made the claims! It is up to him to defend what he says. Saying he can't prove a negative is a cop out.

From the comments under your video
Quote:

gigsdad said:

Wow... so we have to roam through the trenches of insanity to cling to our notions of what we can and cannot prove? Please. Any logician will tell you that proving a negative is the same as proving a positive. In fact, every time you prove a positive, you prove countless negatives.




Haha,




Randi is a conman extrodinaire.



Edited by falcon (04/19/11 08:53 PM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: falcon]
    #14321439 - 04/20/11 03:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I wish you could negatively rate posts...


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14321544 - 04/20/11 04:19 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I would say it approaches zero.




Lets face it, you really mean zero dont you! This is the whole thrust of my arguement...none of us know either way  but some of us are assigning definite probablities and believing our guesses as fact.



Quote:

In a similar bit of nonsense




This is the problem, you have made your mind up before you even start to look at the facts. You do see that dont you OC?

Quote:

. "Imagine your white blood cells are hungry sharks eating the evil cancer cells." Once again, no discernible effect, but the survivors will obviously swear by the technique.





You do not have enough information at your disposal to determine for sure whether this technique is successful in SOME cases.

Quote:

As to placebo, it does work on perceived pain levels in some cases through the lowering of stress and the release of endorphins, but has no effect on serious or chronic disease.




Please provide me with sources. Unsubstantiated claims masquerading as fact are tedious, as you yourself have pointed out on many occasions.


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Always Smi2le


Edited by GazzBut (04/20/11 04:20 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: DieCommie]
    #14321548 - 04/20/11 04:22 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


It would be on the order of the probability that the sun orbits the earth, or that life is not made up of cells.  Insignificantly small probability that is effectively zero for any thing but the most philosophical of discussions.




Fair enough. So how do you explain the many cases of spontaneous remission where the person attributes the cure to their faith or third party prayer etc?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #14321559 - 04/20/11 04:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

How ironic that you ask me a question to which you then reply? :lol:




I asked whether you could definitively prove the limits of the placebo effect, excuse my presumption that you couldnt. Please proceeed to dazzle me with this information that is as yet unknown to the rest of the scientific community.

Quote:

Let's keep this easy: you claimed that through placebo one can heal oneself of cancer.




Did I really? Perhaps you need to reread this thread.

Quote:

What evidence do you have to show the positive effects of placebo on curing cancer? And please, no anecdotal evidence




I do not claim to have the evidence, never have done. My whole point is that instead of choosing one of the options I remain open to both because I am aware that I do not have enough information at my dispoal to "prove" it either way...and nor do you bud, simple as that.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14321562 - 04/20/11 04:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

But, but, but... what about Aunt Mildred and her crucifix? Can't we use that?




But but but, there is no evidence to disprove my BELIEF so I can puff my ego by trying to appear clever without realising that I am the polar opposite of those I mock, dig?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14321589 - 04/20/11 05:06 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

But, but, but... what about Aunt Mildred and her crucifix? Can't we use that?




But but but, there is no evidence to disprove my BELIEF so I can puff my ego by trying to appear clever without realising that I am the polar opposite of those I mock, dig?




I presume you mean polar opposite as in being of a contrary position but having an equal magnitude of foolishness/fallacy underlying the belief?

If so, I think this is not true.  The notion that prayer heals cancer or whatnot has no decent evidence to suggest it might be possible, let alone probable, and so the belief in such is unsupported, silly, wrong.  This is true regardless of the merits of the claim in the abstract, as we can be confident that the person has no justification to believe what they believe.


Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:


It would be on the order of the probability that the sun orbits the earth, or that life is not made up of cells.  Insignificantly small probability that is effectively zero for any thing but the most philosophical of discussions.




Fair enough. So how do you explain the many cases of spontaneous remission where the person attributes the cure to their faith or third party prayer etc?




For myself, I don't.  I mean it is quite certainly the case that hidden variables are at play, but the charecteristics of these qualities are not neccesary to know to be able to observe that there is nothing particularly unusual in a tumor spontaneously dissapearing.  Our immune system does this sort of thing all the time, especially with strange crap like messed-up cells.

As the conclusion that belief in healing through prayer is unwarranted and the practice is not worthy of relying upon by any rational calculus does not have any obvious dependance on the mechnism, nature, of spontaneous remission, the question is simply unrelated and unnecessary.

Quote:

GazzBut said:


Quote:

What evidence do you have to show the positive effects of placebo on curing cancer? And please, no anecdotal evidence




I do not claim to have the evidence, never have done. My whole point is that instead of choosing one of the options I remain open to both because I am aware that I do not have enough information at my dispoal to "prove" it either way...and nor do you bud, simple as that.




You do not have to take a position on the merits, justified or not, to know and correctly determine the belief is bullshit.  Prayer is a speculative treatment without any decent evidence for its usefulness, and hence it is something that would be a faulty belief if someone claimed some usefulness. 

You seem to suggest that those considering the belief to be unwarranted have neccesarily taken a position on the possibility of prayer being efficacious in some manner and decided it is an impossibility, where this is not required to logically insist the practice unworthy of value, suggestion as treatment.


(btw, others may have gotten you mixed up with Cannashroom: I started to.  He claimed the placebo effect could explain, justify, prayer as a treatment that has value for achieving cancer remission.  I join others in asking him to back up this claim.  It seems unlikely to me).


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14321717 - 04/20/11 06:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So you can explain to us the definitive limits of the placebo effect? I think not

I think so.

The placebo effect has never restored an amputation. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: Diploid]
    #14321764 - 04/20/11 07:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Crikey o riley! how the fuck does that statement definitively define the limits of the placebo effect?? Please try and think before posting dude..ffs.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14321805 - 04/20/11 07:40 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Crikey o riley!




:rofl2:
:rofl2:
:rofl2:
:rofl2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14321812 - 04/20/11 07:43 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:


It would be on the order of the probability that the sun orbits the earth, or that life is not made up of cells.  Insignificantly small probability that is effectively zero for any thing but the most philosophical of discussions.




Fair enough. So how do you explain the many cases of spontaneous remission where the person attributes the cure to their faith or third party prayer etc?




Off hand I would explain it the same way I would explain somebody who thinks the sun orbits the earth or that life isnt made of cells - a combination of ignorance and confirmation bias.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14321817 - 04/20/11 07:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

how the fuck does that statement definitively define the limits of the placebo effect?

It shows that the placebo effect is limited to things that are amenable to psychological state and can't cure "real" diseases or conditions. It can improve the outlook of conditions mediated by stress, for example. Remove the stress (by the feeling of well-being given by a placebo) and the condition improves. But it can't cure cancer (or amputations).

That's what you asked for: the limits of the placebo effect. If that's not what you meant to write, take a writing class and write it again.

I remain open to both because I am aware that I do not have enough information at my dispoal to "prove" it either way

Do you have enough information at your disposal to "prove" whether the Tooth Fairy exists? Are you therefore open to the possibility that she lives in a nice condo on Venus?

Some things are plausible and worthy of the benefit of the doubt. Others, like prayer healing, are not. Especially since the preponderance of studies show prayer is no more effective than non-prayer at curing cancer (or amputations).

It is absurd to believe that squinting and talking to the air while holding up your hands could possibly have any effect on cancer.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14321820 - 04/20/11 07:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Crikey o riley! how the fuck does that statement definitively define the limits of the placebo effect?? Please try and think before posting dude..ffs.




So, in your opinion, what would be an accurate limitation of placebo?

Quote:

I asked whether you could definitively prove the limits of the placebo effect, excuse my presumption that you couldnt. Please proceeed to dazzle me with this information that is as yet unknown to the rest of the scientific community.




I wonder what words would actually make you understand that I never claimed I knew the limits of placebo. However, science has never discovered that placebo can heal cancer. That's all that is relevant imo.

Quote:

Did I really? Perhaps you need to reread this thread.




I'll take your word.

Quote:

I do not claim to have the evidence, never have done. My whole point is that instead of choosing one of the options I remain open to both because I am aware that I do not have enough information at my dispoal to "prove" it either way




Good for you. I'm also open to mocking stupid beliefs that haven't been sustained by reality. I'm sorry if my enlightenment is butt-rashing you.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #14322244 - 04/20/11 10:03 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

OK. Who forgot to fill out the form?



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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14322569 - 04/20/11 11:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
OK. Who forgot to fill out the form?


Gazzbutthurt. :yesnod:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: Poid]
    #14326125 - 04/21/11 02:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

lol...well thats one way to feel like you have won an arguement I spose.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: Diploid]
    #14326135 - 04/21/11 02:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It shows that the placebo effect is limited to things that are amenable to psychological state and can't cure "real" diseases or conditions




No it doesnt.

Quote:


Do you have enough information at your disposal to "prove" whether the Tooth Fairy exists?




Not 100% conclusively. My best guess is 99.9% that she doesnt but then again who knows whether archetypes do in fact have some form of existence? who knows what existence really is? Do you have enough information to prove 100% conclusively that you exist?

Quote:


Some things are plausible and worthy of the benefit of the doubt. Others, like prayer healing, are not.




Your welcome to your opinion but you should be aware that this is only an opinion and we do not have enough hard evidence yet to pretend otherwise.

Quote:

It is absurd to believe that squinting and talking to the air while holding up your hands could possibly have any effect on cancer.




I think you may need to try a new prayer technique mate, no wonder you dont think it works :smile:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #14326154 - 04/21/11 02:22 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


So, in your opinion, what would be an accurate limitation of placebo?




No idea. I dont even know if the placebo effect or prayer truly work to cure anything. I have a strong suspiscion that we have not even come close to understanding the full nature of mind / consciousness and its relation to the body though so I remain open.

Quote:

I wonder what words would actually make you understand that I never claimed I knew the limits of placebo.




You said:

Quote:

You simply misunderstand the limits of the placebo effect.




If you can safely say somebody misunderstands the limits of the placebo effect surely the implication is that you understand the limits?

Quote:

I'm sorry if my enlightenment is butt-rashing you.




At least you have a keen sense of humour!


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14326183 - 04/21/11 02:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I think you may need to try a new prayer technique mate, no wonder you dont think it works




How quaint. The no True Scotsman Fallacy.

The people who participated in the failed prayer studies were very religious people who had been studying the Bible attending church and praying for years. If they don't know how to truly pray, then who would?

MM claimed he knew how to pray and got a positive result - one time. The next time, not so positive. The causal link there appears extremely tenuous.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14326205 - 04/21/11 02:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Extremely tenuous maybe but that doesnt means its not there does it :smile:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14326208 - 04/21/11 02:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Take the Last Train to Yawnsville


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut]
    #14326584 - 04/21/11 06:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

you should be aware that this is only an opinion

My belief that the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist is only an opinion? Damn. I guess you got me there. :shrug:

I think you may need to try a new prayer technique mate, no wonder you dont think it works

You mean I'm not squinting hard enough? OK, I'll work on that.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: GazzBut] * 1
    #14327154 - 04/21/11 10:40 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Extremely tenuous maybe but that doesnt means its not there does it :smile:



Yeah, it does mean that, unless you irrationally believe it's there because it makes you feel good.

None of us want to feel like we're ultimately on our own, but instead of turning to all-powerful imaginary friends, we should try to help each other in concrete and practical ways. Rather than praying for somebody who's sick, maybe bring them food, take care of their house, help with medical bills, etc. Do something guaranteed to help.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: NetDiver]
    #14327767 - 04/21/11 01:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

But but that requires actual effort.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #14327851 - 04/21/11 01:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Squinting hard enough to move God to action is not easy.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Cancer survivors, prayer and miracles [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #14329721 - 04/21/11 08:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
But but that requires actual effort.




I've called people's bluff when they say "Let me know if there's anything I can do to help".  It's funny to see them back off immediately or worse ask for money to give "help".


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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