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Invisiblecyantific
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: anonjon]
    #14279702 - 04/12/11 07:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

thats always been my understanding ... a few years ago it was all about the nitrogen boosting additives ... nowadays it seems almost obsolete unless its coupled with some kind of microbial benefit ...

i always use coffee water in my grains and even the simmered grinds ( i just add a cup of fresh to about 12 quarts water with popcorn and simmer ) having it in the spawn seems like enough for me ... safer to have it predigested before spawning to coir ...

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OfflineMicroppose
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: cyantific]
    #14279721 - 04/12/11 07:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Worm castings have plenty of nutrients in them but not many of which are especially useful to fungi except for the nitrogen. High in nitrogen and phosphorous, traces of potassium (NPK). All things of which are great for those oh so beloved pepper plants. However adds no more organic material than a coffee supplementation. And comparable nitrogen content. There are cheaper supplements that would do a grow better.

Milk does the body good.

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OfflineMicroppose
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: cyantific]
    #14279732 - 04/12/11 07:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

cyantific said:
a few years ago it was all about the nitrogen boosting additives ... nowadays it seems almost obsolete unless its coupled with some kind of microbial benefit ...





It's okay for you to 'flip flop' :wetself:
Jk, fucking with ya...

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Microppose]
    #14279959 - 04/12/11 07:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Actually, mushroom mycelium benefits from a nutrient boost during colonization. By 'benefit' I don't mean faster colonization, but rather thicker and more robust mycelium. However, when fruiting time comes, a less nutritious substrate will produce more primordia.  Spent coffee grinds fits this bill perfectly, being mostly digested during colonization, leaving the substrate less nutritious at fruiting.
RR


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Offlinewally_world
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Microppose]
    #14280363 - 04/12/11 08:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Azurascender said:
But the benefits of coir out weigh poo IMO, like the ease of preparation, the contam resistance and uuh, the lack of offensive odor...




Contam resistance should not be an issue with sterilization. However, with pasteurization, it is a good idea to have some manure in the mix for the actinomycetes do help with contam resistance in PASTEURIZED substrates (and they help by consuming competitor microbes of fungi). With sterilized substrates, you kill the actinomycetes, as well.

Also, properly aged manure is what you are going for and has ZERO hint of manure smell. PROPERLY aged manure smells very earthy, which to me is a pleasant smell.



Quote:


Hell you dont even have to really pasterize poo, and it still works-Seen some that had grass growin out of it and it still had fruits.




You most certainly do need to pasteurize manure in laboratory conditions or you WILL get contams. Mushrooms grow off manure in the wild b/c there are millions of other microbes that sustain the system of natural checks and balances, allowing for the mushrooms growth.

Quote:

cyantific said:
as for sterilized substrates no , i havent tried it yet and honestly have no desire to ... the results i get are always optimal ... i definitely dont see the point of going through the extra hassle of flowhood spawning and rigorously sterile shelving techniques just to get what may or may not be a %5 larger yield in production ... certainly not on a site populated by so many inexperienced cultivators looking to get started in the field ...




I've tried both methods and honestly got greater flushes with pasteurized substrates. However, I did get a 15% contam rate. Not bad, but with sterilized substrates I get a 0% contam rate. This for me, is preferable for the obvious reasons... As well as the whole substrate preparation process (for sterilization) is cleaner and a lot less of a hassle when doing bulk grows. No giant soaked-ass pillow cases and wet garage floors. With PC'ing myco-bags, it's just mix, load, PC, cool, inoculate, done.

And, if you choose LC to inoculate your bags, you can get by w/o a flowhood.
This, for me, is better, but I understand why ppl would want to pasteurize as well
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

ukshroomer said:
A mix of several ingredients provides the perfect sub for me.




This is correct.  Mixing several good substrates together is usually superior to any one of them individually.
RR




AMEN!


Quote:

Azurascender said:
Worm castings have plenty of nutrients in them but not many of which are especially useful to fungi except for the nitrogen. High in nitrogen and phosphorous, traces of potassium (NPK). All things of which are great for those oh so beloved pepper plants. However adds no more organic material than a coffee supplementation. And comparable nitrogen content. There are cheaper supplements that would do a grow better.

Milk does the body good.




WC's do have a good supply of beneficial microbes, but that only matters w/ pasteurization. Also, manure supplies sufficient microbes w/o needing help from WC's. Calcium? Gypsum covers that.

And, to top it all off, WC's are high in magnesium as well, which can do harm to our mushrooms in high enough levels.

So yeah, WC's aren't really worth their high price for this hobby.



Personally, I go for ease of use and zero contams. So, sterilizing bags of a mix of manure/coir/gypsum does all that I look for: large flushes, zero contams, minimal substrate prep messes, and simplicity.

However, my best flushes DID come from the same mix of manure/coir/gypsum but pasteurized. HOWEVER, some of the bags did contam.

Bottom line is if that most people tend to focus too much on substrate rather than environment for their results. If you're just starting, decide your method (brf cake, casing, bags), then find a simple mix that someone else had success with (by searching grow logs and pics forums), then put 4x the energy you used for finding your substrate into researching the best environmental specifications for your method of growing.

Environmental factors being temps, lighting (type and schedule), and fresh air exchange and/or gas exchange, among other things...


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Invisiblecyantific
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Microppose]
    #14280467 - 04/12/11 09:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Azurascender said:
Quote:

cyantific said:
a few years ago it was all about the nitrogen boosting additives ... nowadays it seems almost obsolete unless its coupled with some kind of microbial benefit ...





It's okay for you to 'flip flop' :wetself:
Jk, fucking with ya...




lol naw more a statement of uncertain-ess than anything else ... im still in the dark as to how much nitrogen really benefits mycelium in substrates as opposed to how much microbes do and where the benefits really stand ...

of the latter it seems cubensis doesn't really benefit from them , this is a new one dropped on me by RR so im even more confounded ... i do know they help in a contamination aspect , eating contaminate spores before they can germinate ... and it is also my understanding they digest unwanted material like lignins and cellulose making the substrate easier to digest ... so i guess that has to count for something ... but to what degree , i have no idea !  :nerd:

btw ^^ thats one hell of a post WW lol

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OfflineMicroppose
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: wally_world]
    #14280974 - 04/12/11 10:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Wally_World said:
"Contam resistance should not be an issue with sterilization. However, with pasteurization, it is a good idea to have some manure in the mix for the actinomycetes do help with contam resistance in PASTEURIZED substrates"

It's not the actinomycetes that help coir stay so contaminant resistant, and whether you sterilize or pasteurize coir, it remains more contaminant resistant than any poo substrate. With additives, coir loses that ability to a degree, as those additives don't have the same resilience as coir, and leaves it more vulnerable.

Wally_World said:
"WC's do have a good supply of beneficial microbes, but that only matters w/ pasteurization. Also, manure supplies sufficient microbes w/o needing help from WC's."

What beneficial microbes do manure or worm castings offer that improves fruiting ability? Everyone knows that in living substrates, actinomycetes assist in the selectivity of the substrate. I was definitely not vouching for worm castings, as I've stated their slight benefits don't outweigh the ungodly cost.

Cyantific said:
"lol naw more a statement of uncertain-ess than anything else ... im still in the dark as to how much nitrogen really benefits mycelium in substrates as opposed to how much microbes do and where the benefits really stand ...
of the latter it seems cubensis doesn't really benefit from them , this is a new one dropped on me by RR so im even more confounded ... i do know they help in a contamination aspect , eating contaminate spores before they can germinate ... and it is also my understanding they digest unwanted material like lignins and cellulose making the substrate easier to digest ... so i guess that has to count for something ... but to what degree , i have no idea !"

Nitrogen has been proven to benefit a lot of edibles during both vegetative and fruiting stages, but for cubensis there is still no definitive proof that it has a beneficial or detrimental effect. As far as beneficial microbes breaking down lignins and cellulose, I don't see how they could do much better than when you pasteurize or sterilize your substrate. When you heat a substrate it simplifies it for your mycelium making it easier to consume. Yes, an RR SEMI quote, "just like in humans, cooking food makes it more readily available to us and helps us to use it more efficiently as a nutrient."

Please feel free to reiterate as you see fit RR, I could not find the exact thread of origination.

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OfflineMicroppose
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Microppose]
    #14281170 - 04/12/11 10:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Wally_World said:
"Contam resistance should not be an issue with sterilization. However, with pasteurization, it is a good idea to have some manure in the mix for the actinomycetes."

This is the thing I meant to make a point about, but my drunk ass didn't see it before. With the exception of coir, sterilization actually makes your substrate MORE vulnerable to a contaminant takeover over pasteurizatiuon as it kills your beneficial microbes, aka actinomycetes. I don't believe coir is more or less vulnerable to contamination, because I have done both with equal results, and coir isn't known to have active beneficial microbials in it before use anyways.

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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Microppose]
    #14282425 - 04/13/11 06:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Azurascender said: As far as beneficial microbes breaking down lignins and cellulose, I don't see how they could do much better than when you pasteurize or sterilize your substrate. When you heat a substrate it simplifies it for your mycelium making it easier to consume. Yes, an RR SEMI quote, "just like in humans, cooking food makes it more readily available to us and helps us to use it more efficiently as a nutrient."





You can cook your food all you want but without the microbes in your belly you would starve to death. It doesn't just equal out like that.

"beneficial microorganisms are those that can fix atmospheric nitrogen, decompose organic wastes and residues, detoxify pesticides, suppress plant diseases and soil-borne pathogens, enhance nutrient cycling, and produce bioactive compounds such as vitamins, hormones and enzymes "

Beneficial and Effective Micro-Organisms for a Sustainable Agriculture and Development


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:

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OfflineMicroppose
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: anonjon]
    #14284376 - 04/13/11 02:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, as humans we are dependent on microbes in our tummy to break down food. But cubensis mushrooms don't need microbes to assimilate the same action. They THEMSELVES are primary decomposers and are fully capable of preparing and consuming their own food without the assistance of another party.

EDIT: My APE tub is knotting, I'm excited as tits.

Edited by Microppose (04/13/11 03:00 PM)

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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Microppose]
    #14285847 - 04/13/11 06:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

We're talking about an organism that's evolved to live in the feces of ruminants. How can u poopoo the value of the symbiosis between the fungus and the gut flora of the animal.

I have no doubt in the ability of the fungus to break down cellulose and lignins. I'm saying the microbes make it more efficient.

It's not like I'm advancing a wild theory. There are industrial growers breeding newer and better strains of EM's  (effective micro-organisms) to improve efficiency right now.

You're pissing in the wind my friend. I don't know why.


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:

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OfflineMicroppose
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: anonjon]
    #14285907 - 04/13/11 07:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Would it be wind pissery to state that coir and poo individually generally yield the same results? And would it be wind pissery to also state that one has beneficial microbes and one does not? I think not friend, I do think not.

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OfflineMicroppose
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Microppose]
    #14285913 - 04/13/11 07:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

To be clear, we're talking about the cultivation of cubensis mushrooms.

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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Microppose]
    #14286220 - 04/13/11 07:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'll calculate the biological efficiency of both and get back to you.


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:

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OfflineMicroppose
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: anonjon]
    #14286484 - 04/13/11 08:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How can you calculate the bio-efficiency?

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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Microppose]
    #14286689 - 04/13/11 09:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

dry mass of mushroom yield versus dry mass of ingredients.

It's not a simple matter by any means. I'm still working on just achieving consistent results at the moment. I'm serious tho, I am going to get it done one day.


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:

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OfflineMicroppose
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: anonjon]
    #14286717 - 04/13/11 09:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You would have to do that on an extremely large scale with an isolated strain to get definitive answers. Haha but even if you achieve no definitive results, you'll still have a shit ton of mushrooms eh?

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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Microppose]
    #14286747 - 04/13/11 09:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i am aware..


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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:

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OfflineMicroppose
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: anonjon]
    #14287535 - 04/13/11 11:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Some knotting pics of the APE tub. Growing much faster than my B+ tubs, which aren't even knotting yet...
I hope I don't get too many mongoloid retards on the first flush, but hey, I most likely will. Mutants are fun to look at anyhow.




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OfflineMicroppose
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Microppose]
    #14307532 - 04/17/11 04:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Haha the gayest thing just happened to me... I was in the middle of making dinner and misting/fanning and left my tub lid off of the APEs. My fucking cat decided to use it as a cat box. It's in solitary confinement. Now I only have three tubs and I am pissed to say the least. Only B+ now...

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