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Offline4896744
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The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous
    #14306723 - 04/17/11 02:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The idea of free will is nonsensical because it would require input beyond that of the structure of your brain caused by DNA and past experiences.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
    #14306834 - 04/17/11 02:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Not really.  There is such a thing as emergence.  Biology and experience come together to create an emergent structure called the self.  The self can be subject to multiple influences and impulses with contradictory choices.  For example, you may crave a piece of chocolate cake, but also be worrying about your weight.  You can either indulge in your immediate desire for the cake, or commit to your diet and abstain.  That is what's called a choice(and I'd argue that the latter is more of a choice than the former).  When our desires do not conflict and we have a clear preference, then there isn't really any will involved.  But when we are faced with a choice between fulfilling one desire or another, then we have to use our willpower, particularly when it comes to choosing between instant gratification(cake) or long-term goals(weight loss).  The very fact that we are able to set long-term goals and fulfill them is all the proof we need of the existence of will(whether you call it "free" or not is little more than a game of semantics).

QED


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Silversoul] * 2
    #14306891 - 04/17/11 02:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

whether you call it "free" or not is little more than a game of semantics




That sounds like a bold claim.  Whether or not it is 'free' is the heart of the issue.  Virtually nobody disputes the existence of will.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
    #14306929 - 04/17/11 03:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
The idea of free will is nonsensical because it would require input beyond that of the structure of your brain caused by DNA and past experiences.




That makes sense if you believe that consciousness can be reduced to an effect of its basic constitutes.  A reductionist view with bottom up causality is an understandable position to hold, as such views have consistently grown and encroached on more holistic or top down causation views.  But, it still remains an assumption and it would be conjecture to proclaim that all emergent properties can be described with respect to their basic constituents alone, or that no strong emergent properties exist.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: DieCommie]
    #14306971 - 04/17/11 03:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

whether you call it "free" or not is little more than a game of semantics




That sounds like a bold claim.  Whether or not it is 'free' is the heart of the issue.  Virtually nobody disputes the existence of will.



If there is will, and it can overcome impulse, then there is choice.  To me, that is enough to consider it "free."  Others demand some greater, more transcendent definition of freedom which I find to be a pointless exercise.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Silversoul]
    #14306996 - 04/17/11 03:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If there is will, and it can overcome impulse, then there is choice.  To me, that is enough to consider it "free."  Others demand some greater, more transcendent definition of freedom which I find to be a pointless exercise.




Sure, but consider your premise is of the form "If A and B then C" not "If A then B then C".  'A' alone is not sufficient for free will, free will requires A and B.  That is, you can define will such that it cannot overcome impulse and that would be 'unfree' will.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
    #14307109 - 04/17/11 03:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
The idea of free will is nonsensical because it would require input beyond that of the structure of your brain caused by DNA and past experiences.



The idea of determinism is equally nonsensical, because the Universe itself is apparently without a first cause.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: NetDiver]
    #14307116 - 04/17/11 03:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

But how is that relevant?  A lack of determinism does not imply free will.  Lack of determinism is necessary but not sufficient for free will.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: DieCommie]
    #14307133 - 04/17/11 03:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

If there is will, and it can overcome impulse, then there is choice.  To me, that is enough to consider it "free."  Others demand some greater, more transcendent definition of freedom which I find to be a pointless exercise.




Sure, but consider your premise is of the form "If A and B then C" not "If A then B then C".  'A' alone is not sufficient for free will, free will requires A and B.  That is, you can define will such that it cannot overcome impulse and that would be 'unfree' will.



That doesn't make sense.  How can there be will and have it not be capable of overcoming impulse?  That seems pretty axiomatic to the very concept of will.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Silversoul]
    #14307154 - 04/17/11 03:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well, you prefaced it that way - not me.  :smile:

I can certainly fathom will which cannot overcome impulse.  Will has more to do with intent than capability.  Free will is where capability comes into play.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: DieCommie]
    #14307502 - 04/17/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
But how is that relevant?  A lack of determinism does not imply free will.  Lack of determinism is necessary but not sufficient for free will.



I agree with that, I was just saying that the reasons OP provided didn't really qualify free-will as nonsensical. The fact that our experiences are composed of chemicals/DNA/whatnot isn't really adequate for rejecting free-will, which isn't really well defined in the first place.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Silversoul]
    #14307505 - 04/17/11 04:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Come one SS, I have covered this many, many times already.

Please tell at what point Free Will comes in:

atom
molecule
compound
collection of compounds (object)
single-celled critter
multi-celled critter
fish
amphibian
mammal
primate
human


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14307515 - 04/17/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

At what point does the atom come in?

Okay, let's go with subatomic particles- protons, electrons, quarks.

At what point do those come in?

Maybe it's free-will all the way down. :shrug:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: NetDiver]
    #14307524 - 04/17/11 04:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

As every hydrogen atom is indistinguishable from every other, that rules out FW at the atomic level.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14307560 - 04/17/11 04:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well, the question of whether or not we have free-will is a dualist question to begin with, because it implies an agent somehow separate from the rest of the system.

It still seems to us like we have the ability to make decisions, though, and we have to hold people accountable for their actions. :shrug:


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OfflineSimms
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
    #14307565 - 04/17/11 04:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
The idea of free will is nonsensical because it would require input beyond that of the structure of your brain caused by DNA and past experiences.




And that particular thought was generated through your body reactions, biologic robotics. And this one was as well. And this one. We will never know, because knowing is determined, an illusion. Everything we will ever think and achieve is an illusion, as we are just a sequence of reactions.

I thought, then I suddenly stopped the process of thought, and saw random images running in my mind, my eyes weren't even closed. These images are always running and are completely random, everybody has these. And you can not control them. This is your subconcious. ANd you don't have control over subconcious, as control itself is conciousness, which is controlled by subconcious, therefore we don't have any control at all, and do we even have conciousness? Its all an illusion, including this thought, which is a paradox, which is also an illusion, as we are inside an illusion. World is a paradox.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14307624 - 04/17/11 05:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Come one SS, I have covered this many, many times already.

Please tell at what point Free Will comes in:

atom
molecule
compound
collection of compounds (object)
single-celled critter
multi-celled critter
fish
amphibian
mammal
primate
human




If it were to come in, it would be somewhere inbetween compounds/object and multi-celled critter.  There is no theory we can use to derive a multi-celled critter from a collection of compounds.  Until there is, this will always be a realm in which free will could exist.


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Offlinemeatcakeman
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14307636 - 04/17/11 05:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
As every hydrogen atom is indistinguishable from every other, that rules out FW at the atomic level.




LOL

you obviously have not taken chemistry before.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14307667 - 04/17/11 05:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Though indistinguishability is a property generally applied towards elementary particles, it can apply to composite particles as well.  All hydrogen atoms are the same in that they all have the same quantum states they can occupy.  They, like black holes, do not have hairdos.


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Offlinemeatcakeman
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: DieCommie]
    #14307685 - 04/17/11 05:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Though indistinguishability is a property generally applied towards elementary particles, it can apply to composite particles as well.  All hydrogen atoms are the same in that they all have the same quantum states they can occupy.  They, like black holes, do not have hairdos.




yes, but, as i assume you know, not all isotopes of hydrogen act the same, and neither do their subatomic particles. imo, they are all distinguishable in some way or another.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14307716 - 04/17/11 05:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, all subatomic particles act the same.  This is a key component of the indistinguishably of elementary particles, and both Bose and Dirac statistics are very much dependent on this idea.  It is a fundamental concept in the statistical mechanics of elementary particles.


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14307729 - 04/17/11 05:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yay! Again you miss the point. :cheer: Must be going for the record.

All hydrogen atoms with the same number of neutrons are indistinguishable. But you already knew that. :rolleyes:


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OfflineSimms
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: DieCommie]
    #14307735 - 04/17/11 05:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Come one SS, I have covered this many, many times already.

Please tell at what point Free Will comes in:

atom
molecule
compound
collection of compounds (object)
single-celled critter
multi-celled critter
fish
amphibian
mammal
primate
human




If it were to come in, it would be somewhere inbetween compounds/object and multi-celled critter.  There is no theory we can use to derive a multi-celled critter from a collection of compounds.  Until there is, this will always be a realm in which free will could exist.




Yes there is. Have you ever done programming and a series of "if"-s? "Free will" is just a complex series of "if"-s. A single celled lifeform has life functions: if(this) then function(do that) -- this can be seen even in most bugs, who are multi-celled organisms, whose eyes search light for example, which is derived from more primitive functions between chemical compounds.


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Edited by Simms (04/17/11 05:25 PM)


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Offlinemeatcakeman
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: DieCommie]
    #14307740 - 04/17/11 05:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Yes, all subatomic particles act the same.  This is a key component of the indistinguishably of elementary particles, and both Bose and Dirac statistics are very much dependent on this idea.  It is a fundamental concept in the statistical mechanics of elementary particles.




yes, all subatomic particles act the same essentially because they have the same pertaining properties. but, in a collective whole, they can act very differently, comparatively speaking, according to their overall make, i.e. isotope. take a look at nuclear spin. different isotopes have differing nuclear spins, either because of an oddball neutron or what have you. i'm sure you get where i'm trying to go with this.


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Offlinemeatcakeman
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14307751 - 04/17/11 05:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Yay! Again you miss the point. :cheer: Must be going for the record.

All hydrogen atoms with the same number of neutrons are indistinguishable. But you already knew that. :rolleyes:




ahhhh, but you didn't say that originally. i'm glad you can pick up on your mistakes and rectify them quickly. you might be an ignorant tard, but at least you're a fast learner. :thumbup:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14307870 - 04/17/11 05:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This thread was not intended to be a chemistry lesson, so I simplify some things.


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Offlinemeatcakeman
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14307874 - 04/17/11 05:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
This thread was not intended to be a chemistry lesson, so I simplify some things.




well, i'm big on details, so i complicate things. my bad.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: DieCommie]
    #14308001 - 04/17/11 06:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

iThink said:
The idea of free will is nonsensical because it would require input beyond that of the structure of your brain caused by DNA and past experiences.




That makes sense if you believe that consciousness can be reduced to an effect of its basic constitutes.  A reductionist view with bottom up causality is an understandable position to hold, as such views have consistently grown and encroached on more holistic or top down causation views.  But, it still remains an assumption and it would be conjecture to proclaim that all emergent properties can be described with respect to their basic constituents alone, or that no strong emergent properties exist.




I agree that this is still conjecture, however I believe the use of Occam's Razor shows that this is one of the more likely if not most likely possibilities.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744] * 1
    #14308197 - 04/17/11 06:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How are you defining "free will"? Do you not consider our decision-making processes to be examples of free will in action?


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Poid]
    #14308429 - 04/17/11 07:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

  • What do you mean by free will exactly?
  • Aren't most of you trying to use objective reasoning to quantify a subjective experience?  Would that not be like saying sadness ends here and happiness begins?  There is no definite start and finish to a subjective construct IMO, only an infinite amount of degrees.
  • Wouldn't it make more sense for you ask yourself?  Either you are experiencing free will or your not.  Like I said, its probably subjective, so you should know.


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OfflineSynapses-R-Us
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
    #14309776 - 04/17/11 11:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Not really.  There is such a thing as emergence.  Biology and experience come together to create an emergent structure called the self.  The self can be subject to multiple influences and impulses with contradictory choices.  For example, you may crave a piece of chocolate cake, but also be worrying about your weight.  You can either indulge in your immediate desire for the cake, or commit to your diet and abstain.  That is what's called a choice(and I'd argue that the latter is more of a choice than the former).  When our desires do not conflict and we have a clear preference, then there isn't really any will involved.  But when we are faced with a choice between fulfilling one desire or another, then we have to use our willpower, particularly when it comes to choosing between instant gratification(cake) or long-term goals(weight loss).  The very fact that we are able to set long-term goals and fulfill them is all the proof we need of the existence of will(whether you call it "free" or not is little more than a game of semantics).

QED



Quote:

iThink said:
The idea of free will is nonsensical because it would require input beyond that of the structure of your brain caused by DNA and past experiences.




I absolutely agree. There is a very very big difference between being able to TRULY pick one out of three options (simplifying it) and, based off of past experience, brain structure, current chemical levels, etc. having this reaction cause this reaction cause this reaction cause this reaction cause this reaction cause this reaction cause this reaction cause this reaction cause this reaction cause this reaction cause this reaction cause this reaction cause this reaction which ultimately lands on one of the three. Just because the process is extremely complex and difficult to determine does NOT make it random (by the definition "lacking any definite plan or prearranged order; haphazard") If anyone has any conflicting proof please state it I'd like to know


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"Every individual is at once the beneficiary and the victim of the linguistic tradition into which he has been born - the beneficiary inasmuch as language gives access to the accumulated records of other people's experience, the victim in so far as it confirms him in the belief that reduced awareness is the only awareness and as it bedevils his sense of reality, so that he is all too apt to take his concepts for data, his words for actual things."


Edited by Synapses-R-Us (04/17/11 11:57 PM)


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OfflineSynapses-R-Us
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Poid]
    #14309816 - 04/18/11 12:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
How are you defining "free will"? Do you not consider our decision-making processes to be examples of free will in action?




I don't. because there are individual steps to the process with each step defining the next


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"Every individual is at once the beneficiary and the victim of the linguistic tradition into which he has been born - the beneficiary inasmuch as language gives access to the accumulated records of other people's experience, the victim in so far as it confirms him in the belief that reduced awareness is the only awareness and as it bedevils his sense of reality, so that he is all too apt to take his concepts for data, his words for actual things."


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: MidRange]
    #14309832 - 04/18/11 12:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

there is will, just not free as we think of it. there is no seperate choice centre which is not dependant on other variables and stimuli. we tend to think analogically as if there really was a unified self centre when really it is just an interpretation, a simplification of what is really going on. everything is happening in a complex concert which could never be fully conceptualized so we simplify it and say i made a decision , when really a decision was made by countless variables. just dont adopt the belief that you have no choice because you do its just that you are not what you believe yourself to be. thats not spiritual or anything the self is just an antiquated idea which will soon be a thing of the past just like the belief in the supernatural.


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OfflineSynapses-R-Us
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Synapses-R-Us]
    #14309866 - 04/18/11 12:13 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

BUUUUUUUUT then again quantum mechanics says that each particle is not definite but at a random (truly random) location based on probability. Which could disrupt the flow of events dramatically, but if we were to replay an event would the same "random" results occur again thru QM or would it play out entirely different. But maybe the randomness of each state is defined by the randomness of the previous states and balances out to form a solid deterministic state.....

jesus this is getting too deep for me to comprehend with the current available information................


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"Every individual is at once the beneficiary and the victim of the linguistic tradition into which he has been born - the beneficiary inasmuch as language gives access to the accumulated records of other people's experience, the victim in so far as it confirms him in the belief that reduced awareness is the only awareness and as it bedevils his sense of reality, so that he is all too apt to take his concepts for data, his words for actual things."


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Synapses-R-Us]
    #14309978 - 04/18/11 12:44 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Randomness is all beside the point.  Whatever free will is, it's not random.  It's deliberate, which is quite the opposite of random.  As such, I see no need to invoke quantum mechanics to make human agency sensible.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: meatcakeman] * 1
    #14310624 - 04/18/11 06:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

meatcakeman,

You know better than to call someone an "ignorant turd" in PS&P. And you have a long history of flaming here and in the other forums. If you keep it up, your ban is going to become permanent.

Take some time off and read the rest of the rules here before you post again:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4526664#4526664


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Silversoul]
    #14310699 - 04/18/11 07:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Randomness is all beside the point.  Whatever free will is, it's not random.  It's deliberate, which is quite the opposite of random.  As such, I see no need to invoke quantum mechanics to make human agency sensible.





Actually the meaning of random is that it is unpredictable.

The matter of free will is whether or not it can be predicted, theoretically, from physical makeup of the brain.

The materialist will say yes, knowing everything about the brain will tell you everything about how the brain will work.

But the modern physicalist will say - due to quantum indeterminacy, we can't trully predict what will occur definately.

And some others will say - the mind is still just based on probabilities and we are experiencing one of the many possible universes that are defined by quantum theory.



Two hydrogen atoms are not the same at all! This is ridiculous. Thats like saying all hydrogen atoms move to the left. Just stupid.

Hydrogen atoms are equal in their quantum properties. Which exact values they take are only confined by quantum states, which are probabilities.

This means the universe COULD be trully random in the sense that the values come from thin air. They COULD be determined by a hidden variable. This variable cannot be local, according to a strong argument that physicists mostly agree on. However, this variable COULD very well be a choice on the part of something non physical. Science has no say. All we can do is use occams razor to put our money on the simplest answer.

Some people think the simplest answer is the idea that there is no choice, only 'random' happenings. But random means unpredictable. It has the same importance as 'free-will'


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OfflineSimms
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14311015 - 04/18/11 09:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What determines randomness???


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Simms]
    #14311079 - 04/18/11 09:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Who knows? If we could predict randomness then we could create a model that explains how to determine randomness, and it would no longer be random. But otherwise we are left without knowledge. It could be anything, it could be something physical or not.

This is really a problem with causality at the moment. Our quantum mechanics can tell a certain causal story about the probabilistic flow of energy but it cant say what causes a wave function to collapse into any particular particle. Just 'random'

Hence the idea of the multiverse -

The idea that nothing causes randomness, its just that all possibilities exist and we are one of them. This is popular because the laws state that all possibilities can be equally true. So rather than think any possibility really is existing over others, you can just say that they all exist.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Diploid]
    #14311274 - 04/18/11 10:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Synapses-R-Us said:
Quote:

Poid said:
How are you defining "free will"? Do you not consider our decision-making processes to be examples of free will in action?




I don't. because there are individual steps to the process with each step defining the next


Well IMO, our decision-making processes are examples of free will in action, any definition of free will other than the capacity to utilize decision-making mechanisms is just mystical mumbo-jumbo. :levitate:


Quote:

Diploid said:
meatcakeman,

You know better than to call someone an "ignorant turd" in PS&P.


No he doesn't. :smirk:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
    #14311611 - 04/18/11 12:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Say goodbye to linearity. Causes that directly are followed by causes and so on are aged out concepts.
Since the chaos theory and the fractal viewpoint of our scientific universe, we know that even the smallest influences can bring a system totally into another condition of stability - known as the butterfly effect.
One has to control every condition to receive a reliable result from a scientific experiment. Where in hell on earth are all conditions controlled ?
That even hits on the mathematical dogma (edit:axiom) of 'symmetry', where in fact on earth this symmetry never was proven real, only in an abstract 'sense'.
All is influenced in 'parrallel' - probabilistic, not linear ways :tongue:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (04/18/11 12:09 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14311655 - 04/18/11 12:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Chaos, in the scientific sense, is completely deterministic.  The butterfly effect is not due to any intrinsic probabilistic nature and does not negate the classical notion of cause and effect.


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OfflineSynapses-R-Us
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Silversoul]
    #14311659 - 04/18/11 12:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Randomness is all beside the point.  Whatever free will is, it's not random.  It's deliberate, which is quite the opposite of random.  As such, I see no need to invoke quantum mechanics to make human agency sensible.




you obviously have no idea what i was trying to say


--------------------
"Every individual is at once the beneficiary and the victim of the linguistic tradition into which he has been born - the beneficiary inasmuch as language gives access to the accumulated records of other people's experience, the victim in so far as it confirms him in the belief that reduced awareness is the only awareness and as it bedevils his sense of reality, so that he is all too apt to take his concepts for data, his words for actual things."


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: DieCommie]
    #14311959 - 04/18/11 01:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Chaos, in the scientific sense, is completely deterministic.



That's like saying determinism is completely chaotic. So how can it be, that radioactive decay can not be determined ?

Quote:

DieCommie said:
The butterfly effect is not due to any intrinsic probabilistic nature and does not negate the classical notion of cause and effect.



No, but the butterfly effect can falsify classical theories fast, when they are not kept  in a controlled environment, that what science is excluding (edit: us from) and what contradicts our natural environment.

The key idea is to bring those two theories together. To see how small influences can have huge effects, together with that there is no controlled environment in nature, so everything has effects on each other simultaneously, in a cause and effect way, but not only linear, but also parrallel, as they effect each other too.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (04/18/11 01:29 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14312146 - 04/18/11 01:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Chaos, in the scientific sense, is completely deterministic.



That's like saying determinism is completely chaotic.




No, all chaotic systems are deterministic but not all deterministic systems exhibit chaos. 

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
So how can it be, that radioactive decay can not be determined ?





Im not sure "how it can be"... But radioactive decay is not a phenomenon characterized by chaos.  Chaos is strictly deterministic, radioactive decay is not.


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Invisibleviginti tres
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
    #14314163 - 04/18/11 09:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

IMO the idea that all or most people have "free will" is very obviously false (depending on the definition, of course); however, that doesn't mean it doesn't/can't exist.

most people like -and have been taught- to believe they are free from their biology, conditioning (programming), etc. but for those of us who are slightly less robotic and/or have paid attention to how most people act/talk/etc., it should be clear that most people seem pretty much like robots (predictable, boring, stuck in loops).

I believe we have the potential for "free will", which I define as the ability to transcend our programming/conditioning/imprints/learning and become the programmer instead of the programmed, but it takes hard "work" and perseverance and is not at all a quick process (and there may not be an end to the journey).


--------------------
my posts are nothing more than fiction


Edited by viginti tres (04/19/11 12:01 AM)


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InvisibleKid_Orgo
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: viginti tres]
    #14314415 - 04/18/11 10:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Is it not also possible that something indistinguishable from free will arises from the unfathomable complexity of the human mind? Even seemingly simple systems (a pendulum with another pendulum on the bob) can behave in ways that are essentially unpredictable. You could also take as examples exactly how turbulence works, or crack propagation. If the system is effectively non-deterministic in this fashion, it's immaterial whether "free will" in the absolute sense is present: it behaves the same with or without it being truly "free" of its constituents.

In short: it may take something as complex as a human mind (with all of its experiences and their interactions) to predict its behavior, and thus could reasonably be considered "free"


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


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Offlineinphinity
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14314503 - 04/18/11 10:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

An absurd statement made by a troll.

He hasn't contested one person's dispute quit wasting our time.


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Invisibleviginti tres
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14314739 - 04/18/11 11:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Sorry, this user is currently high as shit and unable to comprehend your response at this time. He says  :tee:


also:

Quote:

inphinity said:
An absurd statement made by a troll.

He hasn't contested one person's dispute quit wasting our time.




you talkin bout me, guy?  :trolldance:


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InvisibleKid_Orgo
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: inphinity]
    #14314742 - 04/18/11 11:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not sure if you meant to reply to me or what.

If so, I'd love to hear how anything I said is either absurd or posted only to get a rise out of people.


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14315008 - 04/19/11 12:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yeah i think he was in fact the troll here


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Offlinesynapz
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
    #14318058 - 04/19/11 03:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

---The idea of free will is nonsensical because it would require input beyond that of the structure of your brain caused by DNA and past experiences.---



the only nonsensical thinking here is yours playa


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: synapz] * 1
    #14324521 - 04/20/11 06:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

synapz said:
Quote:

---The idea of free will is nonsensical because it would require input beyond that of the structure of your brain caused by DNA and past experiences.---



the only nonsensical thinking here is yours playa




It may help if you would actually refute my argument instead of just stating that I am wrong.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Poid]
    #14324537 - 04/20/11 07:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Well IMO, our decision-making processes are examples of free will in action, any definition of free will other than the capacity to utilize decision-making mechanisms is just mystical mumbo-jumbo.




Well, it seems to me that free will is commonly taken to be representative of some ultimately "free" force within ourselves that is used to justify things like the judicial system.

I think it that just "will" is a much more proper way of defining the personal decision making processes we all possess. Calling it "free" does nothing more than perpetuate this sort of "mystical mumbo-jumbo".

We both seem to agree, so it is more just an argument of semantics at this point.


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
    #14325527 - 04/20/11 10:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

the whole physicalist vs materialist issue still doesnt adress the issue of the common conception of free will though, the problem is that some people think they can make decisions free of the variables which create an outcome and some people dont. the people who think they can, use randomness as a front to protect their idea of free will, but the fact is, even if the universe was random it wouldnt be within human control so there is no decision maker separate from the decision itself.the decision is made by the brain so unless you are something separate from the brain which can influence the brain there is no free will.imo this topic gets hijacked and turns into a debate about whether there is a soul or not even if some people dont know or admit thats what their defending.


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
    #14326932 - 04/21/11 09:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It may help if you would actually refute my argument instead of just stating that I am wrong.




Good point! Sorry (I was rushed for time)

the idea of free will is a looping pile of ridiculous nonsense

thought, ideas, story, coming into view and fading away from view

it's neither here nor there

we have a limited number of choices available to us in any given situation

and we choose whatever the fuck we think works in our favor.

fucking "free will" never comes into play, that shit is only a vague abstract idea we argue FOR or AGAINST as if it actually had some fucking reality beyond the vague hazy idea we have about it as we bicker among ourselves like stupid fucking monkeys

it.

does.

NOT.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: synapz]
    #14328009 - 04/21/11 02:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

we have a limited number of choices available to us in any given situation




Then you believe in free will.  Otherwise, we have no choice at all.


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Offlinesynapz
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: DieCommie]
    #14328029 - 04/21/11 02:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Then you believe in free will.  Otherwise, we have no choice at all.




Try to neglect yourself of choice.

If you had freewill,

then

why can you NOT choose to neglect yourself of choice?

It's REALLY tricky.

That's why I say... we have a limited number of choices.

If you want to believe I believe in freewill, that's perfectly your right. It's not all together inaccurate... though it's not precise either.

meh.

whatever floats your boat :smile:


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: synapz]
    #14328069 - 04/21/11 02:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.  :smile:


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: zoomfan]
    #14328221 - 04/21/11 03:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zoomfan said:
the whole physicalist vs materialist issue still doesnt adress the issue of the common conception of free will though, the problem is that some people think they can make decisions free of the variables which create an outcome and some people dont. the people who think they can, use randomness as a front to protect their idea of free will, but the fact is, even if the universe was random it wouldnt be within human control so there is no decision maker separate from the decision itself.the decision is made by the brain so unless you are something separate from the brain which can influence the brain there is no free will.imo this topic gets hijacked and turns into a debate about whether there is a soul or not even if some people dont know or admit thats what their defending.




I agree.


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Offlinesynapz
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: DieCommie]
    #14328304 - 04/21/11 03:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.


 

Who is to say you only chose to decide NOT to decide because the choice of choosing  to decide,

was

in fact

not available?

(almost had me, I was like "wait a second here?!")


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: synapz]
    #14328317 - 04/21/11 03:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

synapz said:
Quote:

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.


 

Who is to say you only chose to decide NOT to decide because the choice of choosing  to decide,

was

in fact

not available?

(almost had me, I was like "wait a second here?!")




Ya

its cool

to post like you

are in

a

stimulant

induced psychosis.


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Offlinesynapz
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
    #14328509 - 04/21/11 04:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ya

its cool

to post like you

are in

a

stimulant

induced psychosis.




I find it helps me be clear. I would recommend it to everyone really. I find it lets me be able to separate my thoughts more clearly as I write. It puts more "feel" into the words, less static of mind.


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Oh Snapz


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: synapz]
    #14328563 - 04/21/11 04:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

synapz said:
I find it helps me be clear.




I think the audience would be a better judge of that (rather than the author).


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: DieCommie]
    #14328873 - 04/21/11 05:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


I think the audience would be a better judge of that (rather than the author).




How do you figure, mate?

I find it helps me be clearer. That's a fact of the reality of my direct experience.

If you don't get it or understand it, the fuck do I care? I can't fix stupid. I can't make myself stupid so I can be understood by stupid people. I am smart and I am only interested in smart people and smart conversations.


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Oh Snapz


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: synapz]
    #14330004 - 04/21/11 08:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

we have a limited number of choices available to us in any given situation... and we choose whatever the fuck we think works in our favor...fucking "free will" never comes into play

I think that would be a valid argument if consciousness didn't exist.

But it does exist and what give it rise isn't known. Maybe it's a deterministic emergent property of matter, or maybe it's genuine original volition.

It may be that consciousness/volition "just happens" when a system become sufficiently complex for it to emerge. And HOW consciousness/volition happens may be a permanently unknowable mechanism of nature.

There is precedent for this.

As far as we can tell, there is no cause of nuclear decay. It "just happens" with a precise probability. According to the currently-available evidence, HOW decay happens is a permanently unknowable mechanism of nature.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Diploid]
    #14330029 - 04/21/11 08:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

HOW decay happens is a permanently unknowable mechanism of nature.




Something about sugar and bacteria...


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Offlinesynapz
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Diploid]
    #14330082 - 04/21/11 09:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I think that would be a valid argument if consciousness didn't exist.





But it does exist and what give it rise isn't known. Maybe it's a deterministic emergent property of matter, or maybe it's genuine original volition.

It may be that consciousness/volition "just happens" when a system become sufficiently complex for it to emerge. And HOW consciousness/volition happens may be a permanently unknowable mechanism of nature.

There is precedent for this.

As far as we can tell, there is no cause of nuclear decay. It "just happens" with a precise probability. According to the currently-available evidence, HOW decay happens is a permanently unknowable mechanism of nature.

eh fuck it

was gonna reply to it

(i don't read and then reply, i read as i reply together)

then thought, this shit makes no sense there's nothing to fucking say

_hence_


--------------------

Oh Snapz


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: synapz]
    #14330525 - 04/21/11 10:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So let me see if I understand.

You were gonna reply, but decided not to. Then you posted noise with zero information entropy anyway.

Is that about it?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: synapz]
    #14330542 - 04/21/11 10:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What doesnt make sense about it?


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: DieCommie]
    #14330556 - 04/21/11 10:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.  :smile:




ahah rock on brother!



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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14332138 - 04/22/11 08:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ha, I actually really dislike that song.  But I do like the lyric.


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Diploid]
    #14332987 - 04/22/11 11:51 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

So let me see if I understand.

You were gonna reply, but decided not to. Then you posted noise with zero information entropy anyway.

Is that about it?




*nods*


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14332989 - 04/22/11 11:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What doesnt make sense about it?




everything


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14332993 - 04/22/11 11:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ahah rock on brother!




u missed the part where i gave him a wedgie playa?


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: synapz]
    #14333335 - 04/22/11 01:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

*nods*

In that case your posts amount to trolling. It's against the rules. Post on topic or take it to the OTD forum where noise is how they debate there.

Consider this your warning.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Diploid]
    #14333900 - 04/22/11 03:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Enough crazy events have happened in my life. So unexplainable and so mysterious that by now, even though it is very hard to convince yourself, I accept freewill as an illusion. It's so tough and anytime I tell people this it doesn't cone out even slightly convincing. I won't waste my time detailing too many events to recall all of, I'll just summarize by saying I've had many dreams and waking premonitions that later (sometimes YEARS later) fall into place by events that could not possibly collectively be coincidence. They occur due to specific interactions between humans operating under what we perceive as free will. When you've got something that was shown to you in a vision when you were 16, then you just go about your "free will" life, meeting one person through weird circumstance who introduces you to another person through unusual cicrumstance, who leads you to your lover through incredibly unusual cirmustances that absolutely could not have taken place unless 20 different factors were in place, and you remember almost changing a few of those factors but ultimately "deciding on something else" due to instinct, then you and said lover have a child with the same look and personality as the one you had a vision of 10 years earlier, this child leading you to certain career paths that land you exactly where you always KNEW in your heart you'd be. Doing what you always knew you'd be doing, but by now you see that you didn't have mch of an effect on the unfolding at all. That was one minor summarized exams of countless events I've had turn out Deja vu style.

It's not at all impossible that history could be unfolding according to a very complex "godmind" mathematical formula. Every leaf, animal, all the way down to every cell can be given a code. When applying a pattern inconceivable to humans in our lifetime to all these codes in physical reality, specific events, even what words you choose to use at what times you choose to say them can begin to be mathematically predicted. I call it the godly formula of free-will.

It's impossible to prove either side of this argument but I think everyone has the same opportunity to see correlations in life like I did with the one I described above, I think most people are far too out if tune with their natural self to even recall important dreams and be able to connect the dots. It's not like a dude named god came and directly told me that he runs things personally, it's that too many literally magical things have happened in a manner that is literally hilarious to write off as coincidence.


How about this one.... 5 friends are sitting around a fire tripping on 200 mics of LSD each. They start talking philosophy etc. when one person says "think about the concept of zero. Try to imagine nothingness. What if the universe had never existed what would it be like yada yada yada, so the zero talk evolves into talking about one. The concept of unity oneness yada yada yada anything trippy you can think of about one. Anyways, one of the friends had developed a playlist of music to listen to during the trip. It consisted of literally 1000s of songs playing on randomization mode on his computer. While talking about "one" and how were really all one and not separate, a girl starts singing the three dog night song "one is the loneliest number". We all started laughing because none if us were exactly three dog night fans, but my friend with the music says "that's funny I had a feeling to download that song today and add it to our playlist tonight"( he is by no means a three dog night fan and didn't really give a rats ass about this song) but we say " that's funny, what if it started playing right now?"
That exact moment the current song stopped and there was a few seconds of silence where we all sat there anticipating what was next...,
"(piano thumps dum dum dum dum dum dum dum one is the loneliest number that you'll ever know"
Have any of you ever heard the song? Imagine that piano coming in at an epic moment like this. On a huge timeline, at this precise moment we decided to talk about zero. This led us o to the topic of one at a specific pace so as to land us talking about this song coming on at the EXACT moment that, 1 song out of 1500 randomly cones on the playlist. Add the head full of acid and your either stubborn or you start reconsidering the nature of free-will.


This ole saying applies here, your dog can not conceive and understand the concept of thermodynamics, yet we know it exists thanks to our specific brain. So why is it crazy to think that a concept like the formula of free-will might exist as well?


--------------------


Edited by LightShedder (04/22/11 03:27 PM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: LightShedder] * 1
    #14334151 - 04/22/11 04:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

tl;dr


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Poid]
    #14334376 - 04/22/11 05:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If you could choose to have Free Will or not, which way would you pick?


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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14334991 - 04/22/11 07:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I already feel like I do! The concept of free will you speak of, the choice to stick my penis in her butt or her chicken shack, I always am thinking with. I just can't predict where it will lead me to based on my prior experiences. It's hard to notice, but at times I've picked up on how my subconscious mind controls my actions. My subconscious mind is nothing more than an accumulation of my past experiences mixed with whatever my genetics decided to do with my brain chemistry. Although this isn't proof, imagine that your past experiences, everything in history essentially, was a part of the plan. In that plan, you were destined to have the specific brain chemistry in which you do so that you could interact with those events in the prescribed way. Both of those things control our subconscious, genetics and experience. Our subconscious controls our actions. You aren't Making any decision without applying some energy from your brain. Subconscious has got to have a lot to do with it.


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Offlinesynapz
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Diploid]
    #14335012 - 04/22/11 07:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

*nods*

In that case your posts amount to trolling. It's against the rules. Post on topic or take it to the OTD forum where noise is how they debate there.

Consider this your warning.




how about no

u can suck my dick instead how about that?


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Offlinesynapz
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: synapz]
    #14335073 - 04/22/11 08:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

LOL!

he actually did! the fool actually wasted his time to "report me"

for what?

FOR WHAT?


Nature of offense: Offender Answered A Question

lmao cant make this shit up if u tried

grow up and quit bein a little bitch yesh


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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: synapz]
    #14335120 - 04/22/11 08:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Have some freewill would ya!?!?


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Offlinesynapz
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: LightShedder]
    #14335148 - 04/22/11 08:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

uh u mean restraint ?


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14335177 - 04/22/11 08:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If you could choose to have Free Will or not, which way would you pick?



Undecided...:undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Poid]
    #14335354 - 04/22/11 08:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Undecided...




Sounds like a plan if I ever heard one :smile:


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Oh Snapz


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: synapz]
    #14335361 - 04/22/11 08:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:highfive:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: LightShedder]
    #14337034 - 04/23/11 03:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

LightShedder said:
Have some freewill would ya!?!?





Doesn't seem to have any.

Unluckily for him, being a drama queen and having a tantrum over recieving a warning will get ya the same result whether you have free will or not.

Yeesh- figured I better ban the guy or there'd be fifty more posts bitching about Diploid's warning by the time another mod comes across it, lol.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14337808 - 04/23/11 10:56 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If you could choose to have Free Will or not, which way would you pick?




Well the existence of free will would require some crazy ass magic shit, and that sounds like it might be interesting so let's say maybe.


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Live your Life! :heart:


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
    #14338373 - 04/23/11 12:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe what?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Poid]
    #14339360 - 04/23/11 04:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I would maybe choose to have free will exist. I would want a general rundown on what that would entail, for in our physical world it is a ridiculous idea.


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Live your Life! :heart:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
    #14339411 - 04/23/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The idea of free will is nonsensical because it would require input beyond that of the structure of your brain caused by DNA and past experiences.

It's not that simple.

If have two choices A and B, you might argue that my choice is an irrevocable consequence of my past experiences. But I could decide to choose based in the flip of a coin.

What happens to your premise now that my decision is no longer a function of my past experiences (if it ever was).


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Diploid]
    #14339824 - 04/23/11 06:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
The idea of free will is nonsensical because it would require input beyond that of the structure of your brain caused by DNA and past experiences.

It's not that simple.

If have two choices A and B, you might argue that my choice is an irrevocable consequence of my past experiences. But I could decide to choose based in the flip of a coin.

What happens to your premise now that my decision is no longer a function of my past experiences (if it ever was).




Your decision to choose based on a coin toss was due to your DNA and past experiences. You also have no control over how the coin lands. There is still no free will.


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Live your Life! :heart:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
    #14339889 - 04/23/11 06:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You also have no control over how the coin lands.

That's true, but my point is that my decision in that case is NOT a simple consequence of my experiences.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinezoomfan
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: NetDiver]
    #14339931 - 04/23/11 06:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Well, the question of whether or not we have free-will is a dualist question to begin with, because it implies an agent somehow separate from the rest of the system.

It still seems to us like we have the ability to make decisions, though, and we have to hold people accountable for their actions. :shrug:




this is the motivation for most people who argue for free will, and with good reason, if it became common opinion that we have no control, people would lose their sense of accountability. its not that the human being has no control its that there isnt an agent independant of the human being which can influence the human being.

the belief that im not responsible for my actions would simply replace the belief that i am responsible for my actions. people like to think that when they think about something and make a decision this mythical agent who they "really are" has made the choice but the fact is the human biocomputer just made a calculation and the easiest way to explain it is to say i made a choice.

this is a case,though, where semantics does matter. for example consciously make the choice to snap your fingers.....dont read further until you do this. after you have done this ask yourself, did you actually have the choice to snap your fingers or was it the fact that i asked you too along with your curiosity etc, which made you think it was a conscious choice?

conscious choice is just a simplified understanding of a very complex process. just like most people are not aware of exactly how the sum is come to when 57483 divided by 76483 is typed int9 a calculator.


--------------------
Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.


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OfflineOwsley2.0
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Diploid]
    #14341920 - 04/24/11 02:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
You also have no control over how the coin lands.

That's true, but my point is that my decision in that case is NOT a simple consequence of my experiences.




He just told you it is. Where'd you come up with the idea of flipping a coin? This is nothing new, flipping a coin. Past experiences also led you up to that moment and are responsible for the way you feel when you decide to go with the good ole coin toss.

I like the coin toss, givin in to the flow.


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Diploid]
    #14343204 - 04/24/11 11:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
You also have no control over how the coin lands.

That's true, but my point is that my decision in that case is NOT a simple consequence of my experiences.




The outcome of the event is not STRICTLY due to your past experiences due to the randomness of the coin toss. However, your decision is still a consequence of your past experiences because that is what caused you to choose to base your decision off of a coin flip and to follow through with it. The way the coin lands is not a "decision".


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Live your Life! :heart:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
    #14343880 - 04/24/11 03:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

your decision is still a consequence of your past experiences

I agree that's true in gross decisions. If someone asks me whether I want to go to church this Sunday, my past experience will have a strong influence on my answer of "no way".

But if someone asks me if I want the chicken or the fish for dinner, how the decision goes is a matter of whim and not preordained or decided for me, IMO.

I believe this is so because of the confounding effects of consciousness. As far as I can tell, my consciousness has genuine free volition. If I were an automaton, then I'd agree with you. But I'm not, so I don't.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offline4896744
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Diploid]
    #14343958 - 04/24/11 03:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
your decision is still a consequence of your past experiences

I agree that's true in gross decisions. If someone asks me whether I want to go to church this Sunday, my past experience will have a strong influence on my answer of "no way".

But if someone asks me if I want the chicken or the fish for dinner, how the decision goes is a matter of whim and not preordained or decided for me, IMO.

I believe this is so because of the confounding effects of consciousness. As far as I can tell, my consciousness has genuine free volition. If I were an automaton, then I'd agree with you. But I'm not, so I don't.




It seems we agree for the most part except for some small exceptions that I don't really have a solid case for.

I still think that what you see as "free" will is an illusion, even in the case of what you want for dinner. Let's just agree to disagree for the argument seems to be going nowhere.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Silversoul]
    #14359588 - 04/27/11 05:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Not really.  There is such a thing as emergence.  Biology and experience come together to create an emergent structure called the self.  The self can be subject to multiple influences and impulses with contradictory choices.  For example, you may crave a piece of chocolate cake, but also be worrying about your weight.  You can either indulge in your immediate desire for the cake, or commit to your diet and abstain.  That is what's called a choice(and I'd argue that the latter is more of a choice than the former).  When our desires do not conflict and we have a clear preference, then there isn't really any will involved.  But when we are faced with a choice between fulfilling one desire or another, then we have to use our willpower, particularly when it comes to choosing between instant gratification(cake) or long-term goals(weight loss).  The very fact that we are able to set long-term goals and fulfill them is all the proof we need of the existence of will(whether you call it "free" or not is little more than a game of semantics).

QED




Nicely stated! :thumbup:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14365218 - 04/28/11 04:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The free-willers have their minds made up. As do the fate-ers. We both have the same world to go by. We both know about the preferences towards chicken/fish.

Your opinion on the matter is clearly a representation of yourself and not necessarily truth about what/how things are happening. I think this can be agreed on.


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