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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
#14311611 - 04/18/11 12:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Say goodbye to linearity. Causes that directly are followed by causes and so on are aged out concepts. Since the chaos theory and the fractal viewpoint of our scientific universe, we know that even the smallest influences can bring a system totally into another condition of stability - known as the butterfly effect. One has to control every condition to receive a reliable result from a scientific experiment. Where in hell on earth are all conditions controlled ? That even hits on the mathematical dogma (edit:axiom) of 'symmetry', where in fact on earth this symmetry never was proven real, only in an abstract 'sense'. All is influenced in 'parrallel' - probabilistic, not linear ways
Edited by BlueCoyote (04/18/11 12:09 PM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: BlueCoyote]
#14311655 - 04/18/11 12:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Chaos, in the scientific sense, is completely deterministic. The butterfly effect is not due to any intrinsic probabilistic nature and does not negate the classical notion of cause and effect.
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Synapses-R-Us
Perspective is Subjective


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 70
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Silversoul]
#14311659 - 04/18/11 12:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: Randomness is all beside the point. Whatever free will is, it's not random. It's deliberate, which is quite the opposite of random. As such, I see no need to invoke quantum mechanics to make human agency sensible.
you obviously have no idea what i was trying to say
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"Every individual is at once the beneficiary and the victim of the linguistic tradition into which he has been born - the beneficiary inasmuch as language gives access to the accumulated records of other people's experience, the victim in so far as it confirms him in the belief that reduced awareness is the only awareness and as it bedevils his sense of reality, so that he is all too apt to take his concepts for data, his words for actual things."
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: DieCommie]
#14311959 - 04/18/11 01:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Chaos, in the scientific sense, is completely deterministic.
That's like saying determinism is completely chaotic. So how can it be, that radioactive decay can not be determined ?
Quote:
DieCommie said: The butterfly effect is not due to any intrinsic probabilistic nature and does not negate the classical notion of cause and effect.
No, but the butterfly effect can falsify classical theories fast, when they are not kept in a controlled environment, that what science is excluding (edit: us from) and what contradicts our natural environment.
The key idea is to bring those two theories together. To see how small influences can have huge effects, together with that there is no controlled environment in nature, so everything has effects on each other simultaneously, in a cause and effect way, but not only linear, but also parrallel, as they effect each other too.
Edited by BlueCoyote (04/18/11 01:29 PM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: BlueCoyote]
#14312146 - 04/18/11 01:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Quote:
DieCommie said: Chaos, in the scientific sense, is completely deterministic.
That's like saying determinism is completely chaotic.
No, all chaotic systems are deterministic but not all deterministic systems exhibit chaos.
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: So how can it be, that radioactive decay can not be determined ?
Im not sure "how it can be"... But radioactive decay is not a phenomenon characterized by chaos. Chaos is strictly deterministic, radioactive decay is not.
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viginti tres
Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 95
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
#14314163 - 04/18/11 09:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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IMO the idea that all or most people have "free will" is very obviously false (depending on the definition, of course); however, that doesn't mean it doesn't/can't exist.
most people like -and have been taught- to believe they are free from their biology, conditioning (programming), etc. but for those of us who are slightly less robotic and/or have paid attention to how most people act/talk/etc., it should be clear that most people seem pretty much like robots (predictable, boring, stuck in loops).
I believe we have the potential for "free will", which I define as the ability to transcend our programming/conditioning/imprints/learning and become the programmer instead of the programmed, but it takes hard "work" and perseverance and is not at all a quick process (and there may not be an end to the journey).
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my posts are nothing more than fiction
Edited by viginti tres (04/19/11 12:01 AM)
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Kid_Orgo



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 5,514
Loc: Hale-Bopp
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: viginti tres]
#14314415 - 04/18/11 10:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Is it not also possible that something indistinguishable from free will arises from the unfathomable complexity of the human mind? Even seemingly simple systems (a pendulum with another pendulum on the bob) can behave in ways that are essentially unpredictable. You could also take as examples exactly how turbulence works, or crack propagation. If the system is effectively non-deterministic in this fashion, it's immaterial whether "free will" in the absolute sense is present: it behaves the same with or without it being truly "free" of its constituents.
In short: it may take something as complex as a human mind (with all of its experiences and their interactions) to predict its behavior, and thus could reasonably be considered "free"
-------------------- He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.
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inphinity
...and beyond.



Registered: 06/05/09
Posts: 238
Loc: The Golden State
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Kid_Orgo]
#14314503 - 04/18/11 10:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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An absurd statement made by a troll.
He hasn't contested one person's dispute quit wasting our time.
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viginti tres
Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 95
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Kid_Orgo]
#14314739 - 04/18/11 11:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sorry, this user is currently high as shit and unable to comprehend your response at this time. He says
also:
Quote:
inphinity said: An absurd statement made by a troll.
He hasn't contested one person's dispute quit wasting our time.
you talkin bout me, guy?
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my posts are nothing more than fiction
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Kid_Orgo



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 5,514
Loc: Hale-Bopp
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: inphinity]
#14314742 - 04/18/11 11:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not sure if you meant to reply to me or what.
If so, I'd love to hear how anything I said is either absurd or posted only to get a rise out of people.
-------------------- He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Kid_Orgo]
#14315008 - 04/19/11 12:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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yeah i think he was in fact the troll here
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synapz
pee on flowing lava = fail


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 80
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
#14318058 - 04/19/11 03:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
---The idea of free will is nonsensical because it would require input beyond that of the structure of your brain caused by DNA and past experiences.---
the only nonsensical thinking here is yours playa
-------------------- Oh Snapz
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4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: synapz] 1
#14324521 - 04/20/11 06:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
synapz said:
Quote:
---The idea of free will is nonsensical because it would require input beyond that of the structure of your brain caused by DNA and past experiences.---
the only nonsensical thinking here is yours playa
It may help if you would actually refute my argument instead of just stating that I am wrong.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: Poid]
#14324537 - 04/20/11 07:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Well IMO, our decision-making processes are examples of free will in action, any definition of free will other than the capacity to utilize decision-making mechanisms is just mystical mumbo-jumbo.
Well, it seems to me that free will is commonly taken to be representative of some ultimately "free" force within ourselves that is used to justify things like the judicial system.
I think it that just "will" is a much more proper way of defining the personal decision making processes we all possess. Calling it "free" does nothing more than perpetuate this sort of "mystical mumbo-jumbo".
We both seem to agree, so it is more just an argument of semantics at this point.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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zoomfan
doubt 'er


Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 505
Loc: eastern Canada
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
#14325527 - 04/20/11 10:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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the whole physicalist vs materialist issue still doesnt adress the issue of the common conception of free will though, the problem is that some people think they can make decisions free of the variables which create an outcome and some people dont. the people who think they can, use randomness as a front to protect their idea of free will, but the fact is, even if the universe was random it wouldnt be within human control so there is no decision maker separate from the decision itself.the decision is made by the brain so unless you are something separate from the brain which can influence the brain there is no free will.imo this topic gets hijacked and turns into a debate about whether there is a soul or not even if some people dont know or admit thats what their defending.
-------------------- Thinking is dreaming wake up and enjoy the dream.
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synapz
pee on flowing lava = fail


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 80
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: 4896744]
#14326932 - 04/21/11 09:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
It may help if you would actually refute my argument instead of just stating that I am wrong.
Good point! Sorry (I was rushed for time)
the idea of free will is a looping pile of ridiculous nonsense
thought, ideas, story, coming into view and fading away from view
it's neither here nor there
we have a limited number of choices available to us in any given situation
and we choose whatever the fuck we think works in our favor.
fucking "free will" never comes into play, that shit is only a vague abstract idea we argue FOR or AGAINST as if it actually had some fucking reality beyond the vague hazy idea we have about it as we bicker among ourselves like stupid fucking monkeys
it.
does.
NOT.
-------------------- Oh Snapz
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: synapz]
#14328009 - 04/21/11 02:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
we have a limited number of choices available to us in any given situation
Then you believe in free will. Otherwise, we have no choice at all.
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synapz
pee on flowing lava = fail


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 80
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: DieCommie]
#14328029 - 04/21/11 02:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Then you believe in free will. Otherwise, we have no choice at all.
Try to neglect yourself of choice.
If you had freewill,
then
why can you NOT choose to neglect yourself of choice?
It's REALLY tricky.
That's why I say... we have a limited number of choices.
If you want to believe I believe in freewill, that's perfectly your right. It's not all together inaccurate... though it's not precise either.
meh.
whatever floats your boat
-------------------- Oh Snapz
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: synapz]
#14328069 - 04/21/11 02:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
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4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Re: The Idea Of Free Will Is Ludicrous [Re: zoomfan]
#14328221 - 04/21/11 03:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
zoomfan said: the whole physicalist vs materialist issue still doesnt adress the issue of the common conception of free will though, the problem is that some people think they can make decisions free of the variables which create an outcome and some people dont. the people who think they can, use randomness as a front to protect their idea of free will, but the fact is, even if the universe was random it wouldnt be within human control so there is no decision maker separate from the decision itself.the decision is made by the brain so unless you are something separate from the brain which can influence the brain there is no free will.imo this topic gets hijacked and turns into a debate about whether there is a soul or not even if some people dont know or admit thats what their defending.
I agree.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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