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InvisibleJesusGoneRogue
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Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 9,495
Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: Samuel L Jackson]
    #14308892 - 04/17/11 09:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

very true samuel. i wont take it personal the day i go to far.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: Shroomism]
    #14308915 - 04/17/11 09:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
You should have seen the site in 1998





or even in 2004 when people were banned for anything other than goodvibes in the pub

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Invisible4runner
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Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 15,406
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Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: Remix]
    #14308922 - 04/17/11 09:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Remix said:
This reminds me...

...I miss the shroomerites anon forum.
:feelsbadman:




I do miss SA.

When I first joined I kept thing it was Sex Anonymous :facepalm: :shrug:

Which I guess it kind of was but damn there was some lols in there. And some good posts.

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OfflineRemix
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Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: 4runner]
    #14308973 - 04/17/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I know.

I once advised a guy who was obsessed with fucking fatties to throat fuck his girl until she could be considered bulimic and, accordingly, lose weight. This advise is now lost with the removal of said forum and any other internet users with savvy-enough google skills may now lack such informative advise.


--------------------

Edited by Remix (04/17/11 09:12 PM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: Legend] * 1
    #14309022 - 04/17/11 09:18 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

legit27 said:
Have the mods and admins taken to account how many people to not like pris#1? I know he's not that bad, i was just wondering if they had looked into that.




yes, many times, I'm frequently asked why someone was banned if the reason
wasnt readily apparent or if the offense was not deserving of the duration of
the ban, at that point I show them the reason which is generally a series of
posts... has it occurred to you that the reason so many dont like me is
because I'm consistent and I dont play favorites... many can vouch for that,
someone hits the button because someone is flaming them and it turns out they
were baiting to get that response, well it's unfortunate but they both get
the ban because the flamer wouldnt have reacted had the baiter not been
fishing and if one gets 5 days the other will as well... whether I like
you or just dont care I hand it out the same, I've slapped the hands of
mods and had mine slapped, I permabanned several people I liked end
enjoyed talking to... people will bitch when they have a target to bitch
about and the bullseye on my back says I'm it

some dont like me because my opinion isnt the same as theirs and I'll call
bullshit when I see bullshit... is my opinion the reasons you dont like me?

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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
f n o r d
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Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 17,192
Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: 4runner]
    #14309030 - 04/17/11 09:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

anunnakian said:
Because giving the control to a bunch of drugged up teens sounds like a good idea :shrug:





This.


--------------------
Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.

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InvisibleLegend
RIP Sasha
Male


Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 28,336
Loc: TX Flag
Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14309062 - 04/17/11 09:25 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

my opinion on you changes, but for the most part. I love you pris :datass:


--------------------
No sympathy for the devil, keep that in mind.
[url=
]Buy the ticket, take the ride. [/url]
Are you lost?

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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc: Flag
Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: 4runner] * 1
    #14309086 - 04/17/11 09:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not going to reply to the responses individually, as there are just too many points to note and it would take awhile.

But in closing, there are a few things I'd like to address

  • Several people have indicated that "newbs be comin' in here all demanding an' shit, yo. YOU NEW, DAWG!" In fact, membership duration does not negate the validity of the arguments for or against changes in forum regulation. That logic exists independently of how much one identifies with being a regular. To counter otherwise is equivalent to saying the new rotating associate professor in physics can't make any bold claims because he's new, or that novice jazz players just ain't got that old timey jingle! Old hat is not best hat, sorry.

  • This wasn't an attempt (or even a bland desire) to change any Shroomery bureaucracy. It's an opportunity to discuss "what ifs" in addition to the whys, hows, and whens of its current state. At least to my mind (caveat emptor: "opinion") the psychedelic experience usually promotes creative perspectives that alter our traditional modes of being - we get fresh insights on the best ways to manage our lives and our relationships with other people (in addition to discovering HD Planet Earth is the shit). Instead of arguing about change itself, which is inevitable, or quickly making ad hominem attacks on alternative perspectives, it is much more fruitful to discuss specific details and ideas that arise from those new insights, which often include ways to overcome our tendencies towards hegemony.

  • The "giving control to a bunch of drugged up teens" argument is a gross underestimation of the value of the people who post here. In many cases the communication is one of baseless sarcasm and scatological humor, but that's just the nature of the beast. Besides, the website obviously doesn't mind generating revenue and ad hits from that same reckless group. Furthermore, the scope of the mission - or at least as it appears - includes transforming the stereotype that "drugged up teens" are ignorant and irresponsible people. I thought we left that logic with the drug war? Nobody's looking to sabotage anything; I would say the joke of trolling and recking the place actually arises from a compulsion to constantly control it.

  • Ythan's response indicates at the admin level there is an interest to implement voting policies that mimick Reddit in its ability to regulate the popularity and visibility of posts. So, I'm definitely not alone in suggesting this - according to him it is a matter of lack of resources and interest, not one of "IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT, MAN!" The Shroomery isn't a lawnmower. Ideally, it should be an open source platform for information exchange.



I'll close out with a reiterative note from our beloved moderator, Pris, in case we forget:

Quote:

news flash.. The Shroomery is Not a Democracy

with love,
The Bourgeois




--------------------

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: Legend]
    #14309129 - 04/17/11 09:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

legit27 said:
my opinion on you changes, but for the most part. I love you pris :datass:





gaddamnit... gotta work harder on that then

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OfflineRemix
grammer natze
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Registered: 08/05/10
Posts: 4,171
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: The Whale]
    #14309130 - 04/17/11 09:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
I'll close out with a reiterative note from our beloved moderator, Pris, in case we forget:

Quote:

news flash.. The Shroomery is Not a Democracy

with love,
The Bourgeois






:laugh2: Yes. We, here, at the shroomery are so oppressed.



--------------------

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: The Whale] * 1
    #14309458 - 04/17/11 10:31 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
I'm not trolling, I just want to promote discussion on why it is such a BAT SHIT CRAZY idea for members to hold majority votes on the way the Shroomery functions as a website and as a community: things like website features, moderator selection, rules, etc.

The majority of all the content, if not all of it, is user generated or user submitted - so why can't we manage ourselves? Installing a voting system would be ridiculously easy from a programming perspective.

It just appears to me to be hypocritical and slightly ironic that a drug forum which emphasizes the importance and autonomy of the individual still submits it to a hierarchy of control for no apparent reason. So, what gives?




Meh, who says letting the majority control the site would be a good idea?  Sometimes the most popular opinion is not the most correct or intelligent one, and for the most part I favor a benign dictatorship over the popularity contest that such a majority-ruled system would inevitably turn into IMO.  I can definitely see why having more influence over the way the Shroomery functions via voting is appealing, but I don't necessarily want to grant the average person the same power.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineMaharishi_2_U
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 6,316
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Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #14310495 - 04/18/11 05:14 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It was once generally accepted that the world was flat and that one could sail off the edge
:shrug:
whale I think your discusion is validated but you seek the wrong audience, in the wrong venue.
:twocents:

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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: Maharishi_2_U]
    #14310514 - 04/18/11 05:36 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think it would be a good idea to vote on moderators. The Admins are obviously in thier positions due to technical know-how, as well as the identifiers / cultivators, but other than that, I don't really see a reason we shouldn't vote on mods.

I think it would be neat to having people running for mods and an election kind of thing.

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Invisibleteknix
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Posts: 11,953
Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: Shroomism]
    #14310521 - 04/18/11 05:46 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Noobs have been coming on this site for years demanding democracy and fair justice.. new flash, this isn't a democratic nation it's a privately owned message board/website.

You act as if the admins don't even listen to the masses and take suggestions into account. Nothing could be further from the truth. The admins and mods listen and take everything into consideration.
That comes at a price though, because then they can end up wasting their valuable time catering to the whiners.

You should have seen the site in 1998, with the puke orange color scheme
Improvements are constantly being made, the site evolves into the greatest message board on the internet. Name one with more features and customization.
I honestly do not think it would be where it is today if OTD ran the place, or if we would even exist still




Yeah, and this suggestion should also be considered. If the general consensus is that your a good mod, then you have nothing to lose!

I think it would help eliminate any possible corruption as well.

:wink:

What makes you think that people would vote a douchebag to be a mod? Obviously the president and council would have the final say, but overall I think the users should be able to have some say as well.

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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,697
Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: Maharishi_2_U]
    #14310540 - 04/18/11 06:03 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Shroomery Spring. Democracy is such a fine thing, it is. Democratic systems just work better than others. Look at the West. All doing fine, those people, aren't they? They're driving their cars, eating their burgers, they can whine about their politicians or anything else that bothers them, and go about their days in a relatively worry-free manner. And they're democratic. So democracy works; you need democracy! WE need democracy! Today's it's the Arabs who step up to the plate and embrace this superior paradigm. The entire Western world is sympathetic to the efforts of Arab civilians demanding a better system and is ready to support them in fighting their old-fashioned autocratic leaders.

Likewise, we were sympathetic to the democratization of eastern European countries. Velvet Revolution; anything as soft as velvet can't be wrong, can it? And it wasn't. The Czech, Slovaks, Polish, Romanians, etc.: they all had some vision of what democracy would look like, and how it would improve, or at least change, their societies. They had examples in (culturally comparable) neighboring countries of democracies that worked fine, and the template could be transferred to the newly liberated countries. And even though it took two decades during which improvement was scarce, and a generation had to get to grips with a fundamentally altered society, in the end, it delivered. For most people. People became less constricted in what they were allowed say, although there remained substantial differences between what was legally allowed and what was socially and therefore realistically acceptable. Wealth began to be distributed in a different way. That this new distribution of wealth was perhaps just as unfair as it had been in the past, is something that took people more than 15 years to realize. But in one way things have improved dramatically. For now, they are democratic. And what's more, Democracy brought its twin brother called Free Market, and that tandem is the engine that generates limitless wealth. At least, it has always done that for us, in the West.

But now, the West is starting to run into the limitations of the wonder boys called Democracy and Free Market. It forces us to ask the question if wealth really equals prosperity, for that is the assumption we implicitly embraced for more than a century. And while a new surge of democratization sweeps the world, and Libyans, Egyptians, Tunisians, Syrians and Yemenites seek improvement of their situation by throwing out the old and embracing the new, some people in the West ask themselves in what specific areas the Arabs are expecting improvement, and how democracy is going to help them achieve that. And I just don't know, I really don't. The only thing I know is that when the question is asked of the revolutionaries what they really want, then the answer is invariably 'democracy'. And I can't help but wonder if democracy will taste as sweet as anticipated, if it will quench thirst, if it will protect against the cold, and if it will make more people feel better than they did before. I sincerely hope so, but I realistically don't expect we'll know within the next decade, as that is the time that it will take for the initial chaos to subside and some form of stability to emerge.

So concerning the topic of a democratic Shroomery, I can only ask: what will democracy bring us? And only then, if that question is addressed, in detail, resulting in a clear vision of what democracy means in this context, only then and not a minute earlier, start making changes. And while scrolling through this thread, it appeared to me that nobody has even raised the question why democracy would be desirable, other than for the hollow reasons of 'empowering people'. People only want to be empowered if they expect that it will improve their situation. So try to understand their situation first, and then think of how to improve it.

Democracy is not a panacea.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: koraks]
    #14310556 - 04/18/11 06:13 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It would just bring people a say-so, which is really all they want :smile:

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InvisibleFischer
Teonanacatalyst
I'm a teapot

Registered: 06/03/10
Posts: 565
Loc: Downunder
Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: teknix]
    #14310646 - 04/18/11 07:02 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think the title says it all; The Shroomery is not a democracy... why would anyone think it was? It's a privately-funded, privately-hosted forum.  And in my experience, democracy is one of the worst things that can happen to a place with no consequences or cost.

While the community is the clay that makes up the forum, it's down to the mods and admins to sculpt and remove parts, to keep it in line with its mission, whatever that may be. Users do not have intrinsic rights, and I'm totally ok with that, as a user who has learned and benefited with the only expectations being that

- I might share my experiences and assist those less knowledgeable (which amounts to no-one, at this stage)
- I refrain from acting like a cockjockey.

I've been on a few great forums that decided to stop trying, and gave into the constant bitching for "democracy".  You know what happened?  The "facist" mods were replaced with facist cliques, the members who were interested in the pure subject matter left for less dramatic pastures and the interesting info was replaced by the cool kids circlejerking.

They turned from places of learning into clubhouses.

Off subject, I think that part of the reason RogerRabbit is held in such esteem by the community is that despite seeing the same newbs, same questions, same bullshit, he still shares, teaches and tries as (I assume) he always did. People like that (or genuinely tireless mods/admin) are the only thing that stops a community overrunning a forum.  And in the end it's the community (including/especially those to come) who loses out. 

It's the job of mods to fend off that stagnation/decay as long as possible, so that the forum can remain active, fresh and focussed on what it was created for.

Edited by Fischer (04/18/11 07:09 AM)

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Invisiblegerryjarcia
biophiliac
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Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: The Whale] * 2
    #14310892 - 04/18/11 08:31 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
I'm not going to reply to the responses individually, as there are just too many points to note and it would take awhile.

But in closing, there are a few things I'd like to address

[LIST]
  • Several people have indicated that "newbs be comin' in here all demanding an' shit, yo. YOU NEW, DAWG!" In fact, membership duration does not negate the validity of the arguments for or against changes in forum regulation. That logic exists independently of how much one identifies with being a regular. To counter otherwise is equivalent to saying the new rotating associate professor in physics can't make any bold claims because he's new, or that novice jazz players just ain't got that old timey jingle! Old hat is not best hat, sorry.

  • This wasn't an attempt (or even a bland desire) to change any Shroomery bureaucracy. It's an opportunity to discuss "what ifs" in addition to the whys, hows, and whens of its current state. At least to my mind (caveat emptor: "opinion") the psychedelic experience usually promotes creative perspectives that alter our traditional modes of being - we get fresh insights on the best ways to manage our lives and our relationships with other people (in addition to discovering HD Planet Earth is the shit). Instead of arguing about change itself, which is inevitable, or quickly making ad hominem attacks on alternative perspectives, it is much more fruitful to discuss specific details and ideas that arise from those new insights, which often include ways to overcome our tendencies towards hegemony.

  • The "giving control to a bunch of drugged up teens" argument is a gross underestimation of the value of the people who post here. In many cases the communication is one of baseless sarcasm and scatological humor, but that's just the nature of the beast. Besides, the website obviously doesn't mind generating revenue and ad hits from that same reckless group. Furthermore, the scope of the mission - or at least as it appears - includes transforming the stereotype that "drugged up teens" are ignorant and irresponsible people. I thought we left that logic with the drug war? Nobody's looking to sabotage anything; I would say the joke of trolling and recking the place actually arises from a compulsion to constantly control it.

  • Ythan's response indicates at the admin level there is an interest to implement voting policies that mimick Reddit in its ability to regulate the popularity and visibility of posts. So, I'm definitely not alone in suggesting this - according to him it is a matter of lack of resources and interest, not one of "IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT, MAN!" The Shroomery isn't a lawnmower. Ideally, it should be an open source platform for information exchange.





  • are you a college T.A. (Teachers Assistant), cause you sure sound like one?

    i dig most of your posts, Whale, and i appreciate the intelligence you bring to most discussions. reading through this thread it's interesting to observe the various responses from other users.

    debates are interesting for me and i've sat through many of them over the years. sometimes i chime in, sometimes i just observe. it's interesting to see how people fall into their respective "roles" without even thinking about it (or maybe they do think about it and choose their particular role according to their liking).

    you have the protagonist and the antagonists and then all the varying roles in between.

    i too am an idealist (which can sometimes feel more like a disease i suffer from than a healthy perspective through which to view the world). i can empathize with your desire to encourage others to re-frame and rethink the "norm". even if the "norm" seems apparently "all good".

    one thing i've had to take into account while observing debates and discussions over the years was the ability and know how of the participants to engage in the art of critical thinking. i'm not talking about one person being "smarter" than the other. i'm referring to the learned and practiced skill of engaging an issue or set of issues through a lens that allows you to hold all the various angles up to the light to see them for what they are.

    from my experience, this is not a widely practiced art (just look at american political discourse).

    all that to say, cheers to you for bringing this up even if it has been discussed in the past on this site. we could use a dose of healthy critical thinking everyone once in a while if for nothing more than to remind ourselves of what we stand to lose and what we've already gained.


    --------------------


    "We are all intoxicated. We were born into an insane asylum, a world crazy-making. We believe what we see and hear. The real myth is the myth of sanity, of rationality: it's a disease that is eating away at the earth. All the poisons flow from our denial. We deny madness, we forget our crimes, we dismember the corpse, we imprison our children. We need poison to poison the poison, to remember the sacred nature of intoxication, the green body of the young god." ~ Dale Pendell

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    Invisibleteknix
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    Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: gerryjarcia]
        #14312985 - 04/18/11 03:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

    Those in the seats of power would obviously be inclined to disagree.

    Then there are those who resist any change out of fear. Not knowing what could happen :o . It is a bit insulting to think that the users here are too inept to decide who gets a ban priveledge?

    We makes choices for ourselves each day, and fortunately, we are still alive.

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    InvisibleFischer
    Teonanacatalyst
    I'm a teapot

    Registered: 06/03/10
    Posts: 565
    Loc: Downunder
    Re: The Shroomery is Not a Democracy [Re: teknix]
        #14313088 - 04/18/11 04:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

    I wouldn't say it's insulting to think that...  You're assuming that the vast majority of users on an x-thousand user site have enough investment, judgement, self control and take their online "social life" seriously enough to keep things on track, friendly and beneficial for the hobby/art/science of psychedelics/cult/etc.

    That is rarely the case, and never so on a large forum.  You will always get people who don't understand the etiquette, or piss people off, or look for opportunities to get butthurt, or behave in a way that's otherwise detrimental to the community.  And if you don't do anything about it, it only takes a few to wipe out the quality of a forum.

    But then, that's only *my* opinion (that the primary value of this place is the fact that it brings together a huge knowledge-base and people who want to learn).  If the community evolves to something that no longer grabs me, I'll move on.

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