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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Why "Experience" Is Unreliable 1
#14302598 - 04/16/11 06:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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The top and the bottom of the gray area in this pic are exactly the same shade of gray:

Now click here to see the gray area cropped and masked so the parts of the image that mislead your visual neurology are missing.
This effect happens because the human visual system has a built in unsharp mask to improve detail in human sight. Most of the time it helps us, but sometimes it misleads us.
This is one reason eyewitnesses are known to be extremely unreliable. Lawyers and judges are trained to treat eyewitnesses in court carefully to minimize the known problems with eyewitness testimony. These biases have been demonstrated by a hundred years of psychological experiments.
So why is it that, despite the unreliability of "experience", so many people put so much stock in their mystical experiences?
Can a True Believer splain me why they believe their "experience" is real and accurate even though the evidence says it probably isn't?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 26 days, 8 hours
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Diploid]
#14302614 - 04/16/11 06:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Another reason why experience is unreliable: my avatar and question above it.
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Brainstem
_@_y



Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Diploid]
#14302707 - 04/16/11 06:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Life itself is a mystical experience.
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jivJaN
yes


Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Diploid]
#14302798 - 04/16/11 07:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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When i cover everything but the gray parts i see how they are the same shade , but the upper part of the lower shape is highlighted.
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--------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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Brainstem
_@_y



Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Diploid]
#14302833 - 04/16/11 07:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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That's more of an optical illusion, and something which is engineered to trick the eye. Not all is experience is so devious.
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Cannashroom
Smoke two Joints



Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 2,141
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Brainstem]
#14302856 - 04/16/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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The mystical experience seems to have no base in our physical world. You can't bring it down to the wavelength of light (or brightness) like you can in the optical illusion. It is not like one of our other senses trying to interpret the immediate world for survival. It is just consciousness experiencing itself, without the other physical senses. In my opinion, it is the experience of having consciousness without the senses distracting you with the reality of the physical world. You are experiences just being and this is a divine feeling without the immediate suffering of the physical world to distract you.
Without your ego to reinforce your separation from the physical world, and without your senses to give you a anchoring location in the physical world you are just experiencing consciousness. There is nothing to compare this with in the physical world, so the only thing one will ever have is their own experience. Either you put faith in your experience and try and take from it what you can, or you disregard it.
-------------------- "A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security." Albert Einstein
Edited by Cannashroom (04/16/11 07:28 PM)
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Brainstem
_@_y



Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Cannashroom]
#14302861 - 04/16/11 07:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Pour example,
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Diploid]
#14304142 - 04/17/11 12:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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yes the senses are ultimately unreliable, that's why spiritual experiences are great, they go beyond the senses into a higher reality. Even still, optical illusions don't refute the validity of experience. I mean, you trust your experience, do you not? Or are you just in a constant state of doubt that anything is real? That would actually be a high contemplation, as long as you brought it inwards towards the identity and didn't just leave it at sensory reality. But something tells me you treat the physical world as if it's a concrete reality and aren't constantly on the lookout for illusions.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable *DELETED* [Re: g00ru]
#14304237 - 04/17/11 12:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post deleted by the bizzleReason for deletion: fuck it
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 11 years, 20 days
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: the bizzle]
#14304252 - 04/17/11 01:01 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL "True believer"
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: g00ru]
#14305105 - 04/17/11 08:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said: yes the senses are ultimately unreliable, that's why spiritual experiences are great, they go beyond the senses into a higher reality.
Ah, so one can't sense/experience spiritual experiences? 
Quote:
guruu said: Even still, optical illusions don't refute the validity of experience.
It shows that experience is unreliable.
Quote:
guruu said: I mean, you trust your experience, do you not? Or are you just in a constant state of doubt that anything is real?
One can put a certain amount of trust in their experience and still be aware that it is somewhat unreliable.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Cannashroom
Smoke two Joints



Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 2,141
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Poid]
#14305244 - 04/17/11 09:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
guruu said: yes the senses are ultimately unreliable, that's why spiritual experiences are great, they go beyond the senses into a higher reality.
Ah, so one can't sense/experience spiritual experiences? 
Well he is saying the experience is coming from the inside, not from the senses. You experience it, but it is not a result of your senses.
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
guruu said: Even still, optical illusions don't refute the validity of experience.
It shows that experience is unreliable.
The optical illusion told us that our senses about physical phenomenon can be misleading, this says nothing of the purely subjective "experience". The optical illusion has a base in the physical world to compare the qualia between people (colour of red vs wavelength for example). The mystical experience only exists in the subjective so we don't have any methods to analyze it.
-------------------- "A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security." Albert Einstein
Edited by Cannashroom (04/17/11 09:28 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Poid]
#14305254 - 04/17/11 09:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Look Mang, that tiny point of light in the sky was The Mothership and nothing you can say can make me change my mind!
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Cannashroom said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
guruu said: yes the senses are ultimately unreliable, that's why spiritual experiences are great, they go beyond the senses into a higher reality.
Ah, so one can't sense/experience spiritual experiences? 
Well he is saying the experience is coming from the inside, not from the senses.
Where inside? 
Quote:
Cannashroom said: You experience it, but it is not a result of your senses.
To experience something is the same thing as sensing it.
Quote:
Cannashroom said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
guruu said: Even still, optical illusions don't refute the validity of experience.
It shows that experience is unreliable.
The optical illusion told us that our senses about physical phenomenon can be misleading, this says nothing of the purely subjective "experience".
Senses are subjective experiences.
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Look Mang, that tiny point of light in the sky was The Mothership and nothing you can say can make me change my mind! 
Was The Mothership a MILF?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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desert father
Stranger
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Posts: 1,102
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Diploid]
#14305501 - 04/17/11 10:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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because as a human all you have is your subjective experience.
could you explain to me why anyone else's experience should matter to me? as opposed to my own?
-------------------- vi veri veniversum vivus vici What she said : "I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an Early death AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: desert father]
#14306062 - 04/17/11 12:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
desert father said: because as a human all you have is your subjective experience.
could you explain to me why anyone else's experience should matter to me? as opposed to my own?
How the hell did you get that from what he said?
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Cannashroom
Smoke two Joints



Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 2,141
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Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Poid]
#14306183 - 04/17/11 12:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Cannashroom said: You experience it, but it is not a result of your senses.
To experience something is the same thing as sensing it.
When you experience happiness, sadness, anger, guilt, etc, is that a result of the senses? Are you sensing these emotions? No, you just feel them as a result of your consciousness. Some experiences, like seeing, feeling, hearing, smelling, tasting, are the result of senses interpreting the physical world. Where other experiences are the result of consciousness interacting with the environment and itself (emotions, abstract thought, etc) and may result from things happening in the physical world, but ultimately have no physical "basis" which we can measure empirically.
"Experience" is hardly limited by the senses.
-------------------- "A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security." Albert Einstein
Edited by Cannashroom (04/17/11 12:49 PM)
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desert father
Stranger
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: MushroomTrip]
#14306191 - 04/17/11 12:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Can a True Believer splain me why they believe their "experience" is real and accurate even though the evidence says it probably isn't?
he asked that so i was trying to give an explanation as to why humans trust their own experience....because that's the only truth they have to hold onto.
-------------------- vi veri veniversum vivus vici What she said : "I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an Early death AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: desert father]
#14306249 - 04/17/11 01:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Not true. There's also scientific evidence which is more accurate than sense-experience. And there's nothing wrong with admitting that your senses can betray you and you need to double-check them.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Diploid]
#14306514 - 04/17/11 01:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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And yet, everything we know comes through experience. Ergo, knowledge is unreliable.
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