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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: g00ru] * 1
    #14303223 - 04/16/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Wow, way to address the whole post; I knew I could count on you. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Poid]
    #14304042 - 04/16/11 11:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

man i got thangs to do


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: g00ru] * 1
    #14305084 - 04/17/11 08:34 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Like making stupid posts?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Poid]
    #14305195 - 04/17/11 09:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:hamsterdance:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: g00ru]
    #14305199 - 04/17/11 09:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So yes?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Poid]
    #14305215 - 04/17/11 09:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Nah, things like being and focusing on the great inner holy "I AM."


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: NetDiver]
    #14305231 - 04/17/11 09:20 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:levitate:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Brainstem]
    #14305511 - 04/17/11 10:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Brainstem said:
Another really good question is, Have space and time always been coalescent, allowing for volume and duration to exist ?, and can they ever be separated ? Matter and energy are interchangeable, but cannot exist without space and time. Consciousness it is argued arises from the material brain, but the quality of being consciousness is something unlike anything else in known existence, at least from the perspective of the one who is conscious.

I would suggest time is a prerequisite for consciousness, and because time is space-time, space is also necessary. What do you think ?




ONLY strictly monistic materialist maintain that consciousness arises from neural processes. It is a philosophical position, not proved. Non-dualism, or philosophical Idealism are at the opposite end of a continuum. The 'mentalistic' end of the continuum bears striking parallels with what quantum physics is saying about non-locality, the particle-wavical paradox with conscious observation having an effect of photons and electrons. The physicist Wolfgang Pauli got with psychologist C.G. Jung long ago to work on a Theory of Everything, in which matter and mind, physics and psyche would be shown to parallel the particle-wavical notion in physics. Synchronicity describes a "non-causal connecting principle" which partakes of both mind and matter. Materialism is a leftover position from pre-quantum physics, 19th century thinking. It is also at loggerheads with any experiences of the Psi variety which transcend causality in space-time. Materialism as a paradigm simply does not have a place for anomalous phenomena. It's like the story about Captain Cook's expedition to Australia, where a platypus was discovered, and which did not fit into the taxonomy of the day, so they simply destroyed the notes on the creature and denied its very existence.

Consciousness is a far more essential reality than the particular human self-consciousness, out of which an incredible arrogance arises time and again. The egoic-mind continually asserts itself despite its ignorance of reality. Civil war surgeons thought it meritorious to wear gore-covered frock coats with needles and sutures kept in their lapels, showing how prolific they were. Utter ignorance that their blood and pus-spattered coats were the cause of more death than the injuries they attempted to fix. Radium watch dial painters licked their paint brushes, imbibing radium at ever lick. They all died of cancers. People are know-it-alls in their limited understanding throughout history, only to be shown later how much their denial of anything that doesn't fit in their limited and rigid conceptual frameworks amounts to simple ignorance. MRIs can reveal areas of brain arousal, but he experience of love, for example, will never be quantified by the scientific method. Only physical correlates of 'love' will be identified. Ken Wilber's Quadrant model is a brilliant instrument for illustrating the mutual interdependence of inner and outer phenomena. 'Love' belongs in the Upper Left Quadrant, neural structures belongs in the Upper Right Quadrant. Mind is integrally related to brain, but mind is not equivalent to brain. "Mind at large" (Aldous Huxley's expression) may well exist prior to the arising of organisms that manifest/resonate/transmit consciousness.

Consciousness is a transcendental reality. Indeed, formlessness preceded form. A Singularity "coalesced" from [?] as Zero-dimension, from which energy emitted, giving rise to extension, hence 1-dimension. Omni-directional emmision from a point simultaneously describes a sphere which has spatial and temporal aspects. But the formless reality from which the Singularity appeared will always remain The Mystery (which Kabbalists designate as 'Ain') because it is utterly transcendental. Only the arrogance of a pure materialist says that there is no mystery that the rational mind can't eventually comprehend. One would have to be the "Unmoved Mover" to comprehend The Mystery.

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (04/17/11 10:48 AM)

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14308872 - 04/17/11 08:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ONLY strictly monistic materialist maintain that consciousness arises from neural processes. It is a philosophical position, not proved




wouldnt that be a dualistic materialist? :confused2:

i would have thought a monistic materialist would not talk about 'consciousness' at all! what proof is there, if any, for this stuff called consciousness?

are you saying consciousness is a separate substance to matter?

Quote:

Materialism is a leftover position from pre-quantum physics, 19th century thinking.




i dont see how random events would prove consciousness exists...
Quote:


MRIs can reveal areas of brain arousal, but he experience of love, for example, will never be quantified by the scientific method. Only physical correlates of 'love' will be identified.




how do you know what love is or that you have ever experienced it? seriously, how could anyone know that this is love (especially without referring to objects of love or 'physical correlates'?)

Quote:

Mind is integrally related to brain, but mind is not equivalent to brain. "Mind at large" (Aldous Huxley's expression) may well exist prior to the arising of organisms that manifest/resonate/transmit consciousness.





what does a mind do that a brain doesnt? where is the distinction exactly?

Quote:


Consciousness is a transcendental reality.




transcends what? there is matter now, there was matter, and there probably will be matter... does this mean matter is a transcendental reality?

how is consciousness different?

Quote:


But the formless reality from which the Singularity appeared will always remain The Mystery (which Kabbalists designate as 'Ain') because it is utterly transcendental.




thats possible. but how do you know this formlessness was conscious?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: quinn]
    #14308881 - 04/17/11 08:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Don't expect him to address each of your responses individually. :satansmoking:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: NetDiver]
    #14309116 - 04/17/11 09:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Nah, things like being and focusing on the great inner holy "I AM."




when you finally see it, you're just gonna laugh :heart::peace:


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: g00ru]
    #14309404 - 04/17/11 10:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Once you see I already know what you're talking about, but have a different viewpoint, you're going to :facepalm:.

EDIT: Also, props to quinn, great post above. :thumbup:


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Edited by NetDiver (04/17/11 10:26 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: NetDiver]
    #14309429 - 04/17/11 10:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Hell, he might even :drgonz:.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: quinn]
    #14310479 - 04/18/11 04:59 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Behaviorist are good examples of monistic materialism. There is no such thing as mind, only mechanical processes.
As for the rest, all good questions. Now go realize the answers for yourself or else you'll never believe the answers. And no, the word transcendence refers to a process of including and exceeding in consciousness. The word is a verb essentially, and matter is only transcendental in that it exists, as opposed to not existing. So very 'being' suggests process. Matter is derivative of energy in this universe. Energy had a point (read Singularity) of origin. The Singularity may represent the manifestation of an Eternal Reality, and as I am mystical by nature, I like to think so. Perhaps you should read some Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, unless you're opposed to a heretic Catholic thinker (some of my favorite thinkers have been heretic Catholics :smile:):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teilhard_de_chardin


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14310501 - 04/18/11 05:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
unless you're opposed to a heretic Catholic thinker (some of my favorite thinkers have been heretic Catholics :smile:):






You certainly can't think too much and not be a heretic  under catholic doctrine.  Pretty hard to conform to an internally inconsistent belief structure with infallible decrees that nevertheless are revoked and themselves inconsistent with other infallible decrees, et cet

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: quinn]
    #14310717 - 04/18/11 07:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
Quote:

it seems strange... but thats what the universe is like, my friend. There is no point taking the grand acheivements of science as if they are the only thing that a human can think of properly. They are merely the only thing people can hope to have a proper agreement on, regarding the objects of our senses (our shared external reality).





1    i used to think this. but now i am not sure. if the senses are all we have and science gives the simplest explanation from the senses, what more could we expect to know?

Quote:


There is, fundamentally, no way to empirically observe experiences. If they didnt exist, we would expect this, and if they did exist, we would also expect this, so it does not add weight to or take weight away from the idea that consciousness exists.




2      if there is no evidence that consciousness exists then why would we think it exists any more than we think that god exists?

Quote:

Why would you say that pain is a brain state?
Because certain measured brain/body states correlate to a degree with reports of pain.





3      i would be saying there is no pain. there is only brain states.

Quote:



It does not mean that pain IS a brain state, because pain cannot be broken into components beyond its sensations, but brain states can be broken into all kinds of components, all the way down to the atoms and quanta.

All physical phenomenon can be broken down into their constituent parts. Any physical object is made of a collection of quanta, and any physical force is composed of a collection of energy vector packets (or whatever you would like to call them). this applies to all things that the scientific realist subscribes to.

But sensations cannot be broken down. You cannot break red into any parts, nor can you break green (although you can mix yellow and blue pigments to create the experience of green - this is not the same thing). You might be able to break a picture down into colours and contours but you cant break those things down further without abstracting conceptual information about the patterns that you see. For example you can conceptualise colours as mixtures of pigments or wavelengths and then break a colour up into different pigments or wavelengths, but you are not breaking the experience down. You can conceptiulise a distinct contour as a line on a plane and then break it down into smaller lines or functions, but then you are not breaking down the experience itself.






4     
can a brain state really be broken down any more than pain can? isnt every 'part' or atom of the brain state necessary for it to be that brain state?

the experience of 'redness' cannot be broken down. well experience cant be broken down at all really...

the concept of 'red' can be broken down (into shades and so on).

why would it matter when we experienced say 'redness' if it referred to the physical state of this brain and not to some vague notion of 'colour'?





1. Im not sure what you mean. Science can only tell us about things in the world, not in our minds. How do you measure a mind? You can only measure behavior.

2. The evidence for consciousness does not lie outside consciousness, in the world, so we can't empirically test for it. However some people are conscious and they know it even before they have words to describe it. As for god, it is a similar thing, but god is not (by most definitions) a pure experience, it is something inferred from by experience. All inferences can be doubted. But experiences are not inferred, they are directly felt.

3. You cannot deny that there is pain because then it makes no sense to say that pain is a brain state. You obviously think pain is something. You either think it is an experience or a brain state or both.

4. A brain state can be broken into atoms and such. But pain cannot be broken down into billions of pieces, it can only be broken down to some sensations, perhaps being felt in a few general areas.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14310897 - 04/18/11 08:32 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


1. Im not sure what you mean. Science can only tell us about things in the world, not in our minds. How do you measure a mind? You can only measure behavior.

2. The evidence for consciousness does not lie outside consciousness, in the world, so we can't empirically test for it. However some people are conscious and they know it even before they have words to describe it. As for god, it is a similar thing, but god is not (by most definitions) a pure experience, it is something inferred from by experience. All inferences can be doubted. But experiences are not inferred, they are directly felt.

3. You cannot deny that there is pain because then it makes no sense to say that pain is a brain state. You obviously think pain is something. You either think it is an experience or a brain state or both.

4. A brain state can be broken into atoms and such. But pain cannot be broken down into billions of pieces, it can only be broken down to some sensations, perhaps being felt in a few general areas.





i am trying to view this whole thing from a linguistic perspective. so think of it like this. when you are born you do not know what pain or consciousness is. you learn these things by people saying
'oh that must have hurt'
or
'he was conscious of it but he decided to do something else'

you learn to associate certain situations and experiences with these words. and it intuitively seems correct.

but maybe it is a mistake to claim that the experiences actually are these words.

it seems like the words actually refer to some 'thing' or 'substance' that is seperate from material reality.


if you learnt to say instead of 'i am in pain' rather 'i am in brainstate X', what really would the difference be? why shouldn't this be what that experience actually means? what does pain tell us that brainstates don't?


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: quinn]
    #14311046 - 04/18/11 09:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

the brainstate doesnt tell you what it feels like. pretty simple man.

start reminiscent rant:

I had an idea of consciousness before I understood what consciousness was. I just thought of it as reality, as in the reality of my mind. I used to push my hands into my eyes and knew that i was seeing things that werent there in the world.

By that point i understood the word 'mind' meant what was 'in my head'.. but i was troubled. I thought I had realised what the 'soul' that religious people talked about was.
as an adolescent i came to learn that the mind was 'caused by chemicals in the brain', and billions of neurons. It fascinated me that my experience of reality could be a computer program. I figured it must be something like the new Nintendo 64 computer that showed 3d images. But this still was a problem because in the case of the nintendo, I am looking at it. But who is looking at the mind in my head?

I just figured that the scientists were right and that Id work it out eventually. I developed strong ideas around how it would be possible for the mind to experience a reality from brain computation. At each step I thought I would learn the secret when I learned more about the brain or physics.

But it never got anywhere past models that showed what was going on in the brain, never any explination of how that becomes experience. Just more and more complex computer.

So I went past the usual idea that computers, if complex enough, would become conscious. But this raises big problems that many people find hard to articulate. At what point is complexity enough to become conscious?
At what point in human evolution did humans become conscious? I had heard many times that consciousness was a result of evolution but it made no sense that monkeys/apes (its really insignificant.. lets just call them premonkeys) were unconscious and then just one day one of them became conscious. Especially since each new generation is trivially different to the previous one (though changes add up over multiple generations).

So then I came to think that animals were conscious too, but conscious of less information. Less experiences. Whereas humans experience their senses, feelings, they also experience themselves having thoughts, and can (to differing degrees) sense patterns in their own thinking. Other animals seemed to only have senses, feelings, and perhaps some thoughts.

So then I thought that animals had consciousness of just the simple sort like colours, smell, touch, sound.. but no ability to stop and think about these things like humans do. This was easier to deal with than a sudden consciousness popping into existance - rather, each new animal was able to sense slightly different qualities.

It is still bizarre how something like a colour could evolve, a problem I still have. Eg. When the colour red evolved, was it red or blue that entered the world? or green? which colour was added to the spectrum? All that really changed was that the eyes had a new receptor type that could detect more differences in wavelengths. Then brain changes followed. But which of them determined the quality of the new colour?

Anyway, the evolution problem extends just like the computation problem to the question of: how much complexity is required for an actual experience to occur rather than a pattern of quantum particles existing in a physical 'reality'?

Is my calculator having experience? why? is a single neuron having experience? or only when connected to many other neurons will an experience occur, and what is having the experience? the neurons, or the universe in general?

Is a single atom having experience?

Is a single celled organism (bacteria? protozoa?) experiencing anything?

What abuot levels of experience? can a single atom have its own experience while a cell, a complex arrangement, have its own experience? Can a brain also have its own experience even though its parts have their own experiences, seperate to its holistic experience?

This raises deeper (and simultaneously shallow) questions such as: are groups of animals having their own experiences? Is Earth having experiences? How connected must the parts be in order to allow experience?

When we cut the brain in two, does one half of the brain keep experiencing or do both halfs have their own experiences? Or is there still one experience filled with conflicting thoughts and abilities?

//end rant //


yadi yadi ya, it all gets very cloudy and these questions are fundamentally unanswerable. Only the experiencer that is self reflective can say whether it is experiencing anything, and only human beings, so far, have exhibited the ability to actually report an experience of having experiences at all. AND EVEN THEN, they have no ability to prove this to anyone else but themselves.


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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14311229 - 04/18/11 10:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

nor does 'pain'...

anyway i wont pretend to have a proper grasp of the whole debate cos i dont. i based most of my questions from richard rortys 'philosophy & the mirror of nature' (which i read the first few chapters a while ago and dont remember it very well :tongue:)

but basically he looks at history and the development of the concept of the 'mind' from descartes thru to kant and then thru to analytic philosophy... he also proposes a hypothetical about an alien race who only use physical terms to describe the world... pretty interesting stuff!

& i would only do a poor job at paraphrasing him so yeh... u should check it out. :shrug:


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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: quinn]
    #14311288 - 04/18/11 10:34 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

the word pain does tell you what pain feels like if you use the word to indicate your own pain. but only you can know that meaning


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