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InvisibleWhiteydr
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Why doing nothing is so destructive...
    #14304414 - 04/17/11 03:52 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

I don't want to get into a moral argument, but let's assume there is a right and a wrong.  Somewhere in between would be he/her who is selfishly living his/her life without the thought of helping or harming another.  This would seem to be a sort of moral neutrality, apparently not giving or taking.  Beyond the surface, however, when looking at the connectivity of all life, one can see how much the "morally neutral" is actually taking.  Every calorie burnt in order to further his/her own agenda comes from other life: plants, animals, and fungi.  These life forms, if not consumed by the "morally neutral", could be aiding the life of others, whether they be human or other life forms.  What is used by one who does nothing, could be used by one who does something (some greater good).  Then again, these life forms (or resources as we've come to call them) could also be used by one who commits acts of evil.  Unfortunately, today's society shows that the latter is the most likely.  That being said, this is not a post to elaborate on how greater good would come to be without the "morally neutral", but rather to elaborate on whether or not these "morally neutral" are in fact morally bad.

It's hard to perceive at first without looking at the giving aspect of nature.  It is true that all creatures must take, but humans are the only one not require or even expected to give.  While plants take sunlight, water and minerals from the soil, and the animals that feed on the plants give their life to the predators, and the predators give their life back to the soil, we human bury our bodies in preservation (using coffin "resources" in the process) or incinerate our bodies to ash (using fuel in the process).  This does not apply to every one's funeral arrangements, but rather most.  For most people, we take all our lives and refuse to give back even in our death.

This is a brief preview as to why I've come to the conclusion that there are no "morally neutral".  I see people rather as those who give more than they take (morally good) and those who take more than they give (morally bad).  It may seem rather impossible to give more than you take, and in today's society it is (which is why I do not claim to be morally good, yet).  It appears to me that being morally good can only be achieved with a consistent caregiver attitude toward that which sustains your own life.  This could be achieved by harvesting food which grows abundant in a particular area, harvesting food that is weak to strengthen that which survives (berries without enough sunlight or the oldest deer of the herd), and providing a better living environment in which your sustainable harvest grows.  This is a way of life completely lost and unknown to us in this day and age.

After this realization, it became clear why our lifestyle seems to be plagued by selfish egoism.  Yet is seems hard to point any fingers when we've been conditioned since birth to take without giving.

Please post your thoughts on the matter.  I'm not trying to criticize anyone's lifestyle, only give a different perspective.


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Offlinesickofit
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: Whiteydr]
    #14304452 - 04/17/11 04:06 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)



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InvisibleWhiteydr
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: sickofit]
    #14304467 - 04/17/11 04:14 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

I seems interesting that one would try to scientifically explain morality.  I myself believe there is a creator (non-religious), but I'll still have to check this book out.  Thanks for the link!


Edited by Whiteydr (04/17/11 04:14 AM)


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Offlinesickofit
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: Whiteydr]
    #14304480 - 04/17/11 04:20 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Yeah for sure. My bias (even though theres no argument) is "sub-atomic conspiracy". My English teacher in high school show'd me that book and I skimmed it and this reminded me so I thought I'd share :laugh:


--------------------
A Resource on Psi, Science, and Philosophy
The Taboo of Psi
Trade/Want List
Mechanisms and reactions
Is ____ down, or is it just me?
You know, its against the rules to discuss/trade research chemical sources on the board, oh hey look,a "contact user" button, isn't this site the greatest!
Done(In order):
Nicotine, THC, Psilocybin (Cubes,P. Cyans,Pan. Cinctulus), MDMA, LSD, 2C-E, Methampetamine, Lost track of how many JWH's, MDA, Nitrous Oxide, 2C-I, Cocaine, Ketamine, TMA-6, 2C-B, DOC, DXM, 4-MMC, MDAI, MDAT, MDPV, butylone, pentedrone, MXE, 25i, 25c, 25b, hydromorphone, 2 and 4-FA, 2 and 4 FMA, 6-apb, DMT


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: sickofit]
    #14304483 - 04/17/11 04:22 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

The predator routinely singles out a weak member of the pack to kill. It is easier and less risky for the predator to go after a sick or old member of the pack.  In this way the predator is strengthened while at the same time the pack is actually strengthened.  To wait for the straggler is not nature's way.  Birds feed the biggest baby and if food is scarce the smallest may not get any food at all.  Worse, maybe mom pecks the young bird's eyes out. 

Your view of the kindness of nature seems distorted.  If anything humans will protect the weak members of the group because they have empathy and compassion that most animals lack.  This hurts the humans as a species because ultimately if the weak and sick reproduce their genes are passed on to make the gene pool weaker.  So if anything if we were truly moral and looking out for the strength of our species we would embrace eugenics and forced sterilization of the weak links among us.  Or if nothing else just peck their eyes out.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinesickofit
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14304495 - 04/17/11 04:27 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Karma is an axiom, isn't it <3
May humans reach the stars


--------------------
A Resource on Psi, Science, and Philosophy
The Taboo of Psi
Trade/Want List
Mechanisms and reactions
Is ____ down, or is it just me?
You know, its against the rules to discuss/trade research chemical sources on the board, oh hey look,a "contact user" button, isn't this site the greatest!
Done(In order):
Nicotine, THC, Psilocybin (Cubes,P. Cyans,Pan. Cinctulus), MDMA, LSD, 2C-E, Methampetamine, Lost track of how many JWH's, MDA, Nitrous Oxide, 2C-I, Cocaine, Ketamine, TMA-6, 2C-B, DOC, DXM, 4-MMC, MDAI, MDAT, MDPV, butylone, pentedrone, MXE, 25i, 25c, 25b, hydromorphone, 2 and 4-FA, 2 and 4 FMA, 6-apb, DMT


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InvisibleWhiteydr
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14304507 - 04/17/11 04:36 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
The predator routinely singles out a weak member of the pack to kill. It is easier and less risky for the predator to go after a sick or old member of the pack.  In this way the predator is strengthened while at the same time the pack is actually strengthened.  To wait for the straggler is not nature's way.  Birds feed the biggest baby and if food is scarce the smallest may not get any food at all.  Worse, maybe mom pecks the young bird's eyes out.




Predators go after the weak AND old, at least from what I've seen.  You also seem to contradict yourself on "to wait for the straggler is not nature's way".  How is that not strengthening the heard?  Is the straggler not of a weak mind, still able to reproduce?  I guess it depends on the predator.

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Your view of the kindness of nature seems distorted.  If anything humans will protect the weak members of the group because they have empathy and compassion that most animals lack.  This hurts the humans as a species because ultimately if the weak and sick reproduce their genes are passed on to make the gene pool weaker.  So if anything if we were truly moral and looking out for the strength of our species we would embrace eugenics and forced sterilization of the weak links among us.  Or if nothing else just peck their eyes out.




"Embrace Eugenics?"  Please don't tell me we have a Nazi in the house.  And what kind of despot would decide who are the weak links?


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InvisibleBlondell_Letrange
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: Whiteydr]
    #14304564 - 04/17/11 05:06 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

It's hard to perceive at first without looking at the giving aspect of nature.  It is true that all creatures must take, but humans are the only one not require or even expected to give.  While plants take sunlight, water and minerals from the soil, and the animals that feed on the plants give their life to the predators, and the predators give their life back to the soil, we human bury our bodies in preservation (using coffin "resources" in the process) or incinerate our bodies to ash (using fuel in the process).  This does not apply to every one's funeral arrangements, but rather most.  For most people, we take all our lives and refuse to give back even in our death.




This section sounds remarkably similar to purpose, rather than adaptation (on the part of plants and other animals). Why would we (lifeforms) be required, and who or what is expecting it?

Yeah, we do funky shit with corpses. Blame our mutantly large forebrain.

Quote:

"Embrace Eugenics?"  Please don't tell me we have a Nazi in the house.  And what kind of despot would decide who are the weak links?




Oh God-wins law, this was a quick round.


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:inlove3::inlove3:


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InvisibleWhiteydr
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: Blondell_Letrange]
    #14304586 - 04/17/11 05:22 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Blondell_Letrange said: Why would we (lifeforms) be required, and who or what is expecting it?




I believe it is our purpose.  Don't knock it until you've tried it.  Fulfillment through purpose is fulfillment beyond any sex, drug, or other indulgence.


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InvisibleBlondell_Letrange
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: Whiteydr]
    #14304593 - 04/17/11 05:28 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Whiteydr said:
Quote:

Blondell_Letrange said: Why would we (lifeforms) be required, and who or what is expecting it?




I believe it is our purpose.  Don't knock it until you've tried it.  Fulfillment through purpose is fulfillment beyond any sex, drug, or other indulgence.




What exactly am I trying?

And...Are you absolutely sure I haven't (tried it.)

:lol:


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InvisibleWhiteydr
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: Blondell_Letrange]
    #14305644 - 04/17/11 01:10 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Blondell_Letrange said: What exactly am I trying?

And...Are you absolutely sure I haven't (tried it.)

:lol:





If you had you wouldn't be asking.  By "it" I was referring to giving more than taking, reaching a spiritual connectivity, and ultimetely fulfilling purpose.  As stated earlier, I don't believe this can be done within the confines of modern society.  We can experience it, however, with extended stays in the wilderness by yourself or with liked-minded individuals.  When I say "can" experience it, does not imply we WILL experience it.

Some great books on the subject include:
-Walden (Henry David Thoreau)
-Anything by Ralph Waldo Emerson
-Rural Hours (Susan Fenimore Cooper)


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Offlinedesert father
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: Whiteydr]
    #14305795 - 04/17/11 01:42 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

And what kind of despot would decide who are the weak links?

obama and his science advisor? :shrug:

http://zombietime.com/john_holdren/


--------------------
vi veri veniversum vivus vici

What she said :
"I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an
Early death
AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"


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InvisibleWhiteydr
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: desert father]
    #14305957 - 04/17/11 02:13 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

^ Tell me about it!


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: Whiteydr]
    #14307280 - 04/17/11 06:04 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Some great books on the subject include:
-Walden (Henry David Thoreau)





You rail against doing nothing then point to Thoreau in Walden. Very ironic.

Please give an example of a purely selfless act.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: Whiteydr]
    #14307311 - 04/17/11 06:09 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Whiteydr said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
The predator routinely singles out a weak member of the pack to kill. It is easier and less risky for the predator to go after a sick or old member of the pack.  In this way the predator is strengthened while at the same time the pack is actually strengthened.  To wait for the straggler is not nature's way.  Birds feed the biggest baby and if food is scarce the smallest may not get any food at all.  Worse, maybe mom pecks the young bird's eyes out.




Predators go after the weak AND old, at least from what I've seen.  You also seem to contradict yourself on "to wait for the straggler is not nature's way".  How is that not strengthening the heard?  Is the straggler not of a weak mind, still able to reproduce?  I guess it depends on the predator.

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Your view of the kindness of nature seems distorted.  If anything humans will protect the weak members of the group because they have empathy and compassion that most animals lack.  This hurts the humans as a species because ultimately if the weak and sick reproduce their genes are passed on to make the gene pool weaker.  So if anything if we were truly moral and looking out for the strength of our species we would embrace eugenics and forced sterilization of the weak links among us.  Or if nothing else just peck their eyes out.




"Embrace Eugenics?"  Please don't tell me we have a Nazi in the house.  And what kind of despot would decide who are the weak links?




Well as we are discussing just how horrible human beings are relative to the utopia of nature I just wanted to reinforce your position since you weren't.


--------------------
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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14307318 - 04/17/11 06:10 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Donating to charities I would call relatively selfless.

You can claim people donate because it gives them satisfaction, but isn't satisfaction gained from helping others at a cost to yourself selfless?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: NetDiver]
    #14307335 - 04/17/11 06:14 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

No. Gaining personal satisfaction is not selfless. Try again.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14308537 - 04/17/11 10:03 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

But if you gain satisfaction from helping others at your own material cost, then you are deriving pleasure from an action that reduces your survival potential. The fact that you gain satisfaction from it just means you enjoy being selfless.


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InvisibleWhiteydr
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: NetDiver]
    #14309464 - 04/18/11 12:32 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion  said:
Please give an example of a purely selfless act.





Trick question!!!  No selfless acts can be made if the proper intentions are not there.  In the extremely rare event that egoism is set aside, looked beyond, or used solely for the benefit of another, then and only then can a purely selfless act be made.  Even eating to these almost theoretical non-egotistic people would become a selfless act, as his/her intentions and purpose would be only for the benefit of another.  I don't think the average person can commit a purely selfless act without years of training or isolation to break away from their societal conditioning.



Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
But if you gain satisfaction from helping others at your own material cost, then you are deriving pleasure from an action that reduces your survival potential. The fact that you gain satisfaction from it just means you enjoy being selfless.




The question lies on where the true intention is.  If we are egotistic (which we almost always are), then our intention or our reason to "help" is for the satisfaction within ourselves and not for the benefit of another.  Tapping into your subconscious on a conscious level to see your true intention can be tricky and often distorted by logical thought.  Carl Gustav Jung is a great psychologist on the subject.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why doing nothing is so destructive... [Re: Whiteydr]
    #14309649 - 04/18/11 01:19 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

There was nothing tricky about my question. Your answer OTH was a standard dodge. I call that being disingenuous. :thumbdown:


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