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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Why "Experience" Is Unreliable 1
#14302598 - 04/16/11 06:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The top and the bottom of the gray area in this pic are exactly the same shade of gray:

Now click here to see the gray area cropped and masked so the parts of the image that mislead your visual neurology are missing.
This effect happens because the human visual system has a built in unsharp mask to improve detail in human sight. Most of the time it helps us, but sometimes it misleads us.
This is one reason eyewitnesses are known to be extremely unreliable. Lawyers and judges are trained to treat eyewitnesses in court carefully to minimize the known problems with eyewitness testimony. These biases have been demonstrated by a hundred years of psychological experiments.
So why is it that, despite the unreliability of "experience", so many people put so much stock in their mystical experiences?
Can a True Believer splain me why they believe their "experience" is real and accurate even though the evidence says it probably isn't?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Diploid]
#14302614 - 04/16/11 06:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Another reason why experience is unreliable: my avatar and question above it.
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Brainstem
_@_y



Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Diploid]
#14302707 - 04/16/11 06:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Life itself is a mystical experience.
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jivJaN
yes


Registered: 08/09/08
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Diploid]
#14302798 - 04/16/11 07:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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When i cover everything but the gray parts i see how they are the same shade , but the upper part of the lower shape is highlighted.
--------------------
--------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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Brainstem
_@_y



Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Diploid]
#14302833 - 04/16/11 07:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's more of an optical illusion, and something which is engineered to trick the eye. Not all is experience is so devious.
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Cannashroom
Smoke two Joints



Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 2,141
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Brainstem]
#14302856 - 04/16/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The mystical experience seems to have no base in our physical world. You can't bring it down to the wavelength of light (or brightness) like you can in the optical illusion. It is not like one of our other senses trying to interpret the immediate world for survival. It is just consciousness experiencing itself, without the other physical senses. In my opinion, it is the experience of having consciousness without the senses distracting you with the reality of the physical world. You are experiences just being and this is a divine feeling without the immediate suffering of the physical world to distract you.
Without your ego to reinforce your separation from the physical world, and without your senses to give you a anchoring location in the physical world you are just experiencing consciousness. There is nothing to compare this with in the physical world, so the only thing one will ever have is their own experience. Either you put faith in your experience and try and take from it what you can, or you disregard it.
-------------------- "A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security." Albert Einstein
Edited by Cannashroom (04/16/11 07:28 PM)
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Brainstem
_@_y



Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Cannashroom]
#14302861 - 04/16/11 07:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Pour example,
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Diploid]
#14304142 - 04/17/11 12:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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yes the senses are ultimately unreliable, that's why spiritual experiences are great, they go beyond the senses into a higher reality. Even still, optical illusions don't refute the validity of experience. I mean, you trust your experience, do you not? Or are you just in a constant state of doubt that anything is real? That would actually be a high contemplation, as long as you brought it inwards towards the identity and didn't just leave it at sensory reality. But something tells me you treat the physical world as if it's a concrete reality and aren't constantly on the lookout for illusions.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable *DELETED* [Re: g00ru]
#14304237 - 04/17/11 12:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by the bizzleReason for deletion: fuck it
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: the bizzle]
#14304252 - 04/17/11 01:01 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL "True believer"
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: g00ru]
#14305105 - 04/17/11 08:43 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said: yes the senses are ultimately unreliable, that's why spiritual experiences are great, they go beyond the senses into a higher reality.
Ah, so one can't sense/experience spiritual experiences? 
Quote:
guruu said: Even still, optical illusions don't refute the validity of experience.
It shows that experience is unreliable.
Quote:
guruu said: I mean, you trust your experience, do you not? Or are you just in a constant state of doubt that anything is real?
One can put a certain amount of trust in their experience and still be aware that it is somewhat unreliable.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Cannashroom
Smoke two Joints



Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 2,141
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Poid]
#14305244 - 04/17/11 09:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
guruu said: yes the senses are ultimately unreliable, that's why spiritual experiences are great, they go beyond the senses into a higher reality.
Ah, so one can't sense/experience spiritual experiences? 
Well he is saying the experience is coming from the inside, not from the senses. You experience it, but it is not a result of your senses.
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
guruu said: Even still, optical illusions don't refute the validity of experience.
It shows that experience is unreliable.
The optical illusion told us that our senses about physical phenomenon can be misleading, this says nothing of the purely subjective "experience". The optical illusion has a base in the physical world to compare the qualia between people (colour of red vs wavelength for example). The mystical experience only exists in the subjective so we don't have any methods to analyze it.
-------------------- "A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security." Albert Einstein
Edited by Cannashroom (04/17/11 09:28 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Poid]
#14305254 - 04/17/11 09:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Look Mang, that tiny point of light in the sky was The Mothership and nothing you can say can make me change my mind!
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Cannashroom said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
guruu said: yes the senses are ultimately unreliable, that's why spiritual experiences are great, they go beyond the senses into a higher reality.
Ah, so one can't sense/experience spiritual experiences? 
Well he is saying the experience is coming from the inside, not from the senses.
Where inside? 
Quote:
Cannashroom said: You experience it, but it is not a result of your senses.
To experience something is the same thing as sensing it.
Quote:
Cannashroom said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
guruu said: Even still, optical illusions don't refute the validity of experience.
It shows that experience is unreliable.
The optical illusion told us that our senses about physical phenomenon can be misleading, this says nothing of the purely subjective "experience".
Senses are subjective experiences.
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Look Mang, that tiny point of light in the sky was The Mothership and nothing you can say can make me change my mind! 
Was The Mothership a MILF?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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desert father
Stranger
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Diploid]
#14305501 - 04/17/11 10:33 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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because as a human all you have is your subjective experience.
could you explain to me why anyone else's experience should matter to me? as opposed to my own?
-------------------- vi veri veniversum vivus vici What she said : "I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an Early death AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
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Quote:
desert father said: because as a human all you have is your subjective experience.
could you explain to me why anyone else's experience should matter to me? as opposed to my own?
How the hell did you get that from what he said?
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Cannashroom
Smoke two Joints



Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 2,141
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Poid]
#14306183 - 04/17/11 12:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Cannashroom said: You experience it, but it is not a result of your senses.
To experience something is the same thing as sensing it.
When you experience happiness, sadness, anger, guilt, etc, is that a result of the senses? Are you sensing these emotions? No, you just feel them as a result of your consciousness. Some experiences, like seeing, feeling, hearing, smelling, tasting, are the result of senses interpreting the physical world. Where other experiences are the result of consciousness interacting with the environment and itself (emotions, abstract thought, etc) and may result from things happening in the physical world, but ultimately have no physical "basis" which we can measure empirically.
"Experience" is hardly limited by the senses.
-------------------- "A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security." Albert Einstein
Edited by Cannashroom (04/17/11 12:49 PM)
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desert father
Stranger
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: MushroomTrip]
#14306191 - 04/17/11 12:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Can a True Believer splain me why they believe their "experience" is real and accurate even though the evidence says it probably isn't?
he asked that so i was trying to give an explanation as to why humans trust their own experience....because that's the only truth they have to hold onto.
-------------------- vi veri veniversum vivus vici What she said : "I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an Early death AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Not true. There's also scientific evidence which is more accurate than sense-experience. And there's nothing wrong with admitting that your senses can betray you and you need to double-check them.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Diploid]
#14306514 - 04/17/11 01:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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And yet, everything we know comes through experience. Ergo, knowledge is unreliable.
--------------------
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Quote:
desert father said: Can a True Believer splain me why they believe their "experience" is real and accurate even though the evidence says it probably isn't?
he asked that so i was trying to give an explanation as to why humans trust their own experience....because that's the only truth they have to hold onto.
Some 10,000 people who saw The Phoenix Lights swore by their own experience that they were seeing other-worldy UFOs. Turned out to be military flares.
100 years ago some 10,000 people in Portugal swore they saw The Virgin Mary when they witnessed some atmospheric disturbance. There was no woman in the sky. Nor could anyone tell what this non-woman's name was; nor the state of her hymen.
--------------------
Edited by OrgoneConclusion (04/17/11 05:57 PM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Cannashroom]
#14307908 - 04/17/11 05:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cannashroom said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Cannashroom said: You experience it, but it is not a result of your senses.
To experience something is the same thing as sensing it.
When you experience happiness, sadness, anger, guilt, etc, is that a result of the senses? Are you sensing these emotions? No, you just feel them as a result of your consciousness.
Feeling and sensing are the same thing--what is this, pre-preschool shit?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Simms
Fuckwit


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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Diploid]
#14307936 - 04/17/11 05:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: The top and the bottom of the gray area in this pic are exactly the same shade of gray:

Now click here to see the gray area cropped and masked so the parts of the image that mislead your visual neurology are missing.
This effect happens because the human visual system has a built in unsharp mask to improve detail in human sight. Most of the time it helps us, but sometimes it misleads us.
This is one reason eyewitnesses are known to be extremely unreliable. Lawyers and judges are trained to treat eyewitnesses in court carefully to minimize the known problems with eyewitness testimony. These biases have been demonstrated by a hundred years of psychological experiments.
So why is it that, despite the unreliability of "experience", so many people put so much stock in their mystical experiences?
Can a True Believer splain me why they believe their "experience" is real and accurate even though the evidence says it probably isn't?
Randis debunking arena is also an experience. 
What if our whole mind is distorting reality for the sake of making simpler thought processes?
--------------------
Edited by Simms (04/17/11 05:58 PM)
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Simms]
#14308410 - 04/17/11 07:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Can a True Believer splain me why they believe their "experience" is real and accurate even though the evidence says it probably isn't? "
Experience is what it is. What we take from it is what we take from it. Experience comes from the exact process(es?) of reality that science studies and tries to grasp. In that sense, it is completely real, and everything about it is completely natural. That doesn't mean that people are infallible.
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable *DELETED* [Re: xFrockx]
#14308626 - 04/17/11 08:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by the bizzleReason for deletion: meh
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: the bizzle]
#14308699 - 04/17/11 08:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
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Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: the bizzle]
#14308700 - 04/17/11 08:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Experience is only an unreliable indicator of what you might experience in the future.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: NetDiver]
#14308723 - 04/17/11 08:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: Experience is only an unreliable indicator of what you might experience in the future.
Exactly. How do you verify an experience? You try to experience the same thing in a different way. The more perspectives from which you can experience something, the more you can verify it. In the picture Diploid posted, how you verify that the two boxes have the same shade of grey? You might block out all the other stuff, or you might open it in Photoshop and use the color picking tool. These are all experiences.
--------------------
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


Registered: 10/05/08
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Silversoul]
#14310752 - 04/18/11 07:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: Experience is only an unreliable indicator of what you might experience in the future.
Exactly. How do you verify an experience? You try to experience the same thing in a different way. The more perspectives from which you can experience something, the more you can verify it. In the picture Diploid posted, how you verify that the two boxes have the same shade of grey? You might block out all the other stuff, or you might open it in Photoshop and use the color picking tool. These are all experiences.
actually they looked the same to me... and still do.
However, when I tried to work out what the illusion was all about, and read the post again, and looked at the picture some more, the top grey area started to look darker.
What does this mean? if anything?
--------------------

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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: Cannashroom]
#14311938 - 04/18/11 01:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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There's an awful lot of claims being made about "experience" and its nature, but very little in the wway of clarity and philosophical justification for whatever the particular claims are.
How 'experience' is different from any thing else, how conclusions which are claimed to be based upon experience are special/ particularly reliable/accurate/whatever, how conclusions of the nature, qualities of an experience are particularly worthwhile/accurate/whatever... none of these things seem to be philosophically, logically, explained.
Can we stop with the bare claims here? Its obvious that people do not accept the things that are being stated and do not understand them, and if it wasn't despite the questions, let my post serve as evidence of such now.
What are the claims people have made in this thread based on? Is this magic-forum garbage or is there a justification for the claims that could be shared?
Quote:
Cannashroom said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Cannashroom said: You experience it, but it is not a result of your senses.
To experience something is the same thing as sensing it.
When you experience happiness, sadness, anger, guilt, etc, is that a result of the senses? Are you sensing these emotions? No, you just feel them as a result of your consciousness.
Please justify your claims.
Your claims seem to be pretty fairly contrary to the definitions of the word "sense", so I'm wondering what you are exactly saying? What is the nature and term for the system that allows you to recieve information from your environment other than your senses?
What is the term and nature of the manner in which you are affected by emotion but through your senses? What is the justification you have in claiming the sensory system is dispartate from whatever it is your claiming exists as a seperate entity and has such charecteristics as you allege above?
Please back up the rest of the claims you've made as well. I don't believe you've provided any reason to believe any of it.
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: johnm214]
#14312305 - 04/18/11 02:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: How 'experience' is different from any thing else, how conclusions which are claimed to be based upon experience are special/ particularly reliable/accurate/whatever, how conclusions of the nature, qualities of an experience are particularly worthwhile/accurate/whatever... none of these things seem to be philosophically, logically, explained.
The qualities of experience, as such, precede language, so our ability to define them logically is limited. By "experience" I refer to qualia, or the mode of perceptual filtering that allows one thing to be distinguished from another (i.e. how do I know I'm looking at blue rather than red? They just look different, I can't really explain how). Qualia are, of course, associated with brain states- I would say, of course, they are brain states- but we can talk about the phenomenal differences between experiences without referencing the physiological portions.
Quote:
Can we stop with the bare claims here? Its obvious that people do not accept the things that are being stated and do not understand them, and if it wasn't despite the questions, let my post serve as evidence of such now.
What are the claims people have made in this thread based on? Is this magic-forum garbage or is there a justification for the claims that could be shared?
My justification for my earlier claim (i.e. experience is only an unreliable indicator of what you will experience in the future) is as follows:
Experiences are not right or wrong by themselves. Say, for instance, I think that I've seen a ghost (experience A). I saw what I saw, the various phenomenal qualities (colors, sights, sounds, etc) are what constitute experience A. They are neither correct, nor incorrect. Then, my interpretations of the experience follow (i.e. "I saw a ghost," or "there's probably a rational explanation.") But, really, those interpretations are experiences themselves, with their own phenomenal content. So experience A triggers experiences B and C, which are interpretations.
If B is correct, then I can possibly expect to see more ghosts in the future. Suddenly my whole world-view (of the experiences I can expect to have at future time) is changed, because I believe in ghosts. If I walk into a dark house, I might experience fear out of anticipation of seeing a ghost, because I believe they exist as a result of experience A (and the subsequent interpretation experience B).
But, of course, there may have been another explanation for what I saw. Say I discover a bunch of smoke and mirrors that conjured up the image of a ghost- this, again, is a qualitative experience, with its own phenomenal content (i.e. the sights of the mirror and smoke machines, etc). Now, that doesn't change the phenomenal content of Experience A- it doesn't change the experience I had before. It only changes my interpretation of the event, and my expectations of what I can experience in the future.
Therefore, it wasn't that experience A was unreliable in and of itself, in any way- it was my interpretation that influenced my world-view, in a way that gave me unreliable expectations for the future (i.e. if I enter a dark house I might see a ghost because ghosts exist).
The conclusion of this would be that if you make no judgements about your experiences, it is impossible to be deceived. Experience is not unreliable, it's your interpretations of experiences that give you inaccurate assumptions about the future. If no interpretations are made, no assumptions are made, and therefore they can not be incorrect.
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Cannashroom
Smoke two Joints



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Re: Why "Experience" Is Unreliable [Re: johnm214]
#14312885 - 04/18/11 03:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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johnm214 said: There's an awful lot of claims being made about "experience" and its nature, but very little in the wway of clarity and philosophical justification for whatever the particular claims are.
How 'experience' is different from any thing else, how conclusions which are claimed to be based upon experience are special/ particularly reliable/accurate/whatever, how conclusions of the nature, qualities of an experience are particularly worthwhile/accurate/whatever... none of these things seem to be philosophically, logically, explained.
Can we stop with the bare claims here? Its obvious that people do not accept the things that are being stated and do not understand them, and if it wasn't despite the questions, let my post serve as evidence of such now.
What are the claims people have made in this thread based on? Is this magic-forum garbage or is there a justification for the claims that could be shared?
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Cannashroom said:
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Poid said:
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Cannashroom said: You experience it, but it is not a result of your senses.
To experience something is the same thing as sensing it.
When you experience happiness, sadness, anger, guilt, etc, is that a result of the senses? Are you sensing these emotions? No, you just feel them as a result of your consciousness.
Please justify your claims.
Your claims seem to be pretty fairly contrary to the definitions of the word "sense", so I'm wondering what you are exactly saying? What is the nature and term for the system that allows you to recieve information from your environment other than your senses?
What is the term and nature of the manner in which you are affected by emotion but through your senses? What is the justification you have in claiming the sensory system is dispartate from whatever it is your claiming exists as a seperate entity and has such charecteristics as you allege above?
Please back up the rest of the claims you've made as well. I don't believe you've provided any reason to believe any of it.
When you read a book, and there is a great passage which gives you a response from your autonomic nervous system ("shivers" coming from a dopamine rush) is that a result of your sight? If someone read it aloud does it become a result of your hearing? If by braille is touch? Yes, our emotion comes from the interpretation of physical reality, but as with the literature example, this comes from an interaction with your consciousness and mental constructs more so than the purely physical stimuli of the words/sounds/braille. If you were to not understand them, these same stimuli would be meaningless. The emotion is the result of the interaction between the senses and consciousness. Your experience is the interaction between consciousness and the environment via the senses.
Now, the point I was trying to make, is that in a state such as ego death, you have a complete disconnect from your senses. Your experience becomes completely separated from the what we see as physical reality. So in these states the "experience" is not a result of senses and consciousness together, but just your consciousness experiencing itself without the distraction of the physical world. Without the constant nagging of the here and now, your brain is free to explore its own reaches, and oh how good does that liberation feel.
I never said that these experiences are infallible or some shit. I was merely pointing out that the mystical experience seems (for me at least) to not be a result of interpreting physical stimuli around you, but something more connected to the consciousness itself. And, from this point of view, I would say that trying to validate these experiences is useless when we understand so little of how they are arising. So, either you accept your experience or you don't. We don't really have any way to validate the subjective experiences between people.
-------------------- "A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security." Albert Einstein
Edited by Cannashroom (04/18/11 03:29 PM)
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