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OfflineFronnis
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: NetDiver]
    #14296101 - 04/15/11 03:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The guy I mentioned on my previous post attempts to prove himself with any way to prove. He also opens himself to any suggestion I believe.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14296222 - 04/15/11 03:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Real traditional Qi practitioners aren't allowed to show off their abilities in public




So either you heard/read this second-hand

or

A 'real Master showed off his abilities to you.

Which is it?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14296522 - 04/15/11 04:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

meatcakeman said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Videos constitute probably the worst kind of "evidence" imaginable. It's ridiculously easy to fake things on camera.

If doing things with chi really is possible, why hasn't someone demonstrated it under conditions that should satisfy anyone? Why hasn't it been performed successfully on a skeptic? The only response I ever hear to these questions is just a bunch of excuses. Drop the excuses and show some evidence, or there's nothing to your belief.




why do they have to prove themselves? you, as a skeptic, are of ZERO importance to these people. if you truly wish to discern the reality of the matter, you need to seek out answers yourself instead of assuming that you deserve to have answers hand-fed to you. go to China. become a disciple. until then, this is really just a pointless conversation.





Why?  I hear you say it, but I don't hear you explain it.  What does location have to do with anything?  This seems a pretty common viewpoint amongst westerners- seems like nothing more than ethnocentric bias: "the east is somehow different and more spiritual because their culture is different than the one I'm familiar with"

His attitude has nothing to do with the veracity of his conclusions- nothing. 

Its pretty strange that you would suggest Samauri Drivter become a disciple of something he doesn't believe exists, let alone move to another country to persue such.  Seems just an arbitrary demand with high entry barriers rather than anything logically required to comment on the evidence we see: which shows no evidence of any supernatural 'chi' effects despite a consistant claim of supernatural/mystical m3echanisms of chi's actions.

Maybe there's some top-secret people who use the word chi to refer to something else.  This has been suggested several times.  What hasn't been clarified, however, is what that has to do with anything.  It seems plain its just an equivocation: if someone else refers to the toilet as chi, we obviously are not disproving the toilet or casting doubt on it despite the similarity of the terms.  Diploid, for example, has expressly defined what he's criticizing and people still are having a fit- though I've seen no clear problems with his definition claimed other than 'its deeper than that' and similar vagaries.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
    #14296625 - 04/15/11 05:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The title exclaims "The Definitive Chi Test"

What more needs to be said? The title eludes to Chi in general, However, without understanding what Chi really is, how can one assume to discredit it using a vaguely defined part of a definition that is completely out of context?

If these instances work or not, it has little to do with whether or not Chi exists.

Diploid posted evidence that included it working as well as not working, how is that any sort of a definitive conclusion?

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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
    #14296683 - 04/15/11 05:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Diploid posted evidence that included it working as well as not working

I posted evidence of it being demonstrated and debunked.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
    #14296704 - 04/15/11 05:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Nope, you did not.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
    #14296712 - 04/15/11 05:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You did not post any evidence that Chi does not exist, nor will you ever.

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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
    #14296753 - 04/15/11 05:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
The title exclaims "The Definitive Chi Test"

What more needs to be said? The title eludes to Chi in general, However, without understanding what Chi really is, how can one assume to discredit it using a vaguely defined part of a definition that is completely out of context?




I don't know, but I fail to see how he did that.  As his later posts explain, he was referring to a specific concept that is indeed called chi by many relevant groups, examples of such he provides.  Therefore, its hard to see how the post is using an 'out of context' definition or how Diploid fails in "understanding what Chi really is".  Even if he does, his argument still provides an appropriate test for whatever you want to call that concept he and the chi master called 'chi'.

These "what Chi really means is.... well, not that" arguments really seem like "No True Scotsman" fallacies: post hoc equivocations as to the operative subject.  This seems especially true as the proponents of such claim seem unable to provide an alternative definition with any authority or rational rendering Diploid's definition inapropriate or excluded.

As for your beef with the title, I would think you'd be correct, but it seems a rather mundane point.  I suppose it would have been more accurate to lable the thread something like "The definitive Chi Test Where Chi is Defined to Mean Such as Stated by Grand Magic pants of India..."  I imagine Diploid would readily agree with this, yet I don't see the relevance here given it can be agreed by all that what Diploid doesn't disprove... he doesn't disprove.

Like I said: if I decide Chi means a ham sandwhich, Diploid's post will have failed in disproving such, but it still seems quite suitable in disproving that which it purports to disprove.

Incidentally, regarding the knocking people over things, I would think another decent test, besides inanimate objects, would be people who don't have knowledge of their expected behavior or when the practitioner intends to "chi them up".  Confirmation bias, pressure to conform, seems plainly a suspect factor in the usual demonstrations, yet the mechanism claimed seems not to require to person to be aware of the test, so why not just blindfold them and test them against real and fake Chi Masters?  The lack of even elementary controls or blinding is a pretty conspicuous absence in these demonstrations- even grade school children understand those concepts.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
    #14296778 - 04/15/11 05:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Double-posting is a sign of exceptionally strong chi. :yesnod:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
    #14296783 - 04/15/11 05:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Sure If you seek understanding I would be happy to give a definition that would encompass what he is talking about and make a bit more sense, although still doesn't disprove anything. It would be impossible to disprove "chi"

Start here.

http://www.universal-tao.com/9formula_page/dark_matter.html

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Offlinemeatcakeman
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14296844 - 04/15/11 05:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Real traditional Qi practitioners aren't allowed to show off their abilities in public




So either you heard/read this second-hand

or

A 'real Master showed off his abilities to you.

Which is it?




obviously, some people don't follow the rules. i feel like that's a pretty blatant understanding. :kingtard:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
    #14296873 - 04/15/11 05:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What is Qi? 
Qi (Chi) means energy. Qi is more specifically the vital energy that exists before we are born, remains in the body during our life, and persists after our lives end (Trieschmann, 1999). Qi energy is polar: it possesses a positive and negative side. In Tao philosophy all positive forces in the universe have a negative force. These opposing forces act to balance one another out. When the Qi of the body is out of balance, the body gets sick (http://www.naturalhealthweb.com). Maintaining a balanced Qi will insure health, and in order to restore health from sickness, the Qi must be brought back to a balanced state (Trieschmann, 1999). Qi Gong is a way to balance Qi and heal and ward off illness.


What is Qi Gong?
Qi Gong, also spelled Chi Kung, is a Chinese method of healing. Qi means energy and Gong means skill. Together, Qi Gong is the skill of attracting vital energy (http://www.qi.org). Qi Gong is also the act of moving the Qi energy throughout the body in order to restore balance (http://www.naturalhealthweb.com).



How is Qi Gong Performed?
Qi Gong can take many different forms, some involving a Qi Gong master who transmits energy into your body through acupuncture meridians, his palms, or by tapping the individual. A Qi Gong master can also transmit Qi energy into inanimate objects and solutions, which when held to, or consumed by the body will transmit the Qi energy into the body and restore balance. Other methods involve one individual who can control his/her Qi activity through meditation, breathing exercises or mild movements.

http://healthpsych.psy.vanderbilt.edu/QiGong.htm

This is more relevant to EMPTY FORCE, which is only an aspect of Chi.

http://www.universal-tao.com/article/empty.html

"(1799-1872) - a famous tai chi chuan expert in China's Qing Dynasty who was said to "draw blood with every step" - had mastered the empty force. For this reason, people say that the tradition of the empty force was lost and reappeared during the Qing Dynasty. It was claimed that whenever Yang's life was in danger, he would kill one assailant with every step. However, what he let out of his palm was not "thunder," but what the Chinese call "jing" (force). "

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Offlinemeatcakeman
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
    #14296880 - 04/15/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

meatcakeman said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Videos constitute probably the worst kind of "evidence" imaginable. It's ridiculously easy to fake things on camera.

If doing things with chi really is possible, why hasn't someone demonstrated it under conditions that should satisfy anyone? Why hasn't it been performed successfully on a skeptic? The only response I ever hear to these questions is just a bunch of excuses. Drop the excuses and show some evidence, or there's nothing to your belief.




why do they have to prove themselves? you, as a skeptic, are of ZERO importance to these people. if you truly wish to discern the reality of the matter, you need to seek out answers yourself instead of assuming that you deserve to have answers hand-fed to you. go to China. become a disciple. until then, this is really just a pointless conversation.





Why?  I hear you say it, but I don't hear you explain it.  What does location have to do with anything?  This seems a pretty common viewpoint amongst westerners- seems like nothing more than ethnocentric bias: "the east is somehow different and more spiritual because their culture is different than the one I'm familiar with"

His attitude has nothing to do with the veracity of his conclusions- nothing. 

Its pretty strange that you would suggest Samauri Drivter become a disciple of something he doesn't believe exists, let alone move to another country to persue such.  Seems just an arbitrary demand with high entry barriers rather than anything logically required to comment on the evidence we see: which shows no evidence of any supernatural 'chi' effects despite a consistant claim of supernatural/mystical m3echanisms of chi's actions.

Maybe there's some top-secret people who use the word chi to refer to something else.  This has been suggested several times.  What hasn't been clarified, however, is what that has to do with anything.  It seems plain its just an equivocation: if someone else refers to the toilet as chi, we obviously are not disproving the toilet or casting doubt on it despite the similarity of the terms.  Diploid, for example, has expressly defined what he's criticizing and people still are having a fit- though I've seen no clear problems with his definition claimed other than 'its deeper than that' and similar vagaries.




now you're just making a fuss.

I'm simply stating the excruciatingly obvious: Qi is mystical. If you ask for evidence, then denounce said evidence on the premise that it isn't sufficient, why don't you just go dig it up yourself? Tons of videos were posted supporting and denouncing the existence of Qi. And, now, all of a sudden, videos aren't valid enough. Well, quit the bitching and do something about it. Assuming something doesn't exist because you won't accept the evidence is fine, but acting as if you are out to prove something is rather ignorant. So, if the evidence isn't sufficient, why denounce the possibility of it? Why not assume the possibility instead of choosing a side? Wouldn't that be a far more impartial take on this whole skepticism?


EDIT: i'm just saying... this debate is like trying to convince a Christian that God isn't real. it's fucking pointless.


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Edited by meatcakeman (04/15/11 05:48 PM)

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14296945 - 04/15/11 05:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Here is really a Qigong master.



As the credentials of the author's who's definition was being used have not yet emerged and the claim of Master shouldn't be taken as lightly as it was presented.

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OfflineFronnis
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14297043 - 04/15/11 06:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think to get a better understanding, the scientific side to this hypothetical chi energy should be looked at.
Some parapsychologists have studied the idea bodily energy affecting movement in inanimate objects (telekinesis) and extra-sensory perception, and called the energy "psi." A wikipedia link-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psi_(parapsychology).
There are many forums on the net having people that actually believe they can achieve such feats such as control over matter and elements through such psi energy.
One website, http://qpsychics.com/, is run by a Dr. of parapsychology, starting up a university for people to study the supposed effect of psi on inanimate objects and elements.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Fronnis]
    #14297094 - 04/15/11 06:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Thank you fronnis, Psi would definitely be better wording than Chi.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Fronnis]
    #14297100 - 04/15/11 06:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That would be nifty, but a universtiy seems a bit overkill given the lack of any decent evidence for this telekenesis in the first place.  I know one of the cop outs people use (not saying you, just that its been said commonly) to explain the dichotomy between commonly observed effects like psi and no decent evidence/scientific knowledge, is funding/facilities being closed to such.

Really, though, what does it take to demonstrate telekentic ability?  Put someone in a room, have them move something, done.  This isn't high-priced research here, you just need a controlled envirnoment- any room will do that the aprticipant has no access to outside the test.

While apparently 'real' Chi-Men don't show their skills, those who aren't top-secret could pretty easily demonstrate these sorts of things.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Fronnis]
    #14297125 - 04/15/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

starting up a university for people to study the supposed effect of psi on inanimate objects and elements.




How do you 'study' an inanimate object affected by imagination?


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
    #14297160 - 04/15/11 06:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I could tell he was a 'real master. He was old, Chinese, had that wispy beard thingie going on; and most importantly - his PR team called him Master in the video at least a dozen times. Can't get any more authentic than that!


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
    #14297178 - 04/15/11 06:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Did you know that when I stretch, flexons zoom from my spine into my tendons?


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