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Tri High
Whigro


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A city hall meeting
#14295821 - 04/15/11 02:10 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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So I went to the city hall meeting and they had a pastor or father say a prayer before starting the meeting.
Isn't it declared somewhere in the constitution that there should be a strict separation of church and state?
And, wouldn't having a christian prayer said before a town hall meeting, explicitly stating during which that God will grant insight and wisdom to the council members in their decision making, not at all proper?
Do they do this for congress, too?
And swearing to god on a bible on the stand, to tell the truth... Are civil and criminal court cases not dealing heavily with "the state"? Well, church is swearing to a standard deity of some kind to tell the truth.
Seriously, what the fuck gives?
And any mason will swear to god because god is not the 'grand architect' or some bullshit, while still lying and not get in trouble.
What if I swear to the god of lying that I'll tell the truth?
What the fuck, guys.
Someone set me straight about all this, so help me god.
-------------------- you just need money to get laid - starfire_xes
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: Tri High]
#14295944 - 04/15/11 02:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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maybe you live in the buttfuck of nowhere where nobody cares?
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: Tri High]
#14295970 - 04/15/11 02:36 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Tri High said: So I went to the city hall meeting and they had a pastor or father say a prayer before starting the meeting.
Isn't it declared somewhere in the constitution that there should be a strict separation of church and state?
No. In fact the phrase doesn't appear at all.
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Tri High
Whigro


Registered: 05/02/08
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States
The first three lines. Read them.
Come back. Thanks for the revelation that it is not explicitly stated in the constitution, only implied.
So, back to where we were.
Why come they make people swear by a god in court when not everyone recognizes a god to swear by in court?
Why, at a city hall meeting of a diverse city, to they pray to the christian god for counsel and direction?
-------------------- you just need money to get laid - starfire_xes
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: Tri High]
#14296118 - 04/15/11 03:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Tri High said: Isn't it declared somewhere in the constitution that there should be a strict separation of church and state?
No.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
It quite clearly says Congress shall not establish a (state) religion, and that you can practice any religion you wish to. It says not a word about separating anything, though I wish it did.
es·tab·lish [ih-stab-lish] Show IPA –verb (used with object) 1. to found, institute, build, or bring into being on a firm or stable basis: to establish a university; to establish a Medical practice. 2. to install or settle in a position, place, business, etc.: to establish one's child in business. 3. to show to be valid or true; prove: to establish the facts of the matter. 4. to cause to be accepted or recognized: to establish a custom; She established herself as a leading surgeon. 5. to bring about permanently: to establish order. 6. to enact, appoint, or ordain for permanence, as a law; fix unalterably. 7. to make (a church) a national or state institution. 8. Cards . to obtain control of (a suit) so that one can win all the subsequent tricks in it.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: Tri High]
#14297356 - 04/15/11 06:51 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Tri High said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States
The first three lines. Read them.
Come back. Thanks for the revelation that it is not explicitly stated in the constitution, only implied.
So, back to where we were.
Why come they make people swear by a god in court when not everyone recognizes a god to swear by in court?
Why, at a city hall meeting of a diverse city, to they pray to the christian god for counsel and direction?
Is the Christian god different from the Jewish or Muslim god? No it is not. And they don't make everybody swear to god in court. And they have "in god we trust" on the money. And a whole lot of other shit that probably chaps your annoying ass. Which suits me just fine.
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Tri High
Whigro


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So in the world there are only muslims, jews, and christians?
No, there are not. There are Russians, Indians, Hawaiians, Chinese, Japanese, Africans, etc...
All have their own faith.
So conforming to God is something they must do to obey our laws?
If one breaks a law can they not get in trouble because of their 'religious' affiliation?
Gods =/= spirits, let us assume.
-------------------- you just need money to get laid - starfire_xes
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: Tri High]
#14297451 - 04/15/11 07:12 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Tri High said: So in the world there are only muslims, jews, and christians?
No, there are not. There are Russians, Indians, Hawaiians, Chinese, Japanese, Africans, etc...
All have their own faith.
So conforming to God is something they must do to obey our laws?
If one breaks a law can they not get in trouble because of their 'religious' affiliation?
Gods =/= spirits, let us assume.
You made an asinine whine about them saying some prayer before a town meeting. Don't join in. Nobody forced you to. And, as I already pointed out, you do not have to swear to god in court. Whine whine whine.
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Tri High
Whigro


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Let's keep personal attacks out of this discussion, please.
I am just curious as to why the standard in America is God when it is explicitly and implicitly stated that 'the state' will not impose any belief system on any member of the country.
-------------------- you just need money to get laid - starfire_xes
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: Tri High]
#14297470 - 04/15/11 07:17 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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How does anybody saying a prayer before a meeting impose anything on you? Like I said, you don't have to swear to god in court. Whine whine whine.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: Tri High]
#14297501 - 04/15/11 07:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Tri High said:
And swearing to god on a bible on the stand, to tell the truth...
never once had to and never had to object, no bible was ever produced and all I was asked to agree to was the statement "do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you"
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Tri High
Whigro


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Well, it always seems that 'god' naturally follows from that statement.
so help you...
Really, in some cases, you might be better helped if you were not to tell the truth. So...help you....____?
-------------------- you just need money to get laid - starfire_xes
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: Tri High]
#14297510 - 04/15/11 07:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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All they asked me was, "Do you swear to tell the truth?" No bible, no god, no nothing.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: Tri High]
#14297815 - 04/15/11 08:34 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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> Well, it always seems that 'god' naturally follows from that statement.
So you are upset because of your conditioning rather than reality? 
> Really, in some cases, you might be better helped if you were not to tell the truth. So...help you....____?
In the context of the legal system, if you swear to tell the truth and then lie, you are committing the crime of purjury. Not the brightest move in the world. In the US, where you have the right to remain silent, it is better to say nothing than to lie under oath.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: Tri High]
#14299634 - 04/16/11 05:22 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Tri High said: I am just curious as to why the standard in America is God when it is explicitly and implicitly stated that 'the state' will not impose any belief system on any member of the country.
Your city council isn't the state. The city council can pretty much do as they please since the only thing the constitution really says about them is that they can't infringe any of your rights and they have to have a republican form of government.
Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: Tri High]
#14300185 - 04/16/11 09:42 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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If they were not allowed to pray, that would be the state imposing on their rights.
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Smackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14310261 - 04/18/11 02:26 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Your city council isn't the state. The city council can pretty much do as they please since the only thing the constitution really says about them is that they can't infringe any of your rights and they have to have a republican form of government.
Constitutionally speaking that is untrue. Municipal governments are held to the same standards as the states from which they derive their authority.
Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
The due process clause of the 14th amendment has expanded that to include state governments and their municipalities.
As far as I can tell the Supreme Court hasn't heard a case directly on point. Lee v. Weisman went to school prayer and there is some decent on if it applies to adult institutions. I believe that there is a division between circuits on this question. Bunting v. Mellen would suggest that the conduct is unconstitutional as longs as they required you to "be respectfully at rest" during the prayer.
-------------------- The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all. ~H. L. Mencken~
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: Tri High]
#14310489 - 04/18/11 05:09 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Tri High said:
Why come they make people swear by a god in court when not everyone recognizes a god to swear by in court?
Who is "they"? What are you referring to by "court"?
As stated your premise is incorrect: that is not something people are made to do in "court". If you have a particular case where you claim such is done, then cite it with particularity so we know what you talking about.
Generally you do not have to swear at all, to god or anything else, do to the first amendment and likely the religious freedom restoration act as such is incompatible with some protestant beliefs, for example.
Quote:
Why, at a city hall meeting of a diverse city, to they pray to the christian god for counsel and direction?
This isn't really a question, but if this is a typo and your asking "why do they", then I'd imagine its cuz someone decided its a good idea. I don't know what this matters though: it doesn't really matter as to the legality, per se.
Quote:
Tri High said:
So conforming to God is something they must do to obey our laws?
No- what does "conforming to God" mean in the first place? I have no idea what this refers to.
Quote:
If one breaks a law can they not get in trouble because of their 'religious' affiliation?
Yes, per the religious freedom restoration act if their religion and belief is bonafide and the law doesn't advance a compelling state interest, et cet.
Yes per the first amendment if the law is establishing a religion or favoring one over another rather than establishing religion/viewpoint netural law.
As for your question, the conduct was illegal if it tended to establish a religious practice or institution, discriminated on religious grounds, et cet
If some guy just made a statement, this is not a violation. If the council forced you to show respect towards the prayer, join in, et cet than it probably did violate the first amendment.
As to whether a prayer made at all is a violation of the first amendment, I wouldn't believe so, however; if the prayer mentions god and so forth, I would imagine it would or should.
A stronger case might be a religious freedom restoration act claim if the prayer was made by a city official or recognized by the proceeding in some official capacity and you had some bonafide religious practice (probably not atheism, atheists have less legal protection) in legitimate conflict with that conduct or that tended to deprive you of services/information available to other residents.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: johnm214]
#14310510 - 04/18/11 05:30 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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> If the council forced you to show respect towards the prayer, join in, et cet than it probably did violate the first amendment.
I almost got expelled from high school (a long time ago) over this issue. We were required to stand and recite the "Pledge of Allegiance" each morning before the start of our first class. My junior year, I took issue with the "one nation under god" bit and refused to participate. Needless to say, having a "young atheist free thinker" in the middle of the bible belt didn't go over very well. After a lot of threats from both sides, we decided that I could stay silent on the "under god" phrase, but participate/recite the rest.
Oddly, we also used to "join hands and say a prayer" before the start of extra curricular activities (sports), but I never took an issue with that. It was an opt in system, rather than being forced under threat of expulsion. I didn't like it, but since I wasn't forced to participate, I kept my dislike to myself.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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johnm214


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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: Seuss]
#14310520 - 04/18/11 05:44 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's pretty wild that they would have a fit over that. The pledge of allgiance seems pretty pointless to me, and completely pointless if it is mandatory.
Its a bit disheartening to imagine that this same school teaches the civics/government classes which cover the first amendment and yet the administration of such cannot recognize the inherent consitutional problems in their conduct.
Honestly, other than myself objecting to the whole charade as coercive and pointless, I never even really considered the words as a child. They meant as much to me as tieing my shoelaces did: I certainly never intended to "pledge allegiance to the government".
The whole procedure seems like it should be abolished: it reeks of an authoritative government abusing the law that gives them power over the area's children.
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Quote:
Smackshadow said: Constitutionally speaking that is untrue. Municipal governments are held to the same standards as the states from which they derive their authority.
In terms of civil rights violations, they are held to almost the same standard (but not quite--not all of the rights the federal constitution protects have been "incorporated" and applied to the states), in terms of almost everything else, the federal constitution doesn't limit them really at all, other than requiring that they have a republican form of government. See, for example, the 10th amendment:
Quote:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Most glaringly, the states and municipalities have a very wide-ranging police power which the federal government is severely restricted from employing--except in the case of interstate commerce-derived activity since this is explicitly laid out as their domain in the constitution. They have taken a hold of that and expanded it to the point where you might think that the federal government has a general police power, but they do not.
Quote:
Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
The due process clause of the 14th amendment has expanded that to include state governments and their municipalities.
That's true, but even when the state and federal governments are held to the same standards, the state has interests that the federal government does not which allows them to do things that the federal government cannot, not that it matters in this case.
Quote:
As far as I can tell the Supreme Court hasn't heard a case directly on point. Lee v. Weisman went to school prayer and there is some decent on if it applies to adult institutions. I believe that there is a division between circuits on this question. Bunting v. Mellen would suggest that the conduct is unconstitutional as longs as they required you to "be respectfully at rest" during the prayer.
Yeah, case law is sparse, and it would be a tossup in the Supreme Court, but my own opinion is that it's not an issue. OP would have to make a really strong case that there was any coercion going on. If there is a law or a policy requiring the prayer to happen before the meeting, he has a case.
Now that I'm thinking about it even more, I'm sure there is some city employee that is required to be there who is being paid hourly, hence wasting municipal funds for religious purposes... Now that's an angle I don't think has been investigated.
I wonder why the OP didn't stand up and voice an objection at some point in the meeting. It would have been interesting to hear the council's response and might have affected how I feel about it in some way.
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: Seuss]
#14310670 - 04/18/11 07:13 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: I almost got expelled from high school (a long time ago) over this issue. We were required to stand and recite the "Pledge of Allegiance" each morning before the start of our first class. My junior year, I took issue with the "one nation under god" bit and refused to participate. Needless to say, having a "young atheist free thinker" in the middle of the bible belt didn't go over very well.
The same thing happened to me in high school and in middle school. Their issue then was that I refused to even stand to acknowledge the "event". In high school, the district freaked out at the prospect of being sued when the ACLU chimed in (the local chapter made a press release stating that they were "salivating" over the case). They ended up hanging signs in multiple places at every school in the district clarifying that it is not policy to force students to stand during the pledge. I assume there was some teacher re-education going on behind the scenes as well to keep the district's ass out of the fire. I kept sitting.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14312678 - 04/18/11 02:59 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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I had the same issues in school with the pledge, sent to the office who called my mom who is a christian (not the bible thumping church going type), my mother informed them I couldnt be forced to do anything I disagree with and to try and push that issue would invite a lawsuit
I went back to class and was never bothered about it again, in a few days several others were remaining seated during the pledge
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Smackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


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A unifying experience for all then. I was severely lectured during high-school for refusing to say the Pledge. My issues are the "allegiance to the flag", "one nation under God", and the "indivisible" parts. I politely informed my gym teacher that no force in this world or the next would make me profess something I disagreed with, and the matter was dropped.
In fairness to the teachers, this happened shortly after 9/11 so everyone was all up in arms about the whole patriotism thing to begin with.
-------------------- The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all. ~H. L. Mencken~
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Quote:
Smackshadow said: In fairness to the teachers, this happened shortly after 9/11 so everyone was all up in arms about the whole patriotism thing to begin with.
Don't even give them that. There is nothing patriotic about what they were trying to do.
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Smackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


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Re: A city hall meeting [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14315502 - 04/19/11 02:40 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree, but I can see why they got up in arms about it.
-------------------- The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all. ~H. L. Mencken~
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