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OfflineKingkuper
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Registered: 02/24/10
Posts: 86
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: I believe in God... [Re: g00ru]
    #14286713 - 04/13/11 09:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Heres some evidence god exists: how else could anything be here? how could anything have been created?

then diploid or someother will ask "how then did god get created?"

two very valid questions. obviously the existence of a deity or god is way over all of our heads and know one can possibly know if god exists. Experience is better than proof, because there is no proof.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: I believe in God... [Re: Kingkuper]
    #14286839 - 04/13/11 09:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Heres some evidence god exists? how else could anything be here? how could anything have been created?

That's not evidence. That's two questions. Your writing is very hard to follow.

If what you mean is that things exist and so that's evidence of a creator, then it's faulty thinking. Not knowing something means not knowing something. Period. Nothing more.

Deciding that we don't know where it came from therefore god made it makes as much sense as deciding that we don't know where it came from therefore the Tooth Fairy made it.

how could anything have been created?

The available evidence suggests that the universe was not created. It didn't have a birth date, so to speak

Although the definitive answer is not currently known for sure, recent developments in quantum physics have given us some plausible answers that are consistent with available evidence. I wrote about this at length here:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13145354#13145354

Read that. I'm not typing the whole explanation again in this thread.

Edit: Oops, wrong link. Fixed.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (04/13/11 09:35 PM)

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OfflineKingkuper
Stranger


Registered: 02/24/10
Posts: 86
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: I believe in God... [Re: Diploid]
    #14286911 - 04/13/11 09:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:


http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13145354#13145354

Read that. I'm not typing the whole explanation again in this thread.

Edit: Oops, wrong link. Fixed.




ok thats very interesting. for reals. but it would be more interesting to find out how they know this? can you provide me with that?

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
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Re: I believe in God... [Re: Kingkuper]
    #14287112 - 04/13/11 10:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

ok thats very interesting. for reals. but it would be more interesting to find out how they know this? can you provide me with that?

Man, I wish that were possible. It's not something that can be explained in a few internet posts. I spent four years in university undergrad plus two years in graduate school learning physics and engineering, and I identify as an advanced beginner.

If you're really interested, read this link. It's the least of the background knowledge you'd need to understand what you're asking about because the topic in that link touches on nearly everything in modern physics. PM me questions. I'll answer if I can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_Planck_constant


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlineg00ru
lit pants tit licker
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Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: I believe in God... [Re: Diploid]
    #14287271 - 04/13/11 10:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

that planck constant stuff strait up shows you the limitations of math and semantic logic.  At a certain point we just can't symbolically represent the universe any more precisely with equations. That to me means there must be some totally transcendental ultimate reality that gives substance to everything, cause logical obviously aint doin it. Not to mention, there's people in every time and culture trying their best to tell you that you can access this reality within yourself.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: I believe in God... [Re: g00ru]
    #14287344 - 04/13/11 10:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

At a certain point we just can't symbolically represent the universe any more precisely with equations.

So at that point we turn to magic to explain the world? :cuckoo:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: I believe in God... [Re: g00ru]
    #14287387 - 04/13/11 10:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
keepin it real :macdre:

Philosophy forum needs a level up, really bad.  Debate without experience is like two blind men arguing about which painter is better.



Wow, so you assume you're the only one who's experienced anything... Pretty arrogant if you ask me. Have you considered that maybe we just interpret our experiences differently?  :ifyoucanawe:

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Offlineg00ru
lit pants tit licker
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Re: I believe in God... [Re: NetDiver]
    #14287903 - 04/14/11 12:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

No its not a question of interpretation, I can totally tell when somebody has had those true religious experiences. Plenty of people on the spirituality forum have had experiences like me, maybe they don't quite dig talkin with you folks over here as much because of your condescending attitudes

Quote:

Diploid said:
So at that point we turn to magic to explain the world? :cuckoo:




See what I'm talking about? No attempt to level with me at all.  I'm not talking about magic diploid, even though in a sense I do proudly believe in magic (I am alive after all).  I'm talking about divine grace, which intuitively you should know is necessary for there to be anything at all (logic can't penetrate past time and space, as I'm sure you understand).  That original uncaused cause which had to happen, which is happening all the time.  It's being, love, energy, consciousness...the original manifestation. Science will never realize this through empirical testing, it simply won't work.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: I believe in God... [Re: g00ru]
    #14288291 - 04/14/11 02:41 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
that planck constant stuff strait up shows you the limitations of math and semantic logic.  At a certain point we just can't symbolically represent the universe any more precisely with equations. That to me means there must be some totally transcendental ultimate reality that gives substance to everything, cause logical obviously aint doin it.





Why?  What makes you say "logical obviously aint doin it"?  What about the claimed impercision in equations leads to this result?

The equations are accurate, to describe them as equations rather than reality, along with your description of them as a defect, seems to be to seek a problem where there isn't one.

Why should the equations not be impercise?  What does the lack of percision have to do with anything and how does that suggest what you urge?

Quote:

Not to mention, there's people in every time and culture trying their best to tell you that you can access this reality within yourself.




There's also bearded women and people who talk to rocks in every culture.  So what?

This seems nothing more than an appeal to popularity for a pretty vague claim.

Quote:

guruu said:
keepin it real :macdre:

Philosophy forum needs a level up, really bad.  Debate without experience is like two blind men arguing about which painter is better.




How so?  Philosophy is justified by logic.  You do not need to experience to think, and someone with no experience is no less able to identify logic, per se, than someone with experience.  A painting cannot neccesarily be understood by someone without sight, but someone without experience can understand an argument- hence the experienceless person may judge an argument accurately and your analogy is flawed.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: I believe in God... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14288646 - 04/14/11 06:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
zilla!



I think there is sufficient evidence. :yesnod:




I believe in a Cult.

Blue Oyster Cult!



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Offlineg00ru
lit pants tit licker
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Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: I believe in God... [Re: johnm214]
    #14288927 - 04/14/11 08:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

guruu said:
that planck constant stuff strait up shows you the limitations of math and semantic logic.  At a certain point we just can't symbolically represent the universe any more precisely with equations. That to me means there must be some totally transcendental ultimate reality that gives substance to everything, cause logical obviously aint doin it.





Why?  What makes you say "logical obviously aint doin it"?  What about the claimed impercision in equations leads to this result?

The equations are accurate, to describe them as equations rather than reality, along with your description of them as a defect, seems to be to seek a problem where there isn't one.

Why should the equations not be impercise?  What does the lack of percision have to do with anything and how does that suggest what you urge?





we can't measure time or space smaller than certain constants. But obviously, math tells us there is such thing as infinitely small and infinitely big.  The universe must have at one point been smaller than the planck lenght, but it is nonsensical to talk about that physically.  Does that mean we should give up pursuit of learning about the reason for the universe's existence, just throw that out the window because logic can't penetrate it? No, it means we have to adopt highly alternative means, which as it turns out are introspective and spiritual in nature.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: I believe in God... [Re: g00ru]
    #14288936 - 04/14/11 09:00 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
No its not a question of interpretation, I can totally tell when somebody has had those true religious experiences. Plenty of people on the spirituality forum have had experiences like me, maybe they don't quite dig talkin with you folks over here as much because of your condescending attitudes



Wow, we're condescending?:facepalm:

What experience are you talking about? The grand experience of realizing you exist? :rolleyes: Plenty of folks here in the PS&P forum have had existential crises, I'm sure; which is not so different from what you call a "religous experience"- just as intense, if not so blindly optimistic.

Stop thinking that your experience (which you refuse to try and explain) makes you intrinsically better than everyone else who seeks to explain theirs.


--------------------

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: I believe in God... [Re: g00ru]
    #14289057 - 04/14/11 09:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

But obviously, math tells us there is such thing as infinitely small and infinitely big.

So what? Math is a model of reality. It's not reality.

A map can't describe a landscape to arbitrary precision. At some point the granularity of the landscape exceeds the paper maps ability to depict. So what? The map is not the landscape. Math is not reality. They are each models of what they represent.

The universe must have at one point been smaller than the planck lenght

Uh no. You did not read the link we're discussing. Either that or you didn't comprehend it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineg00ru
lit pants tit licker
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: I believe in God... [Re: Diploid]
    #14290115 - 04/14/11 01:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Math carries its own reality as a mental phenomenon. Just because it's seemingly less substantial doesn't mean it's less real. In fact the opposite is true.

I agree with your map/territory analogy, except i flip it on its ear and say that math is the territory, and physical reality is the map.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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