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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: Annapurna1]
    #14300845 - 04/16/11 01:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

As it emerged within the context of Weimar Germany, Nazi-ism was a reactionary force from the right.  They were extremely culturally and socially conservative.  They may have adopted the rhetoric of workers' rights, but they consolidated power by way of cronyism and cultivated a loyalist elite.  Their staunchest opponents were from the far left, with policies of increasing appeasement found as one moved towards the center of the political spectrum. 

To use the parlance of the 21st-century U.S., they were indeed "big-government".  However, their cultural and social conservatism and Blut und Boden rhetoric are closer to the the positions of the contemporary American right than they are to the contemporary American left.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: Me_Roy]
    #14300977 - 04/16/11 01:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Cronyism and a loyalist elite are left wing features, not conservative or capitalist meritocracy.

They reason they hated the communists so much was that they were so similar.

They weren't so much conservative as they were nationalist.  Hence that part of their name.


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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14301211 - 04/16/11 01:59 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Socially and culturally, the Nazis were ur-konservativ.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: Me_Roy]
    #14301420 - 04/16/11 02:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Only if you pervert the meaning of the word conservative to mean what liberal assholes like to imagine it means.


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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14301573 - 04/16/11 03:01 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

...and I'll say the same for your use of the term liberal.  Thanks for the discussion.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: Me_Roy]
    #14301600 - 04/16/11 03:04 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Do you think the Soviet Union was a liberal nation?


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Invisibledespisedicon
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14301809 - 04/16/11 03:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Better dead than red.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: despisedicon]
    #14301884 - 04/16/11 04:05 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Give me liberty or give me death.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: Me_Roy]
    #14302032 - 04/16/11 04:36 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/05/22 07:46 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #14302130 - 04/16/11 04:57 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
The only reason some people have a problem with Nazi Germany being right-wing is bc they are using a contradictory scale of left vs. right that has limited application in reality. The premise they use is left = statism, & right = individualism/no government involvement. It seems simple, but it breaks down when looking at the U.S. political scene.

Consider the following:

- such loyal devotion to the state the they are happy to send their first-born it is death upon its alter, believing children from the youngest age should be mandated to pledge their total allegiance every day to the almighty state, in a massive big government (or "socialist" if you will), inherently ultra-authoritarian institution, which happens to be the largest portion of the federal budget

- believing that the state should have arbitrary control over the body & mind of its subjects (instead of owning your own body being a natural right of all people), & coerce them (& then often incarcerate after an initial detainment), inflicting virtually-unaccountable violence (sometimes lethal) on its subjects if they don't comply to this from of imposed state ownership of one's body; this control would also extend to a woman's reproductive anatomy

As such, the Religious Right (i.e. social conservatives, the core constituency of the GOP) would be "radical leftists" in a # of far-reaching & fundamental ways. Conversely, someone like Mikhail Bakunin (19th century Russian anarchist who spend time in prison for his anti-Czarist activities) would have been a "right-wing extremist."

I realize that this scale would have some merit for people like the "anarcho-capitalist" Murray Rothbard (who actually wrote a lamenting eulogy containing much praise for Che Guevara, for his fight against the "common enemy of U.S. imperialism" that sought to dominate & subordinate the sovereignty of the 3rd world), but for every one of him, there are hundreds of dull-witted GOPers who love & empower the state when it comes to waging war against darker-skinned people abroad (or incarcerating them domestically via the racist "War on Drugs"), or such asinine things as eradicating hemp plants (let alone marijuana.)



You make several flagrantly stupid assumptions:

1.  That service in the military is a death sentence
2.  That anybody is mandated to pledge their allegiance
3.  That national defense is "big government".  No, it is all government.  That is primarily why we have them going back to clan of the cave bear times.
4.  That the only being at issue in abortion is the mother.
5.  That drug prohibition has anything to do with race.  See China.
By the way, why don't you tell us all about how the leftist/liberal nations treat drug use?  As far as waging war on "darkies" you might want to consider what flavor the Germans and Soviets were.  Che Guevara was a murderous piece of shit who died cowering and Murray Rothbard is almost equally scummy.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: Talking Head]
    #14305264 - 04/17/11 09:32 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Talking Head said:
Why is it that naziism is often portrayed as a right-wing ideology in films?

:uhno:




Which films? From which countries? From which time periods?

If I had to characterize the tendency of portrayal of nazism in American films I would say that they tend to, for the most part, side step the politics of the third reich alltogether, with the exception of a disgust for its authoritarian structure. In fact if there were one "character" in film history who (outside of facist propoganda of the third reich era) is a given symbol of evil itself, it would probably be hitler. The film maker takes it for granted that the audience is going to know that Hitler is "bad," and where the film typically goes from there is an exploration of the people and nations around him. How many films can you think of that actually explore the (in)effectiveness of Hitler's politics? I myself am having trouble thinking of a movie that portrays nazism as either left wing or right wing, and would be interested to hear what films you or others have in mind.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14307239 - 04/17/11 03:56 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/05/22 07:47 PM)

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InvisibleTherian
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #14307607 - 04/17/11 05:01 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

In fact if there were one "character" in film history who (outside of fascist propaganda of the third Reich era) is a given symbol of evil itself, it would probably be hitler. The film maker takes it for granted that the audience is going to know that Hitler is "bad," and where the film typically goes from there is an exploration of the people and nations around him. How many films can you think of that actually explore the (in)effectiveness of Hitler's politics?




Yes I believe the only time you see any characterizations of hitler, the Reich, or the german people in general during this time period the prelude invariably goes as follows. All one has to do to look into the face of true evil, to see the devil incarnate, the murderous butcher, etc. etc.

If you want to take a contemporary perspective I believe the Reich and obama are inversely proportionate. One can not have any legitimate concerns about obamas flat out lies, broken promises, ineffective leadership, etc. without eventually being called a racist. As matter of fact it was on the national news a while ago that the question was posed that "if one disagrees with obama, does that make them a racist?" Give me a freaking break, as this guy has gotten one, as well as a free pass on nearly every lie he has ever told. Don't disagree with Obama, as you too will be a racist.

The same holds true for the Reich. Don't ever say any good came of the leadership. Don't say that the nation was by magnitudes far more advanced than was nearly any other nation. During the war it was amazing the amount of innovation that took place in the ream of multiple disciplines.  They made advances in the fields of biology, physics esp. optics, as well as the electron microscope, medicine, rocketry, and of course engineering. Their weapons were by far better than ours, their engineering prowess made us look like incompetent fools.

These people were like vectors. They had drive, force, intellect, and direction. Comparatively speaking, ask any american now where is this country going? What are our goals? Where do we see ourselves being in 20 years? Is anyone on either side optimistic? Do we have any "national goals" or are we nothing but an amalgamation of separate racial states within a state, without a common identity or purpose? Neither side of our political spectrum can even come up with answers to such basic simple questions. They could, they did, and they kicked ass. Were it not for inept leadership I'm certain they would have owned most of Europe.

German children were taught the value of intellectual pursuits as well as the virtues of athleticism and self reliance/determinism. They gave to the poor, volunteered their time to help the elderly, and had a mantra of none will starve or freeze. Well, every year we have elderly freeze to death in my state. Many seniors go without adequate food as well as health care. The Germans didn't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterhilfswerk

Watch the news here, all you see is kids in gangs, beating and stealing from the elderly. Athleticism or intellectualism? What a joke. American children are some of the fattest most ignorant bastards on this planet. If you ever see any that actually help seniors or have even the most minuscule amount of drive, they are called "heroes". The skinheads and KKK are no more like the Nazis, than the tea partiers are like the original founding fathers/sons of liberty.

As for many of the german films and literature they are called propaganda. What is propaganda? Here we call it the media, and therefor it has a legitimate ring to it. Due to the fact most Americans don't feel they are being influenced by it, or that if even exists, illustrates just how well it is working.

Watch the (triumph of the will, 1934). Since it is a know fact that most news agencies are owned by those of the jewish persuasion, does that mean we are all subject to zionist propaganda? Or is it only so when we don't agree with the message?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #14307692 - 04/17/11 05:17 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

Che Guevara was a murderous piece of shit who died cowering and Murray Rothbard is almost equally scummy.




'Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man' (as recalled by his executioner, in contrast to the lying opportunistic CIA agent who used to torture for Batista, & who worked w/a Nazi war criminal for help to capture him), by a man who risked his life countless times & never as a for profit mercenary but rather fighting for the poor, is not "cowering." Murray Rothbard scum? If that's what you think of libertarians, so be it.

Portugal & drug laws; look it up if you don't already know. basically the rest of the developed world is light years ahead of the U.S. in drug policy, btw.

Imperialism is not "national defense." Supporting pro-American dictators abroad is not "national defense." It is, however, big government of the highest magnitude, & right-wingers of the "moral majority" have unquestioning loyalty to it no matter what is ask them to do & to support (torture & execute peasant civilians in Central America, torture civilians or otherwise common criminals at Abu Ghraib, killing civilians in drone strike, etc.)



America does not practice imperialism.  If they did all of SA would be protectorates.  The criminals of Abu Graib were prosecuted in courts of law.  The rest of the world is, except in the view of blinkered idiots, at least as repressive as the US regarding drug laws.  You spew endless bullshit.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14309991 - 04/18/11 12:50 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
America does not practice imperialism.





false ..iraq and afghanistan...

Quote:


The criminals of Abu Graib were prosecuted in courts of
law.





mostly false but still partly true ..some of them were..but the big fish got away...

Quote:

The rest of the world is, except in the view of blinkered idiots, at least as repressive as the US regarding drug laws.




absolutely..positively..false ..go to amsterdam...

Quote:


You spew endless bullshit.





you should be talking...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #14310925 - 04/18/11 08:39 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

You are a pathetic ignorant racist, revealing the indistinguishable link between the far right & underlying Nazi ideology.





lol

What's this now?  Indistinguishable link between far right and its underlying Nazi ideology? 

This seems pretty absurd- ridiculous.  I don't know what else to say other than appeal to ridicule, as you don't seem to have bothered to share any evidence of that which is indistinguishable from... Nazism?  What is "far right" anyways?




Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

Che Guevara was a murderous piece of shit who died cowering and Murray Rothbard is almost equally scummy.




'Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man' (as recalled by his executioner, in contrast to the lying opportunistic CIA agent who used to torture for Batista, & who worked w/a Nazi war criminal for help to capture him), by a man who risked his life countless times & never as a for profit mercenary but rather fighting for the poor, is not "cowering." Murray Rothbard scum? If that's what you think of libertarians, so be it.




How was Che Guevara a man who fought for the poor?  This seems a pretty rose-colored filter of that which he did.  He fought for his ideology: the poor where the fuel that he tried to exploit for his support, both succesfully and not in varying cases.

To say he did what he did for the poor, rather than for power, for ideology, against hated regimes, et cet seems to be taking a selective view of things.

How did he view the poor who didn't agree with his particular ideology and plans- those in the Congo and Bolivia who were less than suitably enthusiastic at the thought of violent struggle?  My understanding was that it was to call them ignorant and fools.  Rather than "fighting for them" it seemed he used them when it suited his purposes and ignored them when it didn't- to say nothing of what happened in Cuba once he got his way.

Anyways: what does Guevera's merit have to do with that of the CIA who opposed him or the worth of Batista?  Even the US disliked and eventually left Batista, despite their views on the alternative: it doesn't say a whole lot to say someone was better than Batista.



Quote:

Imperialism is not "national defense." Supporting pro-American dictators abroad is not "national defense."





What imperialism are you referring to?  I don't think anyone is arguing that imperialism is "national defense", but I doubt are definitions of imperialism have much in common.

How is supporting pro-American dictators abroad not national defense?  Seems like it would be by definition: if they like America they don't fight america.

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Offlinepouihi
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: johnm214]
    #14316375 - 04/19/11 10:00 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

DictatorSHIT is shit be it left or right.

Although Nazi stood for national socialism, it wasn't socialist at all, but right-winged. Just as he was retarded enough to pick an hindu symbol and probably would burn all hindus if he could.

One balled, gay, frustrated, austrian, jew descendant looser.


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"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."

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InvisibleGI_Luvmoney
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #14319018 - 04/19/11 06:31 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Deleted by Seuss - Keep it polite or take a vacation.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: GI_Luvmoney]
    #14321231 - 04/20/11 01:53 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

What ever happened to the OP...

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Nationalsozialismus [Re: ChuangTzu] * 1
    #14321614 - 04/20/11 05:43 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
What ever happened to the OP...




Yah, I wanted a chance to show off how much I know about Nazism and film :mad2:


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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