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R_king
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Registered: 04/13/11
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Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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WBS too dry leading to slow colonization?
#14285053 - 04/13/11 04:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Soaked my WBS for a little over a day, strained in, cleaned it, removed the black sf seeds, and added 1:10 of dry verm. I added the verm because I didnt let the seed sit in the strainer for that long and the mix seemed a little wet. PC'd them in spawn bags for about an hour, hung and cooled, then injected with a LC.
It has been over a week and still nothing, one bag has some slight myc fuz between the bag and seed, but others are showing no sign.
My question is what consistency should the seed be? I didnt simmer the WBS like in other teks and feel like it might not have enough moisture. The seeds are wet but wont squish if I pinch them. Does this mean they didn't absorb enough water?
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Microppose
Things Maker



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Re: WBS too dry leading to slow colonization? [Re: R_king]
#14285116 - 04/13/11 04:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Avoiding the simmer is probably one of your problems, if not THE problem. Simmering grain softens it up, making it easier for the mycelium to penetrate. Your spores may germinate, but won't thrive so readily.
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Primal Call
Earth Mage



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Re: WBS too dry leading to slow colonization? [Re: R_king]
#14285281 - 04/13/11 05:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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you'll notice the mycelium looking wispy if your grain is too dry. the simmer really does help. Personally, I bring my grain to a boil then kill the heat, lid the pot, and leave it for about an hour, stirring occasionally. this way it slowly absorbs moisture without added heat, and I find it less prone to bursting. afterward, lay it out in front of a fan to dry then load and PC.
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R_king
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Re: WBS too dry leading to slow colonization? [Re: Primal Call]
#14286351 - 04/13/11 08:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I might just open the bags and simmer the seed and PC again. Has anyone every tried grinding up the seed in a coffee grinder then using that for substrate? Not to a powder but just smaller chunks, maybe a blender instead of the coffee grinder
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anonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: WBS too dry leading to slow colonization? [Re: R_king]
#14286381 - 04/13/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Don't assume the problem is the grain.
LC's vary wildly in the time they take to show growth.
From the description of your grain prep, it does not sound like dry grain is the issue at all.
-------------------- The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
Edited by anonjon (04/13/11 08:15 PM)
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anonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: WBS too dry leading to slow colonization? [Re: anonjon]
#14286390 - 04/13/11 08:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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did u test the lc?
also, did u give it the sniff test before u used it? u shoot a little bit into a shot glass and swirl it under your nose.
-------------------- The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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Bom_Tombadil
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Re: WBS too dry leading to slow colonization? [Re: anonjon]
#14286411 - 04/13/11 08:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i never simmer any more and my mycelium grows like a mother fucker.i never add verm though. could be your lc just keep waiting maybe start some new jars while you are waiting.
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R_king
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Re: WBS too dry leading to slow colonization? [Re: Bom_Tombadil]
#14287836 - 04/14/11 12:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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No I jumped the gun and didn't test it for contams. It looked good though. What smell are you looking for when you test it?
With out simmering, how does your seed end up? Are they still hard or can you squish them? The verm is very minuscule compared to the amount of seed so I don't think its having any negative impact.
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Mycowlogist
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Re: WBS too dry leading to slow colonization? [Re: R_king]
#14288430 - 04/14/11 04:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The soaking is to help with moisture but it's mostly to trigger the endspore response (which hopefully is killed during the pressure cooking). The simmer is to bring the seeds to maximum field capacity.
When I cook my grains, I grab a spoonful and chew it. You will get a feel for what texture is correct after a few tries. Or take a spoonful and test each grain by seeing how easily it can be smushed. Some grains will burst when you are simmering, this is okay (%10-%15 is about what you want).
I personally feel thought that because of all the different seeds in the birdseed you increase the possibility of contams because the greater variable of endospores in each different kernel/grain. Also humidity levels will be different between one kernel/grain from the other. Even though it is relatively cheap, try to find a grain that is carried locally at a feed store (this will be even cheaper) that you can use. That way you can focus on truly mastering the proper prepping method for your seed.
-------------------- "And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." Honest Abe
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anonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: WBS too dry leading to slow colonization? [Re: Mycowlogist]
#14288514 - 04/14/11 05:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycowlogist said: The soaking is to help with moisture but it's mostly to trigger the endspore response (which hopefully is killed during the pressure cooking). The simmer is to bring the seeds to maximum field capacity.
When I cook my grains, I grab a spoonful and chew it. You will get a feel for what texture is correct after a few tries. Or take a spoonful and test each grain by seeing how easily it can be smushed. Some grains will burst when you are simmering, this is okay (%10-%15 is about what you want).
I personally feel thought that because of all the different seeds in the birdseed you increase the possibility of contams because the greater variable of endospores in each different kernel/grain. Also humidity levels will be different between one kernel/grain from the other. Even though it is relatively cheap, try to find a grain that is carried locally at a feed store (this will be even cheaper) that you can use. That way you can focus on truly mastering the proper prepping method for your seed.
This is some silliness. The soak is to hydrate the grains. It doesn't hydrate them all the way without a simmer, which is why you load them slightly wetter than if you had simmered. They absorb the rest during cooking and come out great.
The cheapest birdseed works out the best. 20 cents a pound at maenards. This guy is just making stuff up.
U can not trust an LC from sight alone. You can not, can not, can not. Test them on brf jars b4 u waste your time on them. And then still give them the sniff test even if they grow out ok on brf. You are smelling for a brewery smell / fermentation.
-------------------- The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
Edited by anonjon (04/14/11 05:38 AM)
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Perun
Mahapralaya...



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Re: WBS too dry leading to slow colonization? [Re: anonjon] 1
#14288740 - 04/14/11 07:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Not quite right...Soaking is not to add moisture to the grain(it is,but not at the level ppl think) it is to let endospores germinate. The reason we want them to do this is once germinated they can be killed at a much lower temp!
-------------------- First: Then:
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Mycowlogist
Freethinker



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Re: WBS too dry leading to slow colonization? [Re: Perun]
#14288827 - 04/14/11 08:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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anonjon I like your conviction Although, I haven't made anything up. All of my information is based on reading in the forums, and different grain preparation teks.
-------------------- "And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." Honest Abe
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anonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: WBS too dry leading to slow colonization? [Re: Mycowlogist]
#14289192 - 04/14/11 10:18 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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It's a bunch of horseshit you've gleaned 3rd party.
I don't have a microscope. And I don't need one to tell you that the length of the soak is irrelevent as long it hydrates the grains without germinating them.
That endospore crap is fantasy. Tell me exactly how long one should soak to kill the optimal number of endospores. Tell me how many grain jars you've lost because of these endospores germinating. It's silliness pure and simple.
-------------------- The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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anonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: WBS too dry leading to slow colonization? [Re: anonjon]
#14289210 - 04/14/11 10:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Since no one believes nething unless the rabbit says it here it is.
It's not the same exact thing I'm saying, but close enuff.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Two things are important to remember here.
1) Bacterial endospores are not a myth.
2) Not all bacterial endospores will germinate during the soak, and many of those that do will produce new endospores within a few hours, which can easily be observed with a decent microscope.
This means that if you soak too long, you may end up with more endospores than you started with, thus defeating the purpose.
You'll notice in the last few years, I've stopped dwelling on 'germinating the endospores' to 'hydrating the grain' during the soak. If you'll hydrate the grain AND the endospores, it seems to make them more succeptable to getting nuked in the pressure cooker.
The fact is, mushroom growing and the science involved is currently evolving. Anyone who claims to know all about mushroom growing is full of shit. As we learn more and new things, we have to let the old pass away and embrace the new knowledge. The advice I give today is often different than the advice I gave even a few years ago. That's known as progress and learning from mistakes, not contradiction. RR
The endospore crap is useless information. Whether it's true or not true, it has no meaning with regard to our grain prep. Hydrate the grain, cook the grain.
-------------------- The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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Bom_Tombadil
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Re: WBS too dry leading to slow colonization? [Re: anonjon]
#14293205 - 04/14/11 10:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
With out simmering, how does your seed end up? Are they still hard or can you squish them? The verm is very minuscule compared to the amount of seed so I don't think its having any negative impact.
you can add vermiculite to just about anything so i doubt that it has anything to do with your problem i was just saying i don't use it. my grain turns out hydrated you can probably squish them not as "fully" hydrated as grains that are boiled or simmered but with out the simmer i have no problem with wet soggy and exploding grains. Here is a link to the WBS preparation tek that i use to prepare my grains. I don't use any of the additives just water and WBS but im sure they work great.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5963507#Post5963507%C2%A0
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