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OfflineObey
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No Order to Alphabetical Order
    #14284296 - 04/13/11 02:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This is something that is baffling me.  We all know the alphabetical order from A-Z, but why is it ordered in that manor.  Why does A take precedence over B in regards to witch letter comes first.  I've scoured the internet to find some kind of explanation and found a few facts that don't really satisfy my question.  Apparently we're using the alphabetical order that has always been, with exception to characters that have been added and removed based upon the spoken language over the last 3000 years.  I know that the alphabetical order makes it easy to memorize the alphabet, but i still do not feel like this is enough of an explanation to suffice.  ???


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Anything that is posted by myself Obey is completely fiction.  Any pictures posted come from an external unknown source.



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Invisiblesjfrockerdude
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Re: No Order to Alphabetical Order [Re: Obey]
    #14284317 - 04/13/11 02:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That's kinda like asking why 1+1=2... I have no damned idea, I just go with the flow.


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"It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied.
Better to be Socrates dissatisfied then a fool satisfied.
And if the fool or the pig are of different opinion, it is because they only know their side of the question."
John Stuart Mill


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Invisibleifoundwaldo


Registered: 09/28/10
Posts: 8,389
Loc: Denver, CO Flag
Re: No Order to Alphabetical Order [Re: Obey]
    #14284318 - 04/13/11 02:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Probably because it evolved from the Old Latin alphabet.

I imagine the ordering of letters there was relatively arbitrary.


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OfflinePsy Baba
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Registered: 01/30/06 Happy 18th Shroomiversary!
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Re: No Order to Alphabetical Order [Re: Obey]
    #14284327 - 04/13/11 02:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

All labels are a made up thing by the ego that hold no actual value. :shrug:


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Sit up and meditate, there's no time to contemplate.
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I have an international Hitech Psytrance project with a friend: BioChronic
I make various form of Psytrance as a solo Project Dendriform


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OfflineObey
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Re: No Order to Alphabetical Order [Re: Psy Baba]
    #14284340 - 04/13/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DuNeRaVeR said:
All labels are a made up thing by the ego that hold no actual value. :shrug:




True, they may not hold value but they do hold definition.  I'm just trying to figure out the logic behind the sequence.


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Anything that is posted by myself Obey is completely fiction.  Any pictures posted come from an external unknown source.



Edited by Obey (04/13/11 02:39 PM)


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OfflinePsy Baba
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Re: No Order to Alphabetical Order [Re: Obey]
    #14284355 - 04/13/11 02:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Obey said:
Quote:

DuNeRaVeR said:
All labels are a made up thing by the ego that hold no actual value. :shrug:




True, they may not hold value but they do hold definition.  I'm just trying to figure out the logic behind the sequence.




study the Phoenicians  :shrug:


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Sit up and meditate, there's no time to contemplate.
-------------------------------------------------
I have an international Hitech Psytrance project with a friend: BioChronic
I make various form of Psytrance as a solo Project Dendriform


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OfflinePsy Baba
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Re: No Order to Alphabetical Order [Re: Psy Baba]
    #14284361 - 04/13/11 02:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The order of the letters of the alphabet is attested from the fourteenth century BCE, in a place called Ugarit located on Syria’s northern coast.[13]  Tablets found there bear over one thousand cuneiform signs, but these signs are not Babylonian and there are only thirty distinct characters. About twelve of the tablets have the signs set out in alphabetic order. There are two orders found, one of which is nearly identical to the order used for Hebrew, Greek and Latin, and a second order very similar to that used for Ethiopian.[14]

It is not known how many letters the Proto-Sinaitic alphabet had nor what their alphabetic order was. Among its descendants, the Ugaritic alphabet had 27 consonants, the South Arabian alphabets had 29, and the Phoenician alphabet 22. These scripts were arranged in two orders, an ABGDE order in Phoenician and an HMĦLQ order in the south; Ugaritic preserved both orders. Both sequences proved remarkably stable among the descendants of these scripts.

The letter names proved stable among the many descendants of Phoenician, including Samaritan, Aramaic, Syriac, Hebrew, and Greek alphabet. However, they were abandoned in Arabic and Latin. The letter sequence continued more or less intact into Latin, Armenian, Gothic, and Cyrillic, but was abandoned in Brahmi, Runic, and Arabic, although a traditional abjadi order remains or was re-introduced as an alternative in the latter.


--------------------
---------------------------------------------------
Sit up and meditate, there's no time to contemplate.
-------------------------------------------------
I have an international Hitech Psytrance project with a friend: BioChronic
I make various form of Psytrance as a solo Project Dendriform


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OfflineObey
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Registered: 10/19/08
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Re: No Order to Alphabetical Order [Re: Psy Baba]
    #14284405 - 04/13/11 02:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I really appreciate the explanation but it still kind of boils down my statement that the sequence of alphabetical order is just the ways that it's always been.  It seems like the alphabet is just so old that any recorded history on it's sequence seems to be nonexistent. 

I guess The Song Remains the Same.


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Anything that is posted by myself Obey is completely fiction.  Any pictures posted come from an external unknown source.



Edited by Obey (04/13/11 02:51 PM)


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Invisibleifoundwaldo


Registered: 09/28/10
Posts: 8,389
Loc: Denver, CO Flag
Re: No Order to Alphabetical Order [Re: Obey]
    #14284433 - 04/13/11 02:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well to us with a limited view of history, it's just the way it's always been.

But someone at some point put it together in the past.
And it was probably arbitrary.


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OfflinePsy Baba
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Re: No Order to Alphabetical Order [Re: ifoundwaldo]
    #14284442 - 04/13/11 02:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yep.

How do you make sense of you world in a relatable way without having any previous knowledge?

You make shit up.


--------------------
---------------------------------------------------
Sit up and meditate, there's no time to contemplate.
-------------------------------------------------
I have an international Hitech Psytrance project with a friend: BioChronic
I make various form of Psytrance as a solo Project Dendriform


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Invisiblepotgrrl
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Re: No Order to Alphabetical Order [Re: ifoundwaldo]
    #14284444 - 04/13/11 02:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ultimately, everything is arbitrary.

Somebody made it up, whatever it is.

Everything is made up, and it's only social reverence that gives it any power.

It's kinda screwed up if you think too deeply about it, so I try not to, except to remind myself that "everything is arbitrary" when someone makes a big deal of some socially-defined rule.


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Everything is arbitrary.  (me)


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OfflineObey
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Re: No Order to Alphabetical Order [Re: potgrrl]
    #14284476 - 04/13/11 03:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yea I guess i just don't believe that there is any real randomness to anything.  Every internal decision is based upon external experience witch defines logic to the individual.  But to know how the alphabet was originally ordered you would have to figure out the man that ordered it, witch seems pretty unlikely to happen.


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Anything that is posted by myself Obey is completely fiction.  Any pictures posted come from an external unknown source.



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Invisibleifoundwaldo


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Re: No Order to Alphabetical Order [Re: Obey]
    #14284488 - 04/13/11 03:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'll bet he was a megalomaniac.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: No Order to Alphabetical Order [Re: Obey]
    #14284499 - 04/13/11 03:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Obey said:
  But to know how the alphabet was originally ordered you would have to figure out the man that ordered it





I ordered an alphabet but the shipment never arrived, I'm out $29.95 plus the shipping and handling charges


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OfflineHumility
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Re: No Order to Alphabetical Order [Re: Obey]
    #14284500 - 04/13/11 03:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Convention is what you're looking for.  It's why we call 1 one and say that it comes before 2 two and after 0 zero.

What you want to specifically know about is OUR ALPHABET

You need to trace etymology to get to the source.

OUR ALPHABET is based on the LATIN ALPHABET ala ROMAN ALPHABET. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Alphabet

this is in turn based on the EUBOEAN ALPHABET

which is a later evolution of and divergence from the GREEK ALPHABET (specifically the "ANCIENT" GREEK ALPHABET)

This is reported to be the "first alphabet" of the "west" in terms of defined requirements to be called an "alphabet".

However, the GA was a script characters that represented vowels and consonants of speech.  These characters were given names and each was assigned a particular unit of speech so that spoken language could be written down conventionally and understood later.

The script that the GA used, the characters, were not originals, nor were the names.  The script used was Phonecian.

All of this goes back to Cuneiform and the Sumerians.

If the specific topic you're interested in is "Why are script orderings as they are", you'd want to start with Sumerian (If your interest is in "Western" language").


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OfflineObey
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Re: No Order to Alphabetical Order [Re: ifoundwaldo]
    #14284532 - 04/13/11 03:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe seth macfarlane went back in time and took his decision making manatees with him.  And thus was alphabetical order...


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Anything that is posted by myself Obey is completely fiction.  Any pictures posted come from an external unknown source.



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