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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Environmental Hypocrisy
    #14277124 - 04/12/11 09:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So there was a demonstration by militant environmentalists near here recently. One woman in particular stood out because of her vociferous opposition to eating meat and damaging the environment and all the rest.

What I found odd was that she had no less than six children in tow. Every one of them takes resources from the Earth. Each one will consume 50,000 kilograms of food and 9,000,000 liters of water in their lifetime. Times six that's a whopping 300,000 kilograms of food and 54,000,000 liters of water she has inflicted on our poor planet, not counting energy, space, clothing, sewage, landfill space and all the other resources people use.

How does someone who is concerned for the well-being of the planet reconcile that with adding six additional people (so far) to the ecosystem when there are already many children awaiting adoptions?

Can one of you environmentalist with kids splain that to me?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Posts: 45,414
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Diploid]
    #14277137 - 04/12/11 09:44 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

We need children for Soylent Green.


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Diploid]
    #14277148 - 04/12/11 09:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)



It's a peephole! (on reality)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #14277158 - 04/12/11 09:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Peephole. Peepholes who need peepholes, are the luckiest peepholes in the world. ~ Barbara Streisand


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OfflineRileyEverleigh
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Registered: 05/30/08
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14277165 - 04/12/11 09:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I am neither an environmentalist nor a parent. I doubt the woman has put much thought into it. The first thing that comes to my mind is that she believes having children is more natural than eating meat. And for her,things such as deforestation and mining are definitely less natural than having children.

Depends on your definition of natural though.


Oh environmentalists, they mean well...


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: RileyEverleigh]
    #14277765 - 04/12/11 12:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You can find hypocrites in just about every organization/movement, and in this case it doesn't detract from the validity of the cause itself.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: NetDiver]
    #14277822 - 04/12/11 12:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

it doesn't detract from the validity of the cause itself.

Oh I agree there. The validity of the cause is independent of the hypocrite who supports it.

I just think it's yet one more oddball human neurosis that someone concerned about the environment would inflict on the environment the harm six children will cause. Especially when there are already plenty of kids to adopt if she wants kids.

And don't get me started on the irrational desire to accept only children who happen to have a particular pattern of protons in their DNA that somewhat correlate with their own.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Diploid]
    #14277931 - 04/12/11 01:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
And don't get me started on the irrational desire to accept only children who happen to have a particular pattern of protons in their DNA that somewhat correlate with their own.


Why do you consider that desire to be irrational?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Poid]
    #14278062 - 04/12/11 01:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Because there are no rational reasons for preferring biological children over adopted ones. There are only emotional reasons.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Diploid]
    #14278339 - 04/12/11 02:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Can't serving one's emotions be a rational decision? Feeling good is the purest good there is.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #14278678 - 04/12/11 03:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think emotions are irrational by definition.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSleepwalker
Overshoes


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Posts: 5,503
Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Diploid]
    #14278933 - 04/12/11 04:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah I disagree with my self


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Diploid]
    #14282114 - 04/13/11 02:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Because there are no rational reasons for preferring biological children over adopted ones. There are only emotional reasons.


Isn't every reason for any action that any human performs an emotional one?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Poid]
    #14282200 - 04/13/11 03:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

People are taught to have kids... its almost the only purpose that is universally given to women (universal purpose for a man: find a beautiful wife and own stuff)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14282619 - 04/13/11 08:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Universally in your little culture? :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Poid]
    #14282778 - 04/13/11 08:59 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Isn't every reason for any action that any human performs an emotional one?

I suppose that's true. The REASON for making a decision is always emotional, but the RESULTING decision doesn't have to be.

I may decide to change jobs in order to improve my life (that's a motivation based on emotion: improving my life will make me feel better) but which employer to work for is a logical/rational one (which one offers objectively the most money, best benefits, shortest commute: parameters that are measurable and logically comparable).

The decision to have biological kids instead of adopted ones, is emotional on both levels.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineSimms
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #14282823 - 04/13/11 09:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)


One of my favourite social psychologists and experts on real social dynamics. And he isn't even wrong about calling vegetarians degenerates -- because it really means going a step back, because vegetarianism was before being carnivorus amongst primates from which we evolved. Our main ancestors were probably vegetarians also. So this really is not an insult.
Maybe he misheard the word, but I still laughed.





If that woman was a meat eater and an enviornmentalist, I would propose that she raised her children for food, but... The truth:

Ask yourself: Why be enviornmentalist?

The usual answer is: For better enviornment for everybody.

Now there are two people:
a) Better enviornment for all the others by sacrificing yourself.
b) Better enviornment for ones self.

It is my understanding that the woman belongs into group b. Therefore, the hypocricy is arguable. But this group creates another subgroups:
1) Better enviornment for ones self by even sacrificing yourself a bit, by having lesser kids for example, so that other kids could live happily. -- similar to group a, but one still lives for onesself, reasonably.
2) Better enviornment for all the things that matter to you and happen to you, in which case it is big, if not complete, egoism.

But group a creates another philosophical and moral problem:
What does sacrificing yourself mean? Again, four groups:
1) Those who only sacrifice themselves and make themselves completely irrelevant therefore.
2) Those who believe that everybody should sacrifice themselves, leaving the question, if no-one is left, who is to experience the enviornment?
3) Those who believe that only one species in which the particioner is, in this case, human, should be eliminated for better enviornment for all the others.
4) Those who believe that some other species besides their own should be sacrificed for the greater good for masses. -- This is common practice for the elimination of parasites, like Guinea worm, and various types of other hookworms. However, another form of it is just the subgroup 2 (and some cases 1) from group b, which makes some enviornmentalists really hard to define, since some groups are too similar on the crust.


The other question we get, is what means "better enviornment" in general. Probably, each individual has some idea of a perfect enviornment achievable, but that picture can vary very differently from person to person, it is very subjective matter. So, I propose that being an enviornmentalist really is an indiviualistic act.


--------------------


Edited by Simms (04/13/11 09:29 AM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Diploid]
    #14282946 - 04/13/11 09:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Isn't every reason for any action that any human performs an emotional one?

I suppose that's true. The REASON for making a decision is always emotional, but the RESULTING decision doesn't have to be.

I may decide to change jobs in order to improve my life (that's a motivation based on emotion: improving my life will make me feel better) but which employer to work for is a logical/rational one (which one offers objectively the most money, best benefits, shortest commute: parameters that are measurable and logically comparable).

The decision to have biological kids instead of adopted ones, is emotional on both levels.



What if having a biological kid is easier for someone than going through all the necessary red tape to adopt one?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #14283067 - 04/13/11 10:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Universally in your little culture? :lol:




I dont really understand this post.
Are you suggesting that I was talking about minority opinions?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Poid]
    #14283110 - 04/13/11 10:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What if having a biological kid is easier for someone than going through all the necessary red tape to adopt one?

In that case, it sounds like a rational decision, but I doubt that's often (if ever) true. Can you imagine carrying around for nine months a watermelon that makes you puke in the morning, then passing it through a nostril? :whoa:

I'll take the red tape, thank you very much! I could never be a woman. I'm too much of a pussy.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Diploid]
    #14283145 - 04/13/11 10:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:, I guess you're right; I concede. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Simms]
    #14286051 - 04/13/11 07:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

vegetarianism was before being carnivorus amongst primates from which we evolved

Are you sure about this? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I thought that the early hominids and pre-humans were omnivores.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Poid]
    #14286924 - 04/13/11 09:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I concede. :thumbup:




WTF

There is something very wrong here...  :lol:


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


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OfflineSimms
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Diploid]
    #14288104 - 04/14/11 01:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
vegetarianism was before being carnivorus amongst primates from which we evolved

Are you sure about this? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I thought that the early hominids and pre-humans were omnivores.




Possible, there are even signs of cannibalism, although cannibalism has been assosiated more with Neanderthals. But then again, Žižek is referring to degenerating to monkeys :lol:


--------------------


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Offlinepouihi
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Simms]
    #14288576 - 04/14/11 06:17 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

probably... the lady feels like:
1. contraceptives - unnatural;
2. Tubal ligation - unnatural;
3. Not having sex - unnatural.

Now put those 3togheter and you have a handful of infants.

Or she could in fact belong to that group of people that believe that a son is not a son if it doesn't have your genes, which (given the options she has) isn't altruist at all.


--------------------


"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: pouihi]
    #14288796 - 04/14/11 08:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

probably... the lady feels like:
1. contraceptives - unnatural;
2. Tubal ligation - unnatural;
3. Not having sex - unnatural.


Then she has no business denouncing manufacturing plants' dumping cyanide and arsenic into rivers as both those substances are natural as are the humans who run the plant.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinepouihi
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: Diploid]
    #14289291 - 04/14/11 10:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

who said she wasn't a hypocrite??


--------------------


"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."


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Offlinei like cow poo
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Re: Environmental Hypocrisy [Re: pouihi]
    #14291536 - 04/14/11 05:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Nobodys perfect. But I do think EVERYONE should try there BEST to not pollute the earth.:smirk:


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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