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OfflineNastyDHL
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: oxalic32]
    #14256244 - 04/07/11 10:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

an interesting question and its an idea that i've been thinking about lately

i think we all need to feel apart of a community. whether that community is love based or fear based is really up to the choices we make. so do we seek knowledge and the pursuit of truth out of fear or out of love?

if its out of fear then i think we spend time convincing others so that way we can help ground and stabilize ourselves while holding onto beliefs that you are pushing through as acceptable. because we can't just fall back asleep and drop what we are convinced of. but we can't just wake up either and see that what is true already is and any emotionally attachment to what we believe is true is not actually to truth but to our selves and our desires.

the truth can stand alone on its own....it doesn't need 'you' to fight for it...and if it was the truth than why would you need to fight for its existence as such because wouldn't it continue to be true regardless of whoever does or doesn't believe it?

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Invisible1minutehasgoneby
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: Frangelico]
    #14256310 - 04/07/11 11:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Frangelico said:
Trying to convince others about beliefs tends to only make them more firm in their own beliefs.




This is completely true. Especially when you win a debate and get the other person to join your side.

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: 1minutehasgoneby]
    #14257436 - 04/08/11 08:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

1minutehasgoneby said:
Quote:

Frangelico said:
Trying to convince others about beliefs tends to only make them more firm in their own beliefs.




This is completely true. Especially when you win a debate and get the other person to join your side.




My point exactly, we need communication.

Personally I'll even debate with close minded people, just for the benifit of open minded observors who can see through the situation and choose for themselves.

If one is proven wrong, they should own up to it if they are defending an idea and not their sheltered ego. Either way, close minded individuals are lost in a daze and will quickly forget the arguments.
If they can't remember their dreams, odds are they won't remember some random dude who offended them :shrug:

Odds that is....


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: oxalic32]
    #14257853 - 04/08/11 10:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

oxalic32 said:
Why spend so much time convincing?




Because the existence of other people with differing beliefs leaves the possibility open that your beliefs are wrong, and this is intolerable to the majority.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineMedici_head
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: deCypher]
    #14262751 - 04/09/11 11:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I was a Southern Baptist turned Spiritualist.  Before my transition, my beliefs were strongly about "convincing others" of the truth through Jesus Christ... During that period I became increasing unsettled about the outside world, never really looking within myself for the answers.  Now that I look back, Christianity was a stepping stone for me.  Spiritualism has taught me the next step, to look within myself and to search and convince myself of higher truths. I solely believe now that God will meet you where you are. 

medici


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Y o u ' r e  a l l  G o d s ;  Y o u ' r e  a l l  G o d s ;  Y o u ' r e  a l l  2  m i l l i o n  y e a r s  o l d . ~T. Leary

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OfflineXUL
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: deCypher]
    #14266619 - 04/10/11 11:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

oxalic32 said:
Why spend so much time convincing?




Because the existence of other people with differing beliefs leaves the possibility open that your beliefs are wrong, and this is intolerable to the majority.




As far as Christianity goes..

I was always under the impression they spread the knowledge because it was their duty as a Christian.

?

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OfflineFrangelico


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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? *DELETED* [Re: XUL]
    #14268321 - 04/10/11 06:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by Frangelico

Reason for deletion: a


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OfflineJoolz
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: Frangelico]
    #14270180 - 04/11/11 12:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I don't want to convince anyone of anything. I just want to be allowed to do my own thing assuming I'm not hurting anybody. But that's a big problem with most governments and religions.


--------------------
Prohibition didn't work for God; Eve ate the fruit.

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OfflineBoozerguyzer
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: Joolz]
    #14271597 - 04/11/11 10:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I like this topic as it's something that I've been noticing on even these forums.  Often times people will debate and get frustrated that the other person won't accept their view, then say something like "well perhaps if you didn't listen to your ego so much..." or "you are wrong but you don't know it because you haven't 'woken up' yet..." or my favorite "from a lower level of vibrational density I can see why you would think that."

I think ultimately it comes down to how you approach the unknown (that is, that which is unknown to you individually).  Is it a fight, a competition?  Are you trying to "win" and be "right?"  War requires shields for defense, weapons for offense.  War tells us that we are to find and exploit weaknesses of our opposition in order to win.  If I perceive the beliefs of another to be a threat to my understanding of reality, sure enough I've got my mind primed and geared up for a conflict where losing means the death of what you believe to be true.

But could we also approach the unknown in a more welcoming manner?  It certainly forces you to lower more of your guard and show more of your weaknesses to an idea that may or may not threaten you.  But if two people who have different views can sit down and say "we're both right, how can we build a bridge between these views?" then I think we'd be progressing in our understanding of the world much faster.

Everyone's view of the world is not rooted in some inherent quality of them like being stupid or ignorant or "a good person," it is instead the end result of their unique experience of life.  Everything you've ever lived adds up in an equation, you are the equals sign and what you project is the total.  No one is wrong, we just have differences.  How do we resolve differences?  Our brain does it by growing connections between neurons, and I think we can do this too with ideas exposed to the light of day.  We possess the ability to connect ideas instead of pit them against one another, and hopefully this will become more and more popular.


--------------------
"There was a time when I could not find, the spirit of God BEYOND the mind.  In retrospect the intellect is blind, it makes me think that I'm, the reason for all that's mine, even this rhyme I'm inclined to believe is from me, instead of being received. This is how we're deceived.  How am I more than dust? when it's your love that animates us?  Forever I will trust. Your love is better than lust. You. Live. Forever In Us." KRS ONE

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OfflineXUL
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: Frangelico]
    #14271714 - 04/11/11 11:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Frangelico said:
I think the major point of trying to convince is to ultimatly convert more christians, thus converting more "believers".  Thus, convincing and converting they somehow believe makes their own beliefs stronger and makes them a better christian, and this wins Gods favor for entry to heaven





That is what you see from your point of view.

I think that what your saying is kind of like assuming that Christians are bad people. That they all share alternate motivations for converting people. I am SURE that some Christians do think converting may win them into heaven. Then there are truly good Christians who do it because they want to share something that changed their life for the better.

I am Christian. And I do not concern myself with heaven. I do not do good things so I can go to good places. I do them because its nice to see a smile on somones face.

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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: XUL]
    #14271729 - 04/11/11 11:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
I am Christian. And I do not concern myself with heaven. I do not do good things so I can go to good places. I do them because its nice to see a smile on somones face.




Then what's the point of labeling yourself Christian?
Lots of people do nice things to see happiness in others.  It feels good and religion is far from necessary to pursue altruism. 
I'm not trying to attack you, just curious.

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OfflineCrashy
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #14273500 - 04/11/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

when i believe it, it gets included in everything
when i see it, everything gets included in it

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Invisibleahchela
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Registered: 03/01/11 Happy 13th Shroomiversary!
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: Crashy]
    #14273612 - 04/11/11 05:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"2+2=5"

"No it doesn't."

"Yes it does"

"If  you went to school you would know better."

"Truth is subjective."

"2+2 still equals 4."


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: ahchela]
    #14273650 - 04/11/11 05:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Seems to me that if 2 + 2 = 4 requires certain conditions to be true, such as specific schooling, perhaps it isn't as true as some of us would like it to be :lol:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: Kickle]
    #14274189 - 04/11/11 06:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Only if you want to argue for a lost cause or the sake of argument, if we're talking mathematics and not philosophy: there is only one right answer.

*edit: I should clarify further. If you ask an architecht who is planning a tall building which houses 400 people, if he would create his own mathematical language to get the job done. He would more than likely say no.

Not everything in life is cut and dry, but sometimes - it is very cut and dry.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

Edited by ahchela (04/11/11 06:54 PM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: ahchela]
    #14274226 - 04/11/11 06:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What is mathematics if not a philosophy that uses an alternative form of symbols to communicate ideas?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: Kickle]
    #14274240 - 04/11/11 06:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

An imperical, tried and true scientific system developed from theory. It is repeatable and communicable in its reliability, to the point of being not philosophy - but science.

*edit: sorry for another edit, but I just wanted to add that I'm not arguing needlessly. I'm curious what others have to say about this idea :peace:


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

Edited by ahchela (04/11/11 06:57 PM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: ahchela]
    #14274360 - 04/11/11 07:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not arguing, just trying to understand where you're coming from.
IMO you're wrong in your certainty that math isn't a philosophical system tho :tongue2:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: Kickle]
    #14274410 - 04/11/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not too certain about it, think I can prove my point wrong but theres a thread thats missing from the argument.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

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OfflineMedici_head
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Re: Why spend so much time convincing? [Re: ahchela]
    #14274494 - 04/11/11 07:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

One angle on this guys would be: yes or no, 1 or 0, here or there, present or not, one or the other - this is really the most fundamental level of everything... existent or not, quantum physics shows that you can have both, and actually everything is both! because of this, i would have to agree with both and disagree with you both.  can you have math without philosophy and vice-versa?

hmmm... time to light a pipe  :pipesmoke:


--------------------
Y o u ' r e  a l l  G o d s ;  Y o u ' r e  a l l  G o d s ;  Y o u ' r e  a l l  2  m i l l i o n  y e a r s  o l d . ~T. Leary

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