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Offlinemundane
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Psychedelic psychotherapy
    #14274475 - 04/11/11 07:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

To make this semi-brief, I had lots of issues with self-hate and depression for about fifteen years, which has caused all sorts of issues.  When I took my first psychedelic trip, it was like being shown an entirely new way that I could be, happy and peaceful and not at conflict with myself.  I'd forgotten I could feel that way.

Anyway, I became and instant convert and started learning from the masters.  When I read "TIHKAL", I was more interested in Ann's stories - those of breakthroughs witnessed as a psychedelic therapist.

I immediately went out and saw a hypnotherapist and learned about meditation, and how to use it to reshape the mind.  Listening to the meditations as she guided me through them, I started feeling better about myself and finally the depression lifted.

Things were still difficult, though.  It took a few months for me to combine the two, but now that I have, I don't take a trip without meditating at some point during it.  And I've found that this creates the perfect mindset for the deep work that I still feel I need.

But I'm not through the woods quite yet, and I would really like to do more of this deep psychological overhaul with someone.

(I did bring up using a psychedelic to one of the recorded sessions with my therapist, but she didn't seem to have experience with the combination [though she did recommend 'Remember Be Here Now' to me].)

I really want to find someone who can help me with this journey, a shaman of sorts who knows best how to work with psychedelics and meditation together to get great results.

Is there still an underground therapeutic movement out there like that?  How would I get into contact with it or a practitioner?  If you don't want to make it public, please send a PM. 

Thanks for checking this out.


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:mushroom2: Tips for a good trip :mushroom2:


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OfflineManicman
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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: mundane]
    #14290200 - 04/14/11 01:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, I'm actually wondering the same thing, so anyone with useful information pm me as well.


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: Manicman]
    #14291602 - 04/14/11 05:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Not exactly psychedelic psychotherapy, but modeled after it, Stanislov Grof uses holotropic breathwork. He used to do psychedelic therapy using LSD and even wrote a book designed as a manual for the practice, but has since decided that holotropic breathwork accomplishes the same goals and without the legality issue.

That is the best lead I know of. Grof has been very influential in some very interesting ways in psychology. He fought for and got a diagnosis of Spiritual Crisis into the DSM and works under the premise that many diagnoses can benefit more from spiritual work than from medications. He also has spent most of his academic life classifying and exploring altered states of consciousness.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: Kickle]
    #14300246 - 04/16/11 10:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Not exactly psychedelic psychotherapy, but modeled after it, Stanislov Grof uses holotropic breathwork. He used to do psychedelic therapy using LSD and even wrote a book designed as a manual for the practice, but has since decided that holotropic breathwork accomplishes the same goals and without the legality issue.

That is the best lead I know of. Grof has been very influential in some very interesting ways in psychology. He fought for and got a diagnosis of Spiritual Crisis into the DSM and works under the premise that many diagnoses can benefit more from spiritual work than from medications. He also has spent most of his academic life classifying and exploring altered states of consciousness.




I'm reading The Psychology of the Future, and Grof says at one point that he doesn't really know the efficacy of holotropic breathing for eliciting perinatal and transpersonal states. Psychedelics really ARE the way to go, but aside from former University of Miami professor Deborah Mash, using Iboga on some island in the West Indies, there is no legal Psychedelic Psychotherapy. The Native American Church does accomplish the same thing under the rubric of religion, but unless you're at least 1/8 Native American, you can't join. Like early Christians practicing under Rome in the protection of the catacombs (sacred ground, until Nero or Tiberius violated it), Entheogenic Enthusiasts are forced to practice underground, making them 'underworld' members of society - criminals and outcasts. In the words of Grace Slick, "We are all outlaws in the eyes of Amerika..."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: mundane]
    #14300289 - 04/16/11 10:19 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Back in college, before I was trained to be a therapist, I used to take friends on trips because I was familiar with the stages and levels and mental landscapes. I insisted that one hyperactive, moving-center-dominated jock friend remain in my tiny Fiat Spider, while listening to the Grateful Dead's Anthem of the Sun until he stopped trying to get out and turn the inner energy into kinetic energy. I watched him surrender - a brief but profound ego-death for him. I wouldn't be surprised if that moment stayed with him for years, and that must have been around 1973-74. That was a sort of unplanned Psychedelic Psychotherapy. I saw what he needed t transcend in order to experience 'more.'

Shamen go off and explore the inner worlds, and then, when sufficiently experienced, they can guide others, with the assumption that the same phenomena are available to everyone. Only later did I become a psychotherapist and hypnotherapist because even physicians with a DEA license to prescribe are unable to use psychedelics in psychiatric practice. My hope is that LSD will be available, at least in hospice care for the dying, because I personally would want my death-anxiety lessened or eliminated with its help. I am a 30+ year student of Yoga, more recently Qabalah, and of Hermetic philosophy - all of which are cognitive scaffolding for the Entheogenic Experience, for Holotropic states of awareness. Some scholars surmise that Yoga developed out of a scarcity of Soma. Bill Wilson's AA 12-Steps are a modified form of Patanjali's 8-limbs of Yoga because the multitudes were unable to take LSD like Bill did over a 4 year period. After the psychedelic has been experienced, we must all learn to elicit those states without the substance.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14305138 - 04/17/11 08:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I'm reading The Psychology of the Future, and Grof says at one point that he doesn't really know the efficacy of holotropic breathing for eliciting perinatal and transpersonal states.




Oh :frown:
Good to know.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineI AM SWIM
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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: Kickle]
    #14305318 - 04/17/11 09:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: I AM SWIM]
    #14305377 - 04/17/11 10:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I've never read this one. Toward a Psychology of Being is his most important work. Religions, Values and Peak Experiences is brief but was for many years standard reading for anyone taking psychedelics. In fact, that is where we got the term 'peak' or 'peaking' from with regard to tripping. I also read The Farther Reaches of Human Nature, and all three figured into my doctoral dissertation. Toward a Psychology of Being is very helpful in differentiating the multitudinous  "D-cognizers" from the relatively rare "B-cognizers" (Deficiency vs. Being). Also, the idea of "Self-actualization" is described - a psychological and attenuated version of Self-Realization that seems to be attainable by a lot more people.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14305518 - 04/17/11 10:37 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It is a very complex question and one I have explored for years, and still do! I find it a drag that there are not many critiques of Grof. he seems to be a bit of a 'god' in the psychedelic community, but I question that, and always feel uneasty when NOone critics someone who has great influence. There are two however--a guy called Kevin Shepherd, but I dont dig this guy because he is fanatically against Grof and ALL psychedelic experience, and his HB.

The other critic has been a great influence on my life, Monica Sjoo in her great book exposing the New Age-ists Return of the Dark/Light Mother or New Age Armageddon? Towards a Feminist Vision of the Future Ie., Sjoo says how he blames women and birth for all the troubles of the world--a typical patriarchal theme. Also he always mentions a so-called 'inner process' one must go through according to his dogma of 'realms of the human unconscious' which he terms Walpurgis Night. This really exposes his patriarchal bias, because here the 'witch' is maligned as being evil---as was the case in the Inquisition of women by the Church. You dont think this has an affect on the HB cultists? I used to belong to their online forum, and one guy who was an HB facilitator ranted that Harry Potter was evil and corrupted children! I asked too many questions, must be, and what they did was quietly stop my subscription to the forum lol

Grof makes out that in ORDER to have a 'genuine' healing experience one must be 'screened' for 'contraindications' and then be prepared for the feeling one is dying, being crushed, going all blotchy, etc and once one haas passed all the trials and gone through the 'purifying fire' will then go to the 'transpersonal realms'. Implying that when having accomplihsed this test you are initiated and dont have to experience those 'bad' realms everrrrr again.

I used to consume his books, and was feeling very obsessive that i NEEDED his psychedelic psychotherapy, which by that time was way past its legalality, and there was just HB. But IF you want to become an HB facilitator it is VERY expensive! Also the sessions are expensive too unless your well off, and they always were far from where i lived. So I did two sessions myself.

They are powerful I admit, but they brought on So much crying my eyes smarted for days after, and I got weird sensations o n the palms of my hand I didn't like.

So, what do I suggest then. Exploring like this :wink: Asking questions and exploring the reality we are in. Understanding that psychedelic experience is a continuum with this already magical reality you are part of now. So when you come to your preferred substance it is a meetingbetween you and it. IIT doesn't DO something TO you. The whole experience is a relationship which will continue. There is no magic finale where you have become 'the enlightened one'. the experience is enlightenment. You are seeing and feeling deeper and deeper, and then you integrate insights into your daily life.

What is it you want to explore? Talk to the substance and yourself before you take it--paying gtreat attention to set and setting--for that is your intent. TRUST the experience. it may and most likely will surprise you.
But you will also carry on being surprised as you open up to the ONGOING journey after your trip, and so it goes~~~


Edited by zzripz (04/17/11 10:42 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: zzripz]
    #14305659 - 04/17/11 11:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, I am suspicious of people who charge a great deal of money. It simply extends an elitism that originates with its founder. So even though I have referred to myself as a "Grofian Groupie" on occasion, I do resent those who create cults around themselves. It is not because I don't have my own cult, but because creating an elite is completely opposite the primary task of spiritual development, the reduction of the egoic-mind. What seems to happen around people with great "vision-logic" like Jung, Grof, or Tolle (to mention but a few), is that the ego becomes inflated instead, and being a great thinker, such people can justify their inflation by putting a spin on it. Now their fame and fortune is proof that 'God wants us to live life abundantly,' to paraphrase John 10:10 in principle.

Rather than traveling to Europe to learn Holotropic Breathing, it simples far more humble and simple to cultivate a friendship with a mushroom that humbly thrives on a pile of dung. I once utilized another fungal friend - ergot based - to experience a Perinatal Matrix; it was probably BPM III. I was shocked by return as a 19 year old man, and not a newborn. It was, as we say in hypnotherapy, a complete revivification. The transpersonal domains emerged first. I don't know if mushrooms could elicit what I experienced that day, but it is doubtful that breathing techniques utilizing carbon dioxide/oxygen balance would propel me there. BTW, I don't WANT to return to the womb. I got the point of Moksha, Liberation after that day so many years ago. I wouldn't want the responsibility of being a sole practitioner of such experiential therapy, under my counseling license anyway. people abreact enough just undergoing hypnotic regression to traumatic events OTHER THAN the primal trauma of birth. My exploration on high dose insufflated LSD was a crazy thing to do in terms of non-Grofian theories, so I owe a great deal to the man who clarified for me the most mind-blowing day of my life SINCE my birth day.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14305909 - 04/17/11 12:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I never took Grof as patriarchal at all. The Witch archetype is the symbolic representation of a negative relationship to the feminine or Anima. It isn't something encouraged, only something observed. And the reason it is observed is because it is a part of pathology, which is a primary focus of psychological analysis. Blame is a product of a pathological relationship to the experience and naturally will not allow one the sense of freedom from trauma that is so terribly sought. Doesn't mean that upon discovering a huge source of suffering we don't want to point the finger somewhere, only that finger pointing doesn't solve anything.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offline28064212
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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: Kickle]
    #14306544 - 04/17/11 01:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Stanislav's book and advanced layout of the psychedelic mind is brilliant.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: Kickle]
    #14307276 - 04/17/11 04:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I never took Grof as patriarchal at all. The Witch archetype is the symbolic representation of a negative relationship to the feminine or Anima. It isn't something encouraged, only something observed. And the reason it is observed is because it is a part of pathology, which is a primary focus of psychological analysis. Blame is a product of a pathological relationship to the experience and naturally will not allow one the sense of freedom from trauma that is so terribly sought. Doesn't mean that upon discovering a huge source of suffering we don't want to point the finger somewhere, only that finger pointing doesn't solve anything.




Quote:

It is important to note that some of Grof's commentaries on perinatal matrices are often sexist, bordering on misogynist. In his work he blames the aggression of the mother for trauma to the fetus. In particular his commentary on the "violence" of the birth and his presentation of the mother as an enemy of the fetus is, by today's standards, unacceptable (1976, pp. 104-105, 108, & 115). No doubt in some cases (dysfunctional mother, dysfunctional family situation) the mother may be superficial cause of perinatal trauma. However it is important to look to the social situation, political, economic, and even medical history to look for the actual roots of perinatal trauma. For example, raising a child in conditions of poverty would, without a doubt, cause significant perinatal trauma. In the case when society and the political structures fail to provide adequate supports for a parent (or parents) to raise a child in a stress free environment, it is the social and/or political structure that should be faulted and not the parent.”




Walpurgis Night was/is a Pagan festival celebrating Spring. Yet the way Grof paints it is he associates 'witches', the Inquisitional torturers slander of wise woman, and other participants with evil. He preaches about this in his books, talks, like clockwork. And soon the very name of that night becomes associated in the imagination as evil, and to be feared it becomes dogma, like his going on about his 'perinatal matrices'. This must have an influence on his 'clients', no?

Is it not odd that it is mostly men, with Grof at the helm, who are the authority of the psychedelic therapeutic community?
When I did a blog some time ago, about the expropriation of the sacred fruit of the Goddess by the esoteric patriarchal mystical schools, I noticed how few women were openly talking about entheogens. I emailed this question to Ann Bareing, and I speculated if it was because they were in some way fearful of talking about it. She agreed and said many women are still affected by the witch hunts, when wise women were the natural gathers of herbs with great knowledge about plants and healing.

So I am distrstful of the likes of Grof who as a psychiatrist --already a very powerful and potentially abusive position in this culture--to take on the mantle of a great White psychedelic guru.


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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: zzripz]
    #14307684 - 04/17/11 05:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I like the quote you presented because it highlights something I find important about Grof's work. The viewpoint being described is that of a very very young child, not an adult with contextual embedding for the situation. It is easy as an adult to recognize that it is not the fault of any particular person for the suffering that is life, but as a small child whos first experience is tremendous suffering linked to a particular stimulus, that higher degree of distinction does not yet exist. His works are descriptions of reliving this early state, not thinking about it as an adult. Merging the two viewpoints is paramount. The evilness that may come to be associated with the mother easily crosses genders and is not something to shy away from but definitely needs to be seen in the context it first occurred in. A child does not know why a trauma is happening, but they do have an instinct to avoid it. And that usually is related to stimulus pairing - touch a hot stove and get burned - stove touching is bad.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: Kickle]
    #14310476 - 04/18/11 04:56 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I like the quote you presented because it highlights something I find important about Grof's work. The viewpoint being described is that of a very very young child, not an adult with contextual embedding for the situation.




So, not clear. Are you saying that the person who was quoted pointing out Grof's misogynistic views, other feiminists who have, and myself are like little children who dont understand big daddy Grof and his devotees?

Quote:

It is easy as an adult to recognize that it is not the fault of any particular person for the suffering that is life, but as a small child whos first experience is tremendous suffering linked to a particular stimulus, that higher degree of distinction does not yet exist.




As an adult i KNOW that is definately the fault of a mindset that others, including animals and the earth are suffering!!
Quote:


His works are descriptions of reliving this early state, not thinking about it as an adult. Merging the two viewpoints is paramount.




But we ARE adults now, and if and when we 'relive' 'earlier states' this doesn't mean we actually ARE that early state, the child that we were. We are an an adult experiencing these memories of earlier states that are not EXACT but are intermingled with imagination, and this imagination can be influenced. For example false memory syndrome when its been claimed that adults who have been 'regressed' and believe they were molested by their parent and even both parents, are really imagining it.

Quote:

The evilness that may come to be associated with the mother easily crosses genders and is not something to shy away from but definitely needs to be seen in the context it first occurred in. A child does not know why a trauma is happening, but they do have an instinct to avoid it. And that usually is related to stimulus pairing - touch a hot stove and get burned - stove touching is bad.




I dont really understand you. I am questioning Grof's dogma of 'the realms of the human unconscious' where he puts much emphasis on the birth process, as though this is reponsible for war, etc etc.
Where in his books does he talk about how the andocentric medical profession, of which he is a part, persecuted, and mass murdered WOMEN who had been the natural midwives of the birth process, and wise women of the sacred plants?
NO. instead he carries on the patriarchal tradition of blaming women,both their birthing, and their role as wise women which he denigrates with his propaganda about Walpurgis Night.


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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: zzripz]
    #14310898 - 04/18/11 08:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Are you saying that the person who was quoted pointing out Grof's misogynistic views, other feiminists who have, and myself are like little children who dont understand big daddy Grof and his devotees?

Woah... I think we better cut the discussion off. That was certainly not what I intended at all. I am sorry you feel/have felt so persecuted. I know people take ideas all sorts of ways and do all sorts of things with the ideas. Christianity being front and center. I only wanted to discuss the ideas from my individual viewpoint. But if you feel that I am attacking you, then I will gladly bow out of this. I have no dog in the fight except intellectual curiosity.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: Kickle]
    #14312983 - 04/18/11 03:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

LOL, you think I am THAT sensitive? No mate I was just asking you. All we have are words in these places so we have to use them to find what people mean as I am not a mind reader. You have interpreted my questioning as me saying your attacking me, and I was just asking you not telling you.


Edited by zzripz (04/18/11 03:52 PM)


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: Psychedelic psychotherapy [Re: zzripz]
    #14313157 - 04/18/11 04:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

cool :thumbup:
a more direct answer is: No, that's not what I was saying at all.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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