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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14273037 - 04/11/11 03:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Fun fact:  The hijab(hair covering) was not widely worn in many Muslim countries until the British imposed a ban on them.  The women began wearing them, not as a sign of oppression, but a sign of resistance.

Frankly, this ban is stupid, and will likely lead to many adverse consequences.


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OfflineSimms
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14273040 - 04/11/11 03:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Suppose if I am a girl in france, and I am NOT a muslim, I still can not wear a damn burka?

What about men with burkas?

Muslims could still use masks though...


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14273042 - 04/11/11 03:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It is up to the people of france to determine which religious freedoms they want muslims to be able to express in france, and the people have spoken.

Exactly. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

I don't see any Muslims demonstrating against Saudi Arabia passing religious intolerance laws making Islam the only allowed religion.

In Saudi Arabia, holding a bible or wearing a cross is an arrestable offense. If French Muslims want parity, the law should allow burka-wearers to be thrown in jail instead of just a fine.


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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Simms]
    #14273354 - 04/11/11 04:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Simms said:
Suppose if I am a girl in france, and I am NOT a muslim, I still can not wear a damn burka?

What about men with burkas?

Muslims could still use masks though...




No burkas allowed for anyone.  Suppose you are a woman in Saudi Arabia, you can not drive, ride a bicycle, and you have to cover yourself with clothing from neck to toe.  You cannot wear pants or tight clothes, you must wear a long loose robe.  You also cannot be seen in public with a man who is not your husband or relative.  If you actually live there and are not just visiting, then you are considered the property of either your husband or your father and you may not go anywhere without the permission of the man responsible for you.

Which laws seem more restrictive?  Is banning burkas really unreasonable compared to the restrictions in Saudi Arabia.  France is trying to emphasize their difference from the sexist and restrictive muslim countries, and I think they have good reason to.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14273373 - 04/11/11 04:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The whole Saudi Arabia argument is a red herring.  Most of the world's Muslims hate the Saudi government anyway.

Let's put it this way:  Suppose bikinis were banned because they were considered oppressive to women.  Would you consider such a law liberating?


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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Silversoul]
    #14273536 - 04/11/11 04:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

No I wouldn't.  I don't see how a bikini could be considered oppressive though.  A bikini doesn't have any religious connotations.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14273615 - 04/11/11 05:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
No I wouldn't.  I don't see how a bikini could be considered oppressive though.



Ever heard of sexual objectification?  Feminists have been ranting about it for the past 40 years.

Quote:

A bikini doesn't have any religious connotations.



So?  What's that have to do with oppression?


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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Silversoul]
    #14273858 - 04/11/11 05:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I have heard of sexual objectification.  If bikinis were required to be worn by certain cultures or religions for the enjoyment of men, then I wouldn't care if france banned them.  However, nobody is required to wear a bikini.  It is a choice left entirely up to the women who wear them.

To be clear, I support france banning the burqa but I do not think the united states should.  France has a much higher percentage of muslims than the united states, and a huge proportion of new immigrants to france are muslim.  France has an understandable desire to protect its own culture from the sexist and overbearing culture of muslims.  Banning the burqa as the most extreme symbol of womens oppression makes sense.

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

A bikini doesn't have any religious connotations.



So?  What's that have to do with oppression?




Yeah, I didn't make the point of that statement very clear.  See paragraph above ^.  France is being inundated with muslims.  If they want to live in france, they should act like french people.  France is a secular society, and the burqa is an extreme religious statement.  Bikinis do not conflict with the values of the french, and burqas do.

As far as burqas in the united states go, I don't think they should be banned.  As long as there are laws in place to make sure that the men cannot force the women to wear them, that's good enough for me. Same for bikinis :wink:.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Simms]
    #14274016 - 04/11/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Just say no to the fez. :nono:


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OfflineSimms
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14274029 - 04/11/11 06:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
Quote:

Simms said:
Suppose if I am a girl in france, and I am NOT a muslim, I still can not wear a damn burka?

What about men with burkas?

Muslims could still use masks though...




No burkas allowed for anyone.  Suppose you are a woman in Saudi Arabia, you can not drive, ride a bicycle, and you have to cover yourself with clothing from neck to toe.  You cannot wear pants or tight clothes, you must wear a long loose robe.  You also cannot be seen in public with a man who is not your husband or relative.  If you actually live there and are not just visiting, then you are considered the property of either your husband or your father and you may not go anywhere without the permission of the man responsible for you.

Which laws seem more restrictive?  Is banning burkas really unreasonable compared to the restrictions in Saudi Arabia.  France is trying to emphasize their difference from the sexist and restrictive muslim countries, and I think they have good reason to.




Since Saudi Arabia has such harsh laws, there suddenly is justification to make odd harsh laws all over the world?


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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Simms]
    #14274035 - 04/11/11 06:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah obviously muslims don't mind harsh laws so its ok


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InvisibleToe_Jam
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #14274051 - 04/11/11 06:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So... what is the actual definition of Burka? If you wear a mask are you cool? Could Muslim women legally wear masks all the time to hide thier face instead? Or if someone wants to be a temporary sheet ghost (for Halloween, or shit, just anytime) are they subject to prosecution? Or do you have to be a Muslim wearing a sheet for it to be a Burka?


Quote:

Oweyervishice said:




Freakin hot.


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Of dreams that wave before the half-shut eye,
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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Toe_Jam]
    #14274190 - 04/11/11 06:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The ban prohibits anyone from covering their face in public, defined broadly to include not just government buildings and public transport, but all streets, markets and thoroughfares, private businesses and entertainment venues.



http://www.france24.com/en/20101007-french-burqa-ban-passes-last-legal-hurdle-constitutional-council-veil

I'm guessing they would be lenient on halloween.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Shroomerette] * 1
    #14274303 - 04/11/11 07:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
I have heard of sexual objectification.  If bikinis were required to be worn by certain cultures or religions for the enjoyment of men, then I wouldn't care if france banned them.



So because it's required in one country, it should be banned in another?

Quote:

However, nobody is required to wear a bikini.  It is a choice left entirely up to the women who wear them.



Right, but the same can't apply to burqas, right?  How do you not see the hypocrisy in this?


Quote:

To be clear, I support france banning the burqa but I do not think the united states should.  France has a much higher percentage of muslims than the united states, and a huge proportion of new immigrants to france are muslim.  France has an understandable desire to protect its own culture from the sexist and overbearing culture of muslims.  Banning the burqa as the most extreme symbol of womens oppression makes sense.



Are the Muslims requiring French women to wear burquas? If not, I don't see how they need to "protect" their culture.  Sounds like some right-wing ethnocentric bullshit to me.


Quote:

Yeah, I didn't make the point of that statement very clear.  See paragraph above ^.  France is being inundated with muslims.  If they want to live in france, they should act like french people.  France is a secular society, and the burqa is an extreme religious statement.  Bikinis do not conflict with the values of the french, and burqas do.



I see, so you think that the predominant culture should be imposed upon all people who want to move there?  And what about those who were born there?  Are they not French enough?  If you follow your argument to its logical conclusion, it leads to some very ugly consequences.

Quote:

As far as burqas in the united states go, I don't think they should be banned.  As long as there are laws in place to make sure that the men cannot force the women to wear them, that's good enough for me. Same for bikinis :wink:.



And I don't see why the same can't hold for France.  It's not like the Muslims are imposing the burqua on the French.  In fact, only a tiny minority of French Muslims wear the burqua.  Most choose the much more common hijab, or head scarf, which the French previously tried to ban without success.


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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Silversoul]
    #14274359 - 04/11/11 07:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry bud, bottom line is if the french people don't want women walking around in burqas then they don't have to allow it.  Obviously they don't want to see it. I didn't say it should be banned, I said I support the ban in france and understand the reasons behind it.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14274367 - 04/11/11 07:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
Sorry bud, bottom line is if the french people don't want women walking around in burqas then they don't have to allow it.



Legally?  Of course they don't have to allow it.  Morally?  The law and the reasons and behind are pretty repugnant.

You know, in the 1930's, America felt that the influx of Mexican immigrants was impinging upon their culture.  They used this strange, foreign substance called marijuana, which was corrupting America's white youth.  So they banned it.  And if the Mexicans don't like it, they can geeeeeeeet out.  Right?


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Edited by Silversoul (04/11/11 07:25 PM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Silversoul]
    #14276816 - 04/12/11 07:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Sounds ok to me.  Islam is a pox on Europe, they need to fight to preserve their culture.  (Although, this is too little and too late.)



Right, because banning the burqa will totally make Islam go away.




No, but it sends a message that the fundamentalists strains of Islam are not to be tolerated.  France isnt about free speech and freedom or religion like america is.  They have a different culture and a different way of life, they arn't americans.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14276860 - 04/12/11 08:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How is removing the right for women to choose to wear a burka relieving an impediment to their freedom?

They aren't forced to wear it, they wear it because that is their religion. In some countries it is forced, but the conversation here should be on preventing laws that force anything upon anyone, no? Is that not freedom?

Basically this law says "Ok women, we men who run the government know that you are going to submit to your arab male dominators, so we're going to stop you from practicing that religion to its fullest extent. You're better off, girls."

"If bikinis were required to be worn by certain cultures or religions for the enjoyment of men, then I wouldn't care if france banned them.  "

Women are enjoyed by men too but we don't go banning them. We take steps to ensure that enjoyment is voluntary on the part of the woman.


Edited by xFrockx (04/12/11 08:05 AM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: xFrockx]
    #14276938 - 04/12/11 08:44 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

They aren't forced to wear it, they wear it because that is their religion

It's just as likely that they wear it because their husband will beat the shit out of them if they don't.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Diploid]
    #14276962 - 04/12/11 08:52 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

France already has laws against domestic abuse for that red herring.


Please, its islamaphobia/xenophpobia. That is what this is. If you want to be a bigot, fine, but this is not really the place for it (lol).

Edited by xFrockx (04/12/11 09:08 AM)

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